An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Guest Shibboleet]

I see the mention that achieving Mastery 30 being 3-4+ years away given the current rate at which DE releases items to level is more an example of careless, poorly thought out, and rushed game design than anything else. Along the lines of them saying, "Well, the max rank for weapons and frames is 30, so let's set maximum Mastery at 30." They seemed to make the decision and implement it into the game before even doing the simple math that would cause the realization that at the way mastery currently escalates over 4 times the number of weapons, sentinels and frames that are presently in the game will need to be released before anyone can achieve the maximum Mastery Rank.

 

I hope this was an oversight stemming from rushed game design, which ended up in a rather sloppy mess, like so many other things that have been added or changed in this game. I sincerely hope it was not carefully considered before being released since I see no possible reason that someone with over 2000 hours in game, should be less than 25% of the way to the maximum rank.

 

I agree, this would be a much more urgent issue if Mastery Rank meant something, (anything,) more than being able to access weapons, have more trades per day, and being able to deploy more Extractors.

I see it as 'planning ahead' more than rushing. Don't look too much into it.

[Zaresin]

Once again, not speaking for anyone, least of all you. The letters are from veterans, outlying the concerns of people who have the familiarity with the game and its mechanics that comes from, 500, 1000, 2000+ hours in the game. If you want to share the perspective of a player who barely has 100 hours in the game with DE, I for one encourage you to do so. But what the veterans are trying to accomplish here stems from our experience from time spent playing the game.

If I saw letters like these when I barely had 100 hours playing the game, I would recognize I didn't have as much experience with the game or dealing with DE to criticize those who have been here 5,10, 20+ times longer than I have. It's a shame you do.

Lmao...not helping your stance bubba....bf has played this game way longer than I have and has founder status. I only got into this game because he bugged me and I found I enjoyed it but have watched him play it since March(or was it April? Crap he's gonna be mad I forgot when we started dating...hope he doesn't see this). Just because my account is new..doesn't mean I haven't seen or experienced a large portion of the game via other sources/means. Lose the arrogance..it actually is hurting your message. Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

So because I didn't AFK in-game enough time, suddenly I'm not considered a veteran even though I played Warframe since closed alpha and made my own account account during closed beta? What gives you the right to define and group veteran players and deny others? I've never claimed to be a top player, but I most certainly am a veteran player; regardless of your personal made-up prerequisites which are just plain absurd and arrogant to begin with.

 

My point being is that reaching out to DE and giving them time to consider it seems like a better approach rather than submitting several open letters. Because an open letter is meant to be read by a wide audience, whereas your target group is DE and not the community itself. Since this isn't some democracy where we can just re-elect people into DE that would represent your interests.

 

Once again, you don't know me. If you did, you would realize I never go AFK, in fact I've reported those who have which have resulted in 2 three day suspensions, and one permanent ban.

 

I'm sorry if this offends you, but if someone has been here since closed Alpha, but has less than 200 hours of time in game, then you really haven't played the game long enough or consistently enough to be considered a veteran.

 

If you want to take a different approach than we are taking, you have my support and encouragement. But once again, you don't know me, or likely any of the other veterans who are working together to hopefully get our point across to DE. If you had then you would know that we have tried every other avenue available to us before resorting to taking this to the forums; including frequent and regular email or voice conversations with multiple developers. Yet, what we have repeatedly conveyed has up to this point gone unheeded. So trying to rally the support of the entire community around the issues the prominent veterans have taken the time to write out in these letters, is our last resort to finally affect some change by DE. If no change is forthcoming, you don't have anything to worry about. Most of us won't be here much longer.

[Zaresin]

Once again, you don't know me. If you did, you would realize I never go AFK, in fact I've reported those who have which have resulted in 2 three day suspensions, and one permanent ban.

Calling bullS#&$ on this considering all account penalties is private between the owner of the account and DE. And if you got someone suspended...why would they even talk to you to begin with.....

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

Dude. You're coming across as a bit of a jerk. Possibly not what you intend. But seriously, just stop claiming to be speaking on behalf of more than you actually are. You're trying to pretend your personal feedback is worth more than others, but really it isn't. It's just your feedback. Give it, and keep it in perspective. Stop trying to pretend to speak on behalf of others who might not share your view.

 

Please show me one instance where I say I speak for anyone other than those who have asked me to speak on their behalf. None of whom have been named, because they don't want to go public at this time. If you check my forum activity, I hardly ever posted here until recently since, I too prefer not to go public, but as one of the most visible veterans in the game, it sort of fell upon me to get this effort started. Maybe if you bothered to read the first letter, you would realize that I don't claim to speak for the entire community or even all the veterans. I'll make it easy for you, it's the first sentence.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/161764-an-open-letter-to-de-from-your-veterans/

[SpFinX]

And why havent you praised them yet?

I find it interesting that for the stuff they adjusted you refuse to even mention it. 

That says a whole lot.

Because we are testers. We find bugs. We find weak points. We find inconvenient mechanics. We report them, blame them and rant about them.

 

If we aren't blaming something, then it's perfect (or, at least, good enough).

[harly]

Please show me one instance where I say I speak for anyone other than those who have asked me to speak on their behalf

 

Sure:

 

"AN OPEN LETTER TO DE FROM YOUR VETERANS #2"

 

Try to be more specific. Because it's just obvious you're trying to give much more weight to your words than they should have.

 

You might also want to stop accusing other people of having less valid opinions because they don't meet your arbitrary and somewhat ridiculous distinctions of what is and isn't a veteran.

 

Or just keep going as you are. It hurts your message. And I, and others, will continue posting to clarify that we don't agree with you, we are veterans as well, and you do not represent us.

 

Looking forward to letter #3 of #7.

[--collstro--]

Calling bullS#&$ on this considering all account penalties is private between the owner of the account and DE. And if you got someone suspended...why would they even talk to you to begin with.....

Call it whatever you want.

 

Edit: Photo removed by author

 

And for the record it was never my intent to get anyone banned or suspended. It was only my intent that DE put a stop to the cheating and exploiting which affected multiple leaderboards at that time.

Edited January 12, 2014 by --collstro--

[(PSN)Xuiryus]

Quoting Megan from the above image. "What's done is done and this does not need to be continued."

 

Go back and look over the replies to this thread "veterans" and see how skewed and misrepresented your message is after other players have spoken up against you and in the defense of the developers.

 

Maybe when you return for letter #3 it will be better received after much revision. 

[Luminati07]

This right here is one of the reason why people are speaking against you. Just because you've played the game longer you believe that gives you more of a right to be heard. You're just a player like the rest of us regardless of the number of hours spent playing the game.

It doesn't have anything to do with amount of hours played. Nor does it have anything to do with arrogance.

 

For those who have recently joined, it's very hard to get a grasp on the issues that most of the "veterans" have experienced.

Things that happened between February (when I joined) and now are plentiful. If you joined 6+ months after that, you just don't have a firsthand experience of what the vets talk about.

 

I do not think my words carry more weight than someone who has played for 10 hours or 100 hours, but, there are some issues that some players just don't understand as well as the older ones.

 

I've seen excellent posts by PS4 players who outline some issues with the game. I've seen terrible posts by PS4 players.

I've seen amazing posts by veterans. I've seen horrible posts by veterans.

 

People who recently joined can post whatever they please, but when they try to act like they know every little detail that the vets know, that's when things get heated.

Why? Because they don't. Simple as that.

 

*Edit*

For example.

 

If I suddenly started playing World of Warcraft (never played it before), played it for about a month, then took to the forums and effectively just denied everything the veterans of the game say, and just tell them they are arrogant and just looking for attention, do I honestly know what they are talking about?

 

No, I do not. Why? Because I wasn't there.

I can outline issues with the game, definitely. But, I cannot act like I know what happened while I was not even a subscriber.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Nugget_

[--collstro--]

It doesn't have anything to do with amount of hours played. Nor does it have anything to do with arrogance.

 

For those who have recently joined, it's very hard to get a grasp on the issues that most of the "veterans" have experienced.

Things that happened between February (when I joined) and now are plentiful. If you joined 6+ months after that, you just don't have a firsthand experience of what the vets talk about.

 

I do not think my words carry more weight than someone who has played for 10 hours or 100 hours, but, there are some issues that some players just don't understand as well as the older ones.

 

I've seen excellent posts by PS4 players who outline some issues with the game. I've seen terrible posts by PS4 players.

I've seen amazing posts by veterans. I've seen horrible posts by veterans.

 

People who recently joined can post whatever they please, but when they try to act like they know every little detail that the vets know, that's when things get heated.

Why? Because they don't. Simple as that.

 

*Edit*

For example.

 

If I suddenly started playing World of Warcraft (never played it before), played it for about a month, then took to the forums and effectively just denied everything the veterans of the game say, and just tell them they are arrogant and just looking for attention, do I honestly know what they are talking about?

 

No, I do not. Why? Because I wasn't there.

I can outline issues with the game, definitely. But, I cannot act like I know what happened while I was not even a subscriber.

 

Thanks for saying what I meant to say better than I did.

[Zaresin]

It doesn't have anything to do with amount of hours played. Nor does it have anything to do with arrogance.

For those who have recently joined, it's very hard to get a grasp on the issues that most of the "veterans" have experienced.

Things that happened between February (when I joined) and now are plentiful. If you joined 6+ months after that, you just don't have a firsthand experience of what the vets talk about.

I do not think my words carry more weight than someone who has played for 10 hours or 100 hours, but, there are some issues that some players just don't understand as well as the older ones.

I've seen excellent posts by PS4 players who outline some issues with the game. I've seen terrible posts by PS4 players.

I've seen amazing posts by veterans. I've seen horrible posts by veterans.

People who recently joined can post whatever they please, but when they try to act like they know every little detail that the vets know, that's when things get heated.

Why? Because they don't. Simple as that.

*Edit*

For example.

If I suddenly started playing World of Warcraft (never played it before), played it for about a month, then took to the forums and effectively just denied everything the veterans of the game say, and just tell them they are arrogant and just looking for attention, do I honestly know what they are talking about?

No, I do not. Why? Because I wasn't there.

I can outline issues with the game, definitely. But, I cannot act like I know what happened while I was not even a subscriber.

I get where you are coming from nugget. I honestly do...thing is....I may have not have played as much as you guys...but when you guys post hostile responses to other players....dismissive responses to other players....any kind of post to other players ina. "Letter to the devs" type post...you destroy any kind of message you were trying to make by the completely negative attitude you just portrayed and leave a bad taste in people's mouths and they suddenly forget the message yu were trying to say and now focus on you attacking other players.

Hence why this thread got hot with people bashing the poster....and I mean this seriously....come off more humble less arrogant.

Yu will catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

One...not professional on her part as in all disciplinary actions are kept confidential for a reason....

Two...are you bragging that you contributed to getting people banned?

Three...I don't see evidence of you contributing to the ban, but how I read it is more her saying so and so is banned and will keep getting banned. Just how I read it...still not professional though.

 

That's because you aren't aware, and never will be aware of what transpired before that. The name has been redacted so as not to publicly out or shame anyone. Fact is; for the first time you're correct. I don't need to prove anything to you, or anyone else who doesn't have any idea what I or any of the other veterans are talking about.

[Zaresin]

And to be totally honest...are you guys trying to chase off new players? Honest question. These complaints come up all the time in games...and flooding the front page with them would scare off most players....I'm not saying stop complaining about them..I'm asking..must you constantly make the threads OVER...and...OVER...and...OVER again? It's getting redundant.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[Zaresin]

That's because you aren't aware, and never will be aware of what transpired before that. The name has been redacted so as not to publicly out or shame anyone. Fact is; for the first time you're correct. I don't need to prove anything to you, or anyone else who doesn't have any idea what I or any of the other veterans are talking about.

Oh vey...read my post to nugget...or better yet..let him speak for you. I may not see eye to eye with him all the time but at least he doesn't have the holier than though attitude when he posts most the time.

[--collstro--]

I get where you are coming from nugget. I honestly do...thing is....I may have not have played as much as you guys...but when you guys post hostile responses to other players....dismissive responses to other players....any kind of post to other players ina. "Letter to the devs" type post...you destroy any kind of message you were trying to make by the completely negative attitude you just portrayed and leave a bad taste in people's mouths and they suddenly forget the message yu were trying to say and now focus on you attacking other players.

Hence why this thread got hot with people bashing the poster....and I mean this seriously....come off more humble less arrogant.

Yu will catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

If you read my letter it had a much more diplomatic tone than Lynches. As I keep saying, "I don't speak on the behalf of all veterans." Like Lynches, we all have our priorities and our own style in conveying our frustrations. Maybe the style and tone of the next letter will be more to your liking. The only thing that I find bothersome is when people who have not had anywhere near the experiences with the game and DE that we have had, keep saying to stop speaking on their behalf. I speak on no one's behalf other than several veterans who do not wish to come public and have asked me to do so. I am certainly not expressing the concerns of people who rarely, or infrequently play the game, or who just recently started playing the game.

[--collstro--]

And to be totally honest...are you guys trying to chase off new players? Honest question. These complaints come up all the time in games...and flooding the front page with them would scare off most players....I'm not saying stop complaining about them..I'm asking..must you constantly make the threads OVER...and...OVER...and...OVER again? It's getting redundant.

 

The last thing we are trying to do is chase off new players. We are trying to prevent DE from doing things, (or more to the point, not  doing things,) that are chasing off veteran players and new players alike. Things like grind, communication, and lore are things that effect us all; noob, casual and veteran alike. After all, we were all noobs at some point, myself included.

[Zaresin]

If you read my letter it had a much more diplomatic tone than Lynches. As I keep saying, "I don't speak on the behalf of all veterans." Like Lynches, we all have our priorities and our own style in conveying our frustrations. Maybe the style and tone of the next letter will be more to your liking. The only thing that I find bothersome is when people who have not had anywhere near the experiences with the game and DE that we have had, keep saying to stop speaking on their behalf. I speak on no one's behalf other than several veterans who do not wish to come public and have asked me to do so. I am certainly not expressing the concerns of people who rarely, or infrequently play the game, or who just recently started playing the game.

I never once said to not speak on my behalf..only thing I think you guys need to change is the tone...don't come across as arrogant (nugget does well here as I get the impression he types as he speaks and it comes across as thoughtful and reflective)...thing is when you say you speak on someone's behalf without naming them...you become easy to write off as it becomes he said she said sort of thing. That's from an administrative point of view. Just an FYI.

[Zaresin]

The last thing we are trying to do is chase off new players. We are trying to prevent DE from doing things, (or more to the point, not doing things,) that are chasing off veteran players and new players alike. Things like grind, communication, and lore are things that effect us all; noob, casual and veteran alike. After all, we were all noobs at some point, myself included.

I agree...but the problem I see right now is...we are getting a huge update 12. We just got damage 2.0. Two large game changes pretty quickly. Who says lore isn't in the works? Who says end game type isn't in the works?

Another thing to think about....why put those things in now when in six months people will be crying for the same thing again after they get done? All im saying is patience. A lot has changed since close beta and things will continue to change. If the games starts going Ina. Direction you don't care for then honestly I have to say find another game. In the end...it is DE's decision to make. No amount of open letters will change that and once it gets past a certain point in development, changing it is not cost effective.

Just trying to be realistic

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

I never once said to not speak on my behalf..only thing I think you guys need to change is the tone...don't come across as arrogant (nugget does well here as I get the impression he types as he speaks and it comes across as thoughtful and reflective)...thing is when you say you speak on someone's behalf without naming them...you become easy to write off as it becomes he said she said sort of thing. That's from an administrative point of view. Just an FYI.

 

If you can explain how to name someone who wishes to remain anonymous until they reach a point where they wish to enter the public fray then I'm all ears. I'm sorry you didn't like the tone or approach Lynches, Swaggermeistress or I took in our letters. Maybe you'll like the tone and approach of future letters. bye

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Sorry to re-post something I said a few pages back, but it's pretty well buried in this thread and no one is expected to read every post in a thread that is now 11 pages long.

Live Stream 20 did nothing to address the issues outlined in this thread. Even the simplest and quickest issue to resolve or improve, (Harvester Spawn/Drop rates,) was mostly glossed over. Below is what I said in a previous post, which is why this thread continues and why there will be many more letters from other veterans in the future. Each with their own distinct opinions, suggestions and observations for DE to address. Hopefully the moderators will allow those letters to stand on their own, as each has their unique perspective, even though some subjects may overlap at times. If that was the threshold for merging threads, then there really should only be 1 thread on the forum since every thread here overlaps in at least 1 way. They're all about a game called WarFrame.

"After watching the stream, I have to say I'm rather disappointed with the responses. Since it seems to be an issue that has as close to a consensus that any subject can have in a group as large and diverse as our player base, I'll just focus on what was said on the live stream about that for a moment.

Harvester

As Steve said, "I gotta be honest with that. We cluster F'd the Harvester so bad on the probabilities and the, like how it all works; that I don't know, I feel that we owe them an explanation on it. The problem is; the secrecy we think is interesting, but it has that same kinda; that double edged sword that Scott was talking about. Where people want that stuff as soon as they figure out there's something interesting there, and it's keyed off of a secret, then they get irate, and then we totally sucked a$$, and the probabilities were wrong, and it was like broken, then we fixed it and it still wasn't good enough....."

Followed by Scott later saying, " So the Harvester seeks you if you're pro Grineer and continue to be pro Grineer. That's the hint we'll give today."

If they acknowledge they 'F'd up' Harvester as Steve put it, and that the secrecy makes the player base 'irate,' then why continue with the secrecy? This gave them the perfect opportunity after they admitted to failing with the Harvester and it's drop rates to show their community that they listen, and give us some real information for a change. Like exactly what needs to be done to proc it, what exactly is the spawn rate after being proc'd, what exactly are the drop rates for the components after it spawns. They acknowledge that secrecy made and makes, the player base irate, so what to do they do? Follow up with more secrecy. This was a perfect opportunity to address one of the major concerns of the player base and give us real information in the patch notes since they acknowledge they completely 'F'd it up.'

Sadly they did not do so, they followed the acknowledgment (apology?) with a slightly less cryptic 'hint,' but absolutely no real information. This does not sit well with me, or cause me to be optimistic for the ways they intend to address our other concerns, if they choose to address them at all."

Thanks again for your time,

collstro

I agree and I'm waiting to reach 100 missions to open a feedback thread, cause I'm pretty sure things are still f'd up.

Considering I'm close to rank 15 Detron is the only thing I need to get, and I'd love, I'd really love it to be hard to obtain, a sort of end game process, even a month long, but with no rng involved.

As a veteran I feel I'm not taken into consideration; and I repeat, I don't want the Detron right now, I just want a reasonable way to get it which can suit who has nothing else to do.

Edited January 12, 2014 by siralextraffo

[Zaresin]

If you can explain how to name someone who wishes to remain anonymous until they reach a point where they wish to enter the public fray then I'm all ears. I'm sorry you didn't like the tone or approach Lynches, Swaggermeistress or I took in our letters. Maybe you'll like the tone and approach of future letters. bye

Just to point out it wasn't just me that took exception to the tones portrayed in the letters as the posts reflect this. If they do not wish to be named...don't mention them. Leave them out. If I had recieved this letter, I would call the person in and speak to them and see if if an get the names of the others to find out their views. If they were not willing to step forward then I cannot question them and have to see the letter as one persons vendetta. Because that is how it would be seen by any type of administration personnel. They can only work with what they have and it would only be the person who signed his name. For all we could know you could have split personalities and you could be referring to them.

But def only mention people who are willing to have your back. Best advice I can give in this type of situation. And never tell someone they are wrong just because they disagree with a viewpoint of yours. Everyone's opinion matters the same as yours even if it isn't what you want to hear.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[--collstro--]

Just to point out it wasn't just me that took exception to the tones portrayed in the letters as the posts reflect this. If they do not wish to be named...don't mention them. Leave them out. If I had recieved this letter, I would call the person in and speak to them and see if if an get the names of the others to find out their views. If they were not willing to step forward then I cannot question them and have to see the letter as one persons vendetta. Because that is how it would be seen by any type of administration personnel. They can only work with what they have and it would only be the person who signed his name.

 

Well it's already more than 1 person. So far there have been 3 separate letters from 3 different veterans. And there will be more to follow from the veterans who are prepared to enter the public fray at this time. If you think that your experience with DE and the game in less than 1 month's time provides the same understanding of how the game has progressed or digressed from what it was a year ago, and how DE's communication, or lack thereof somehow gives you the same amount of knowledge as those of us who have been here for ~1 year or longer then I really suggest you bite your tongue when it comes to what we're try to convey until you've been here as long as we have and heard as many commitments from DE fail to materialize.

 

I and the other veterans who are writing these letters have been here long enough to see the level of grind increase to the point that it is now compared to a Korean MMO. The damage system be changed that it functions worse than the system it replaced, while adding unnecessary complexity and reducing challenge at the same. DE's failure to introduce things into the game things they started previewing, 6,8, 10+ months ago. Break the Net Code to where players who have played together for months with little to no lag, began to experience game breaking lag. Events that seem to be worse, and seem to be more poorly thought through than the earliest events were. Changes to the stamina system that made our 'Space-Ninja's' move like 80 year old asthmatics who smoke 3 packs a day. And the list goes on and on. If you were here for any of that then we'd be more interested in what you have to say in these threads. It's not your fault that you weren't. We just respectfully ask that you don't tell us that we don't know what we're talking about when you have only been here for less than 3 weeks.

[Zaresin]

Well it's already more than 1 person. So far there have been 3 separate letters from 3 different veterans. And there will be more to follow from the veterans who are prepared to enter the public fray at this time. If you think that your experience with DE and the game in less than 1 month's time provides the same understanding of how the game has progressed or digressed from what it was a year ago, and how DE's communication, or lack thereof somehow gives you the same amount of knowledge as those of us who have been here for ~1 year or longer then I really suggest you bite your tongue when it comes to what we're try to convey until you've been here as long as we have and heard as many commitments from DE fail to materialize.

I and the other veterans who are writing these letters have been here long enough to see the level of grind increase to the point that it is now compared to a Korean MMO. The damage system be changed that it functions worse than the system it replaced, while adding unnecessary complexity and reducing challenge at the same. DE's failure to introduce things into the game things they started previewing, 6,8, 10+ months ago. Break the Net Code to where players who have played together for months with little to no lag, began to experience game breaking lag. Events that seem to be worse, and seem to be more poorly thought through than the earliest events were. Changes to the stamina system that made our 'Space-Ninja's' move like 80 year old asthmatics who smoke 3 packs a day. And the list goes on and on. If you were here for any of that then we'd be more interested in what you have to say in these threads. It's not your fault that you weren't. We just respectfully ask that you don't tell us that we don't know what we're talking about when you have only been here for less than 3 weeks.

Actually I've been here since March....or April would have to ask the bf when i started dating him because I watched him play this game since then and read up on it periodically so I'm not completely in the dark. I have also played this game some on his account but not a lot prior to making my own account. Only reason I actually made my own account was because he wanted me to play with him. And I've heard those arguments from him, but like I told him...you are playing a game in development. Expect crap to break, expect things to not stay the same. And expect to hate some updates or agree with their changes. Until DE shows the players all their cards, we are not gonna know if they are playing with a full deck or a royal flush.

And I'm not saying your guys opinions don't matter. Never once said it...I'm saying I knew what I was getting into when I made my account. As should you. What you expect and what is reality doesn't always match up...sorry to say that is life. I'm not sure on your age but that is gonna be a huge life lesson for you maybe.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[Venzire]

One...not professional on her part as in all disciplinary actions are kept confidential for a reason....

Two...are you bragging that you contributed to getting people banned?

Three...I don't see evidence of you contributing to the ban, but how I read it is more her saying so and so is banned and will keep getting banned. Just how I read it...still not professional though.

Lets not spread it then, shall we?