De Please Change Ogris Ammo Type Already. Srsly

[NikolaiLev]

 

I think that ammo exists to make you switch weapons.. that is its primary purpose. But it shouldn't be a balancing factor.

 

Ammo exists to force you to conserve it.  It punishes you for poor aim.

 

It's an important aspect; that's why heavy weapons should have low ammo capacity.  Honestly, 72 is too much; I'd say 30 or fewer would be fine.

[Otaiken]

Ammo exists to force you to conserve it.  It punishes you for poor aim.

 

It's an important aspect; that's why heavy weapons should have low ammo capacity.  Honestly, 72 is too much; I'd say 30 or fewer would be fine.

 

You never run out of ammo with Aklex... should Aklex have 50 max ammo? Saying that ammo efficient weapons should have only so much ammo so they WILL run out of ammo is completely ludicrous.

 

I also don't think that Warframe's shooting mechanics are very good.. they're average at best. This is no hardcore game.. you shouldn't even have to conserve your ammo.. and indeed you don't have to.. unless you miss at purpose or use bullet hoses like Vipers or Grakata.

Edited January 9, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[NikolaiLev]

You never run out of ammo with Aklex... should Aklex have 50 max ammo? Saying that ammo efficient weapons should have only so much ammo so they WILL run out of ammo is completely ludicrous.

 

The Aklex doesn't have innate AoE.

[Makya]

The Aklex doesn't have innate AoE.

Even if they did, wouldn't be the point. Aklex are twin PISTOLS hance they use pistol ammunition. The Ogris and Penta are not rifles, they are something special, hence they should use the special ammunition, called Sniper Ammunition which current covers: Sniper rounds, Arrows, Metal Disks.. The catch all.

[Brimir]

The Aklex doesn't have innate AoE.

 

Exactly. The damage potential in one Ogris/Penta projectile is far beyond most other weapons. It is utterly ridiculous that you get 20 Rockets/Grenades back per pickup.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Brimir

[NikolaiLev]

Even if they did, wouldn't be the point. Aklex are twin PISTOLS hance they use pistol ammunition. The Ogris and Penta are not rifles, they are something special, hence they should use the special ammunition, called Sniper Ammunition which current covers: Sniper rounds, Arrows, Metal Disks.. The catch all.

 

I'm glad we agree.  :3

 

I still think 72 extra rounds is too much for launchers.  But it's something.

[Otaiken]

The Aklex doesn't have innate AoE.

 

Yeah.. the AoE is part of the reason why those weapons are efficient. You're proposing that the ammo count should be so low that you would be FORCED to run out of ammo.. even if your aim is good.

 

Hence why I'm asking.. should the ammo count of other weapons be tweaked too? So you are forced to run out of ammo unless you hit every headshot on every enemy ever?

[Magmahunter]

Ammo exists to force you to conserve it.  It punishes you for poor aim.

 

It's an important aspect; that's why heavy weapons should have low ammo capacity.  Honestly, 72 is too much; I'd say 30 or fewer would be fine.

 

the max ammo pool is defined by the type of ammo a weapon uses.

[NikolaiLev]

Yeah.. the AoE is part of the reason why those weapons are efficient. You're proposing that the ammo count should be so low that you would be FORCED to run out of ammo.. even if your aim is good.

 

Hence why I'm asking.. should the ammo count of other weapons be tweaked too? So you are forced to run out of ammo unless you hit every headshot on every enemy ever?

 

You wouldn't be forced to run out of ammo.  But it'd be brought in line with other weapons.  30-40 max ammo with a launcher with 2-5 rounds per sniper ammo pickup would still give you plenty of damage potential.  That's not even counting things like ammo mutator or sniper scavenger.

 

They deal excellent damage with innate AoE.  There should be a drawback, and self-damage is not a good enough drawback (especially when it turns into a benefit with Link involved).

[Makya]

Yeah.. the AoE is part of the reason why those weapons are efficient. You're proposing that the ammo count should be so low that you would be FORCED to run out of ammo.. even if your aim is good.

 

Hence why I'm asking.. should the ammo count of other weapons be tweaked too? So you are forced to run out of ammo unless you hit every headshot on every enemy ever?

Lowering the Ammo count to 72 with the Penta/Ogris will not cause them to run out of ammo. Heck, I can finish a lv 30-33 mission with just my Paris Prime and not run out of ammunition of I take time with my shots, as long as it isn't Defense never tried defense there with just a bow solo. So how would lowering the Ammo count 'force' you to run out of ammo?

[Brimir]

Personally I think a good benchmark to aim for is the point where the player has to ask himself:

 

"Hmm... do I really want to waste a rocket/grenade to take out a single bad guy, or should I take him out with my pistol secondary instead?"

[Otaiken]

You wouldn't be forced to run out of ammo.  But it'd be brought in line with other weapons.  30-40 max ammo with a launcher with 2-5 rounds per sniper ammo pickup would still give you plenty of damage potential.  That's not even counting things like ammo mutator or sniper scavenger.

 

They deal excellent damage with innate AoE.  There should be a drawback, and self-damage is not a good enough drawback (especially when it turns into a benefit with Link involved).

 

In line with other weapons? I have Shred on my Burston Prime.. I can cut down entire group of enemies with three bursts. So the guy with Penta is forced to search for ammo after he kills several groups while I don't have to do the same thing? I can cut down those groups just the same.. it might take 0.5 second longer.. but it's no problem really.

 

It would just make those weapons more annoying to use. Collecting ammo is not fun.. plain and simple.

 

The drawback of those weapons is limited range and terrible speed. The self damage is an issue because you can't quickly kill enemies that are close to you.. limiting your survivability and forcing you to get distance. The DPS and flight time are also pretty bad.. I often manage to kill ENTIRE GROUP of enemies before the poor guy's grenade even reaches them AND I can still defend myself at close range.

 

Those weapons have many weaknesses.. it's not just self-damage.

 

Ogris, Penta have their uses but they are not SO great that they would warrant having 30 ammo... that would just make using them annoying to use.. for no reason.

Edited January 9, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Brimir]

Those weapons have many weaknesses.. it's not just self-damage. 

 

Such as...?

[SIDESTRE4M]

He did explain this to you in the other thread about Penta.

 

If you use Penta, you have to bring a potent sidearm or you are done for, because if enemies close in, you have to switch weapons or you kill yourself.

 

Example: Void defence, the laser moas closed in to the pod and you just cannot shoot them with Penta/Ogris, because it will kill you. So you have to run away from the pod (most likely in hordes of other enemies) or just switch.

 

So you either have to play that that doesn't happen or you have to rely on your sidearm/melee for those situations. Thiis involves tactical positioning and thinking.

 

It looks like people are thinking, the ammo capacity makes it easy for those using launchers, but that have never been the case in the first place.

Edited January 9, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[SquirmyBurrito]

You can run out of ammo in each of those games if you focus on spray and pray. You said yourself the targets give ammo when you kill them, but you only get ammo on return if you are careful of how much ammo you send in killing them. Using BioShock as a good example, you only get the ammo they were using, so using such logic you should only get Ogris ammo from using using a similar weapon(which is why several weapon in Bioshock were not used often as ammo for them was scarce, their chaingun and their missile launcher were the most heavily effected by this).  So going back to focusing on your point, you are given so much ammo you never run out, that holds true for every WF weapon from such a vague statement because if you are careful with your shots you will almost always make bank by the end of the mission, even with Vipers.

 

You can also run out of ammo with an Ogris if you focus on doing it. And that is a clear lie in regards to the Twin Vipers. You can be as careful as you want, unless you just avoid killing enemies you are going to run out of ammo. I think the only way to avoid this would be playing low level missions and avoiding most of the enemies. 

 

I don't see your point. Are you saying every weapon in WF should run out of ammo unless you are careful with your ammo consumption? Isn't that the same basic idea they were trying when they nerfed stamina originally? Forcing players to run out of a resource never goes over well. As long as I can stand in one spot and shoot for days without running out I'm fine with it.

[Otaiken]

Such as...?

 

They are so horrendously slow.. especially in bigger rooms. Slow firerate, slow travel time.. that's why you need the AoE.

 

In a big room I can pick off a group of 10+ enemies.. one by one on a distance before the penta grenade even manages to get there. And that's assuming the user will even hit them on that range. It's not hitscan lazor.. you have the curve with Penta and you have to judge the distance pretty well.. or lead with Ogris.. but the rocket is so slow that you might as well close the distance some.

 

On close range when I get surrounded I can cut my way out of enemies. What can the Penta user do? He can't open fire at that distance he would kill himself. He either has to fire behind them and time the detonation.. which takes forever (mind that those enemies are still shooting at him) and then detonate. Even such a short time can and WILL kill you on higher levels.. especially if you have squishy frame.

 

So you have weapon that is unusable on short range and almost unusable on long range.. so there you have that short strip of range where you are most effective. That is not very versatile.. you need positioning and think ahead. That's a skill too.. it's not just aim.

 

It's slow to clean up big units... and you won't be able to oneshot them for long. When there's two heavies in front of me I have to destroy them quick. Hell, even Wipers are better here. Sure, it's not ammo efficient but they're dead quickly. Penta.. as always takes forever.. grenade after grenade. And ever tried standing there charging rockets while two heavies shoot at you?

 

And if you have your weapons formad to the point where you can oneshot high level heavy units? Well, then it's okay in my book.. you earned it.

Edited January 9, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Rafarix]

I agree with LocoWithGun,

 

These weapons are essentially can't be use in close range at all.

 

Just because it works well with one warframe doesn't mean it needs a nerf. I can say something like Supra/Gorgon/Grakata needs a nerf because it's too op with Mag's Bullet attractor. Rewind the clock to when Clan tech was first released the torid was pretty powerful when Vauban used it on enemies in vortex, does that mean it should be nerfed too?

 

To build off of LocoWithGun:

It's not just self damage it is killing yourself with a fairly modded Ogris/Penta. When using it solo you really have to be carful on how you're using it. It only take one mistake.

 

They both have travel time, and the penta requires the user to arc it correctly to reach its target.

 

Penta can only shoot a max of 5 grenades out, 3 if you have multishot.

 

Ogris has a charge time in between shots and can "jam" enemies especially infested can really close in on you when you're charging up the rocket.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Rafarix

[Brimir]

They are so horrendously slow.. especially in bigger rooms. Slow firerate, slow travel time.. that's why you need the AoE.

 

In a big room I can pick off a group of 10+ enemies.. one by one on a distance before the penta grenade even manages to get there. And that's assuming the user will even hit them on that range. It's not hitscan lazor.. you have the curve with Penta and you have to judge the distance pretty well.. or lead with Ogris.. but the rocket is so slow that you might as well close the distance some.

 

On close range when I get surrounded I can cut my way out of enemies. What can the Penta user do? He can't open fire at that distance he would kill himself. He either has to fire behind them and time the detonation.. which takes forever (mind that those enemies are still shooting at him) and then detonate. Even such a short time can and WILL kill you on higher levels.. especially if you have squishy frame.

 

So you have weapon that is unusable on short range and almost unusable on long range.. so there you have that short strip of range where you are most effective. That is not very versatile.. you need positioning and think ahead. That's a skill too.. it's not just aim.

 

It's slow to clean up big units... and you won't be able to oneshot them for long. When there's two heavies in front of me I have to destroy them quick. Hell, even Wipers are better here. Sure, it's not ammo efficient but they're dead quickly. Penta.. as always takes forever.. grenade after grenade.

 

And if you have your weapons formad to the point where you can oneshot high level heavy units? Well, then it's okay in my book.. you earned it.

 

Those are all fine and dandy, but they don't excuse infinite ammo. Not by a long-shot.

[Makya]

You can also run out of ammo with an Ogris if you focus on doing it. And that is a clear lie in regards to the Twin Vipers. You can be as careful as you want, unless you just avoid killing enemies you are going to run out of ammo. I think the only way to avoid this would be playing low level missions and avoiding most of the enemies. 

With tap fire and focusing on Grineer headshots you can easily do this with a corrosive build at lv 30, though this actually becomes trickier  to do with lethal torrent from how much faster the fire rate is, but doable. I also use seeker so when I can I kill pairs of units at a time, though in survival clearing a hall with short bursts is really satisfying. It really rests in your Mod lay out though if you get unlucky and end up never finding pistol drops(for me they drop almost like candy) or if you use a carrier which has you waste ammo pick ups (it will use all clips in range to reload your missing 15, having you waste so many bursts worth of shots). I wouldn't bother with this tactic in Towers as you can't build to be against them and are often swarmed more than in missions.

 

 

I don't see your point. Are you saying every weapon in WF should run out of ammo unless you are careful with your ammo consumption?

Yes. It gives purpose to weapons who specialize in efficiency over damage output as well.

[Otaiken]

Those are all fine and dandy, but they don't excuse infinite ammo. Not by a long-shot.

 

And your arguments excuse cutting ammo to 30-40? Like the suggestion I was initially replying to...

[Otaiken]

Yes. It gives purpose to weapons who specialize in efficiency over damage output as well.

 

That makes no sense whatsoever. If you lower your damage output you lower your ammo efficiency.

 

Less damage per ammo spent = less efficiency.

 

So simply stacking more damage on yor weapons makes them ammo efficient. Having less damage per ammo spent makes them less efficient...

 

So how do you specialize in efficiency over damage output? Sure you can have more max ammo.. but that will prevent you from putting more damage in... making your weapon less ammo efficient. Penta and Ogris are efficient BECAUSE of their damage and AoE.. and the AoE is balanced by how slow they are. If they didn't have AoE they would be useless.. even with the huge damage their DPS would be terrible.

Edited January 9, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[SIDESTRE4M]

Those are all fine and dandy, but they don't excuse infinite ammo. Not by a long-shot.

 

So what is you problem with it then? The limits are there. What does it hurt you, that they have 500 rockets, they aren't "able" to use anyways...

 

We are just trying to tell you, that focusing on the just the ammo will achieve nothing at all.

Edited January 9, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Makya]

That makes no sense whatsoever. If you lower your damage output you lower your ammo efficiency.

 

Less damage per ammo spent = less efficiency.

 

So simply stacking more damage on yor weapons makes them ammo efficient. Having less damage per ammo spent makes them less efficient...

 

So how do you specialize in efficiency over damage output? Sure you can have more max ammo.. but that will prevent you from putting more damage in... making your weapon less ammo efficient.

I said weapon not mod. In this case you can compare say the Braton to the Latron. The Latron is built to be more ammo efficient than it is for damage, it will not match the Braton in damage per second but it does several times as much per shot. Damage focus vs Efficiency.

[NikolaiLev]

He did explain this to you in the other thread about Penta.

 

If you use Penta, you have to bring a potent sidearm or you are done for, because if enemies close in, you have to switch weapons or you kill yourself.

 

 

So... just... run away?

 

Players are never short on mobility.  It's not like enemies have snares or CC of any sort, unfortunately.

 

It's really not a significant drawback.

Edited January 9, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[SquirmyBurrito]

With tap fire and focusing on Grineer headshots you can easily do this with a corrosive build at lv 30, though this actually becomes trickier  to do with lethal torrent from how much faster the fire rate is, but doable. I also use seeker so when I can I kill pairs of units at a time, though in survival clearing a hall with short bursts is really satisfying. It really rests in your Mod lay out though if you get unlucky and end up never finding pistol drops(for me they drop almost like candy) or if you use a carrier which has you waste ammo pick ups (it will use all clips in range to reload your missing 15, having you waste so many bursts worth of shots). I wouldn't bother with this tactic in Towers as you can't build to be against them and are often swarmed more than in missions.

 

 

Yes. It gives purpose to weapons who specialize in efficiency over damage output as well.

 

Pistol drops are hella rare for me. I get tons of sniper rifle and rifle ammo drops though. I've been using the Twin Vipers (and now their wraith variant) for quite some time now. I have yet to find myself with an abundance of ammo unless I have a Nekros on my team.

 

How does that even work? Can you give me some examples of weapons that focus on damage output yet are inefficient as far as ammo goes? We're talking damage per shot, right?