An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Ced23Ric]

Overall, dev focus is very much on areas being discussed by our community (lore, new player experience, end-game & more)– more than it’s ever been.

- Rebecca

 

The irony is that the threshold for that statement to be true is so low, anything would qualify. There is no lore to speak off, despite this being the result of the first DC poll ever, held on the 10th of January 2013:

The three options voted for the least have been the focus of development for the entire past year: Consumables, Weapons, Warframes.

The three options most voted for, even in unision, have been the least worked on: Lore, Enemies, Mission Types.

People asking for these things to be focus of the game is nothing new. It has been here ever since Warframe had players. Yet, DE did not deliver on these points. We lost Raid, despite when asked, Rescue, Deception, Capture and Spy all scored lower than Raid. DE told us, Raid is the least played mode, despite people consistently running Raids, despite M-Prime in Mercury being constantly full of people. Raid was fast and straight, and allowed for efficient ressource farming.

 

And now we get the "We're looking into it!" response, again, in other words, and are expected to swallow it, like we did before, and like we always do, I guess. In the past, there has been no serious focus whatsoever on the elements the most lacking. The FTUE is bare and confusing. The endgame is Survival, which is trivial down to the point of almost being AFK farming again and only inhibited by performance, because the game bloats up insanely as waves/time progress. Mission types have remained stagnant, and are still either defense scenarios or Start-Do X-Extract.

The forums are coated with ideas that could be taken or morphed or at least used as inspiration. It isn't happening. After over one year, 12 months and some change, "We're looking into it!" is no longer satisfactory to take those words seriously. Unless there is something done, truly done and shipped, these words are just methods of appeasement. I guess everyone has a certain ... lenience towards patience. It would be a matter of respect to use that patience with good faith, not as a delaying technique without delivery or, at least, response.

The above is why I am so delusioned when it comes to Warframe and Digital Extremes. The game could be so much better if DE would do as they say, and not do as they wish and say another thing. Being lead on like this is disheartening.

[CheeseHasLeafs]

Don't know whether I'd be considered a vet, but I logged in just to +1 this.

EDIT: Whoa, posted just after Ced. +1 to Ced as well, totally agree.

Edited January 17, 2014 by CheeseHasLeafs

[Mir.]

Agreed and agreed.

 

What Warframe needs, in my opinion, is to make sense out of the grind.

 

You have all the weapons, you have the highest possible mastery rank as to date possible.

 

But so what?

 

 

I'm playing with ideas in my head for progression, skill trees, mechanics revamp, from chaining melee attacks into combos or an interactive weapon fusion system.

 

New enemies, new game modes, for the hell of it, large scale raids could be possible as long as it is well thought out to suit warframe's still-silly matchmaking system.

 

 

 

 

 

I believe DE may have misinterpreted when we said, "We're okay with the grind, but just not that much grind." Not soon after, harvester drop detron and more grind continues. What we implied is to make sense out of the grind. What are we exactly grinding for?

[MyHeroPatrickSwayze]

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

^ a thousand times this

 

forum shills take note.

[Guest Shibboleet]

The irony is that the threshold for that statement to be true is so low, anything would qualify. There is no lore to speak off, despite this being the result of the first DC poll ever, held on the 10th of January 2013:

The three options voted for the least have been the focus of development for the entire past year: Consumables, Weapons, Warframes.

The three options most voted for, even in unision, have been the least worked on: Lore, Enemies, Mission Types.

People asking for these things to be focus of the game is nothing new. It has been here ever since Warframe had players. Yet, DE did not deliver on these points. We lost Raid, despite when asked, Rescue, Deception, Capture and Spy all scored lower than Raid. DE told us, Raid is the least played mode, despite people consistently running Raids, despite M-Prime in Mercury being constantly full of people. Raid was fast and straight, and allowed for efficient ressource farming.

 

And now we get the "We're looking into it!" response, again, in other words, and are expected to swallow it, like we did before, and like we always do, I guess. In the past, there has been no serious focus whatsoever on the elements the most lacking. The FTUE is bare and confusing. The endgame is Survival, which is trivial down to the point of almost being AFK farming again and only inhibited by performance, because the game bloats up insanely as waves/time progress. Mission types have remained stagnant, and are still either defense scenarios or Start-Do X-Extract.

The forums are coated with ideas that could be taken or morphed or at least used as inspiration. It isn't happening. After over one year, 12 months and some change, "We're looking into it!" is no longer satisfactory to take those words seriously. Unless there is something done, truly done and shipped, these words are just methods of appeasement. I guess everyone has a certain ... lenience towards patience. It would be a matter of respect to use that patience with good faith, not as a delaying technique without delivery or, at least, response.

The above is why I am so delusioned when it comes to Warframe and Digital Extremes. The game could be so much better if DE would do as they say, and not do as they wish and say another thing. Being lead on like this is disheartening.

To be fair, those sample sizes are a bit small. Especially when 2 of the bottom 3 on that first list are around 10-15 votes off from the top. Maybe if instead of a single vote system a number rating system would have been a better option (1 = least favorite, 10 = epic)

Edited January 17, 2014 by Shibboleet

[Tulzscha]

We shouldn't stay quiet until actual change for the better is implemented. They have said that so many times before. Words are cheap.

 

Then by all means, keep this thread alive with meaningful/relevant ideas and feedback on how we can improve the game's glaring issues.

 

I'm disappointed myself in the lack of lore (e.g. there's nothing in the story explaining why I'm doing these survival runs ad nauseam) as well as the huge RNG grindwalls like the Detron and continued Void drop table dilution which I fear is only going to get worse the more Primes they add.

[General_Krull]

To be fair, those sample sizes are a bit small. Especially when 2 of the bottom 3 on that first list are around 10-15 votes off from the top. Maybe if instead of a single vote system a number rating system would have been a better option (1 = least favorite, 10 = epic)

Or you ask opinions for really important game changing things from entire community instead of just a handful?

[matto]

Then by all means, keep this thread alive with meaningful/relevant ideas and feedback on how we can improve the game's glaring issues.

 

Fact is, we've already done that, all of us, in specific threads, or in megathreads.

 

Plus, there's a lack of brainstorming on this forum. People are complaining a lot, but when you post a thread about a new idea, it gets burried in the depths of this forum.

[Guest Shibboleet]

Or you ask opinions for really important game changing things from entire community instead of just a handful?

Do you have the number of design council members from back when those polls were taken? How many voted out of that number?

 

Those members were asked in a poll form and it ended up being pretty average or most voted for one which left few votes in other areas. It didn't end like they expected it to. However, they have been working on assassinates and even added lephantis as a prime target in U10.

[Ced23Ric]

To be fair, those sample sizes are a bit small. Especially when 2 of the bottom 3 on that first list are around 10-15 votes off from the top. Maybe if instead of a single vote system a number rating system would have been a better option (1 = least favorite, 10 = epic)

 

To be fair, that was the entirety of DC of January. You may not have been around for that. You are a fairly new addition to these parts and missed many incidents, promises, statements, events and so on. That also explains why you responded to my question about how long you have been here with "I don't think it really matters." - it does, because you have barely spent a third of he time here others have.

We cannot go back to January and redo that poll. That is not the point and irrelevant. The point is, DE asked the institution that they formed themselves which way to go, and ignored the result of that next to 100%. That shows how irrelevant DC is, how hollow the option to be elevated into DC is, and it also paints the latest DE statement about "more than ever" focussing on lore in a funky light. The desire for lore, missions, enemies to be diverse and engaging is not a sudden thing. It has been a thing since day one and DE has not acted on it.

Your stance is dangerous, Shibboleet. You are quenching the notion for improvement with lulling phrases we have heard before. Lenience and forgiveness have been practiced for over a year now and led nowhere. The only incidents of actual, substantial change have been Defensegate and Voidgate - and the latter resulted in obfuscated drop tables so dataminers could no longer "hold [DE's] feet to the flame", as Scott/Grineeer put it.

But you weren't around for most of that, so I understand your confusion and narrowed perception.

 

Or you ask opinions for really important game changing things from entire community instead of just a handful?

 

That sounds like a good idea - if DE would act on it. DC has a bad track record of that.

[REDACTED]

To be fair, those sample sizes are a bit small. Especially when 2 of the bottom 3 on that first list are around 10-15 votes off from the top. Maybe if instead of a single vote system a number rating system would have been a better option (1 = least favorite, 10 = epic)

These polls are only open to people who purchased design council access, which isn't a large group to start with. DE should be asking these kind of questions of the whole playerbase, if they had any respect for our opinions.

 

But they ignored the DC, so more that likely they would ignore us too.

[Guest Shibboleet]

To be fair, that was the entirety of DC of January. You may not have been around for that. You are a fairly new addition to these parts and missed many incidents, promises, statements, events and so on. That also explains why you responded to my question about how long you have been here with "I don't think it really matters." - it does, because you have barely spent a third of he time here others have.

We cannot go back to January and redo that poll. That is not the point and irrelevant. The point is, DE asked the institution that they formed themselves which way to go, and ignored the result of that next to 100%. That shows how irrelevant DC is, how hollow the option to be elevated into DC is, and it also paints the latest DE statement about "more than ever" focussing on lore in a funky light. The desire for lore, missions, enemies to be diverse and engaging is not a sudden thing. It has been a thing since day one and DE has not acted on it.

Your stance is dangerous, Shibboleet. You are quenching the notion for improvement with lulling phrases we have heard before. Lenience and forgiveness have been practiced for over a year now and led nowhere. The only incidents of actual, substantial change have been Defensegate and Voidgate - and the latter resulted in obfuscated drop tables so dataminers could no longer "hold [DE's] feet to the flame", as Scott/Grineeer put it.

But you weren't around for most of that, so I understand your confusion and narrowed perception.

 

 

That sounds like a good idea - if DE would act on it. DC has a bad track record of that.

I'm actually pretty happy with most of what DE is doing. They could add more content, but it will slowly come and I'm ok with that.

[bejuizb]

Community polls, not just DC polls might be a nice way to go about it. Sample sizes would be substantial enough to warrant changes, and the proof will be conclusive evidence of the changes players as a majority want to see in this game.

 

And Shibboleet, wouldn't a year be considered slow enough?

Edited January 17, 2014 by bejuizb

[Guest Shibboleet]

Community polls, not just DC polls might be a nice way to go about it. Sample sizes would be substantial enough to warrant changes, and the proof will be conclusive evidence of the changes players as a majority want to see in this game.

 

And Shibboleet, wouldn't a year be considered slow enough?

A year has been a lot of coding thus far.

[bejuizb]

A year has been a lot of coding thus far.

Fair enough, but the year was spent mostly coding items that shouldn't have been on the priority list to begin with.

[Guest Shibboleet]

Fair enough, but the year was spent mostly coding items that shouldn't have been on the priority list to begin with.

Like...? Easy stuff that probably takes 1/20 of the time to code than the bigger stuff?

[bejuizb]

Like...? Easy stuff that probably takes 1/20 of the time to code than the bigger stuff?

Pretty much. Upgrading the foundation of the game will provide a better platform to release newer content on. And imo, it is better to improve the foundation before you get overwhelmed with duties as the game expands. DE is currently in that situation: far too much to work on, and not much time to do so. 

[Ced23Ric]

I'm actually pretty happy with most of what DE is doing. They could add more content, but it will slowly come and I'm ok with that.

 

Then you are easily entertained, easily deluded and easily appeased. Which is okay, as long as you are happy, really. Pursuit of happiness has many forms. Yet, that disqualifies you on multiple levels in this discussion. For once, you lack the overarching experience, moving on from there, you also cannot see or don't want to see the glaring gaps in the game, and you are missing the connection coming from both of these predispositions.

Missions have not changed much in a year. The models for Capture are different, the tilesets are different, but the mission is still the same. Raid, a well played game mode, was removed. Rescue, Spy, Deception, which are despised by most, are left in. Survival is Reverse-Raid. Instead of you doing the Raid, some Alpha Team Tenno does, you are only the distraction.

 

Lore has not expanded or even begin to make sense. DE teases, but never delivers. The narrative of the Gravidus event was highly illogical. The narrative of the Cicero crisis was, too. The connections are mere conjecture, everything is speculative, there is nothing tying the teeny-tiny fragments together. Tenno are murder hobos sent to mess up other people on the whims of a sadistic woman. That's just as feasible as having a higher calling, because nothing is in the game about it.

 

Enemy types have been expanded with sand skates, which are inconsequential. The Void is a rehash of existing enemies. The MOAs are, the Grineer have added padding on some tilesets, and a different tintmap. The Ancients have new models. Still no ceiling crawlers, still no AI that interacts with each other, still no bosses that have, say, an interesting chase, or stages that require a change of tactics. Still no "Hardcore" mode where you can play all levels at level 30.

 

History has shown that DE has capable mappers, and willing people in sound and animation, but when it comes putting these people to good use by combining these efforts ... it just doesn't happen. The content you are betting on seeing eventually has not reared it's head yet. What is slowly? Two years? Four? Please be a little less delusional here or vacate yourself from a discussion you are uncapable of holding due to a lack of knowledge/understanding.

[MyHeroPatrickSwayze]

I'm actually pretty happy with most of what DE is doing. They could add more content, but it will slowly come and I'm ok with that.

 

So you're okay with:

more of the same shallow gameplay

lack of meaningful lore

railroaded event outcomes

lack of strategic vision due to lack of design documents

power creeping meaning grinding for content that might be nerfed by the time you get there

 

Why do you hate warframe?

[matto]

Don't go on this path guys, we need to admit that some people are satisfied with the actual state of the game. Most of them are casual players playing Warframe for some simple reasons : getting the distraction of a simple dungeon crawl shooter.

 

I always remember this guy on the forum saying : "I don't care for the lore as long as I kill things, so please more frames and more weapons".

 

We need to consider that, even being a majority I guess, our opinion won't be shared by everyone and accept those players' opinion. A good argument being that those changes we ask for won't affect their experience of a slash and slice/shoot at everything.

Edited January 17, 2014 by matto

[bejuizb]

^ Yes, I agree. But at the same time, we need to explain our point as well. If someone disagree, they should try and provide valuable points to prove their point, to prevent arguments from happening. Simply stating that they're happy will not cut it.

[Deicul]

Don't go on this path guys, we need to admit that some people are satisfied with the actual state of the game. Most of them are casual players playing Warframe for some simple reasons : getting the distraction of a simple dungeon crawl shooter.

 

I always remember this guy on the forum saying : "I don't care for the lore as long as I kill things, so please more frames and more weapons".

 

We need to consider that, even being a majority I guess, our opinion won't be shared by everyone and accept those players' opinion. A good argument being that those changes we ask for won't affect their experience of a slash and slice/shoot at everything.

I'm fine with them being fine with the current or promised to come "soon" state of the game. Relly, I am. I'm not fine with them shooting down other people that are not fine with current state of the game. I'm also not fine with them participating in discussions and trying to defend DE's course from 'good enough' position.

[General_Krull]

Do you have the number of design council members from back when those polls were taken? How many voted out of that number?

 

Those members were asked in a poll form and it ended up being pretty average or most voted for one which left few votes in other areas. It didn't end like they expected it to. However, they have been working on assassinates and even added lephantis as a prime target in U10.

Funny you should mention Lephantis, at first he was called J2000-Golem. Want to know why? They promised us he would replace J3-golem on jupiter. Instead they locked him behind 2 or 3 different grind walls and before there was a huge backlash they required like hour or more to build and ludicrous amounts of resources. When asked about it they implied it would be a temporary solution until they found a new place to get Volt. Instead they made jupiter corpus planet, wiped J3-Golem from existence and kept derelicts as key only places. They also removed mutagen samples from star map missions at this point, to "force" people to play derelicts if they wanted infested clantech.

 

BUT IT GETS BETTER! When they realized people weren't doing orokin derelicts after getting Nekros they decided to make them look more appealing, enter the corrupted mods. Which requires you to sacrifice a more useful void key for a chance of getting a mod you have to spend hours, thousands of fusion cores and millions of credits leveling. And it was still behind a grind wall.

 

OH MY BUT IT GETS EVEN MORE BETTER! Then when people either got bored or got all of the mods from vaults they stopped doing orokin derelicts, so instead of making derelicts interesting, worth it otherwise or simply optimized so people could play them without crashing. they removed all infested missions from star map. No prior commentary on it, no warning. Just an update and boom! infested gone! Everyone was rightly upset and DE's response was "whoops sorry, we should have told you before. Sorry your easy farming is gone!" And that's it.

 

What this whole thing tells us? DE doesn't want to back down from their decisions, instead they force more changes to justify their prior poor decisions no matter what the community says.

[Eremes]

while it might be impossible to please everyone it should be rather possible to not displease everyone.

 

i am certain there is lore behind the game. it would not ruin anything for anyone to have a slight clue of what our enemies are, and why.

 

We shouldn't stay quiet until actual change for the better is implemented. They have said that so many times before. Words are cheap.

they would be gold plated if we knew what was planned in the short run.

 

may we know what is being made for new player experience? i know steam friends who would not reccomend warframe due to its innate difficulty to get into.

 

if i had the time i would revisit the stealth megathread. i had made 2 videos recently thanks to the vectis SS challenge and i was rather surprised with the little that was missing for stealth to be "viable". scanners werent quite it, but was close.

[matto]

Indeed, in a perfect world, they would just let us discuss, and understand that none of those things we are asking for are going to change the game they like, and just improve it instead. That's also our role to explain this to this part of the community I guess, instead of bashing them for not sharing the same interests in Warframe.

 

Saying "the game is fine, it doesn't need any change" isn't a valid point. As long as "if you're okay with all the flaws we find, then you're wrong" ain't one neither.