Is Max Power Efficiency Too Good?

[Shanicus]

Ok, now that I'm no longer out-running an Australian heat-wave and trying to stop my computer from melting, I can respond to this properly:

 

No, I don't believe Power Efficiency is 'too good', mainly because to max it out you need a) a Rare mod, b) an end-game Corrupted mod and c) it functions differently to things like Power Strength, Power Range and Power Duration. Maxing out power duration is very much an end-game thing, and at end game you need a lot more casts than you do in the early stages.

I'm gonna be using Rhino as an example here -

Now, Rhino has 150 max energy at level 30. With that he can cast 3 Iron Skins (400-1200 damage absorbed per level) or 1 Rhino Stomp without any form of power efficiency attached. With a maximized Flow he gets to 300 energy, allowing 6 Iron Skins and 3 Rhino Stomps from maximum energy. Even without the flow the Rhino will have plenty of energy to cast his abilities against low-mid tier enemies, with a single Rhino Stomp allowing him to wipe out, say, a large group of Infested that swarmed a pod or a big cluster of Grineer that spawned near a generator.

 

Ergo, Flow allows for a greater number of casts on his abilities and allows the Rhino to use them more often in situations where he'd need them.

Now, say our Rhino here is lucky enough to get a Streamline mod - at 30% power efficiency from it, he can now cast 35 energy Iron Skins (8 with a maxed flow, 4 without) and 70 Energy Rhino Stomps (4 with maxed Flow, 2 without); however, the strength of his abilities hasn't changed, he can just cast them more frequently, thus allowing him to function in higher levels of combat where Iron Skin is removed more frequently, Rhino Stomp is used more often due to larger, more powerful packs and his other abilities (Roar and Charge) become more useful due to the mobility and strength they offer.

With 30% efficiency the Rhino can now cast his abilities more often, letting him use them even more often when the situation demands it; with a flow attached he can do it even greater, letting him soak more damage over time, buff his team mates more often or AoE/CC a strong group of enemies to give his allies time to kill them up to 4 times as much.

Now, onto Fleeting Expertise - this mod offers 60% efficiency at the cost of 60% duration at max level. Tweaking around you can score 75% with a level 4 Fleeting and a level 4 Streamline; however, as the above may have subtlety alluded to, maximizing his efficiency just allows him to cast more often. The Rhino can cast more Iron Skins to soak damage, more Rhino Stomps to crowd control, but can't cast Roar and Charge to be useful due to that -50% duration. Now, with a maxed flow and 75% reduction he can cast 12 Rhino Stomps in a row - however, in practice, this just allows him to function at even higher levels where Stomps are needed to CC the powerful enemies, though Roar is more welcome thanks to it's 50% damage buff to the rest of the team.

Granted this has probably got a bit long-winded by now, but with all this taken into account I believe that Power Efficiency is 'just right' - yes, it scales very high (multiplying the amount of casts you can make by 4 when maxed), but given that it doesn't increase the power of these casts, just allows you to use them more often, something that is very useful at high-level gameplay as you can keep your abilities going against strong enemies. The -40-60% duration loss helps balance out the 75% efficiency builds as well, as it forces players to determine whether they want MORE casts or if they want BETTER casts - maximizing Power Strength, Range and Duration all make each individual cast stronger, while maxing out Efficiency just means you can cast it more often, which comes down to personal preference more than anything.

TL;DR - Fleeting Expertise works just fine because you sacrifice the power of each cast for more casts. Power Efficiency isn't over-powered because it allows you the ability to make more casts in situations that require it, often found at higher levels of gameplay.

As for the 'Rare mod, Corrupted mod' note I made at the beginning - it's easy to forget when you've put 400+ hours into Warframe and are just sitting around waiting for the next content update, but I think it's important to note that a) Streamline is a RARE mod, only appearing... well, rarely from Lancers and higher leveled defense missions. Fleeting Expertise is a CORRUPTED mod, only found by doing a Dragon Key run in a high-leveled mission where you have to actively cripple your frame/frames to have a chance of getting and even then you have a low chance of getting Fleeting Expertise itself. Maxing out Power Efficiency is very much an end-game build, which is where it's most viable.

[DannieRay23]

Too bad nobody has any kind of mathematical proof to make the argument that max efficiency isn't actually OP.

 

 

Everyone that says it's fine has done so with a simple opinion judgment based on basically nothing.

 

Look at the hard facts

 

 

 

Maxing your power only lets you hit 2.3 times as hard, this uses 2 mods slots and 27 points.

 

Maxing Duration allows your abilities to last 2.57 times as long, this uses 3 mods slots and 38 points.

 

You can also use 2 mod slots and 25 points to make your abilities 2.3 times as long.

 

Maxing Range allows your abilities area to be 2.35 times as big, this uses 2 mod slots and 20 points.

 

Meanwhile, maxing out Efficiency allows you to cast a whooping 4 times as much, this uses 2 mod slots and a mere 18 points.

 

 

So Efficiency not only nets the higher ratio, but its also the cheapest investment.

 

Also consider the fact that while Power, Duration and Range only affect some skills, Efficiency affects ALL SKILLS.

 

Yes, its true.

 

Maxing efficency reduces duration by half, but maxing anything via corrupted mods will have a drawback.

 

And while Maxing Efficiency is not an end all solution for every frame. My numbers above prove that since maxing Efficiency is both cheaper AND more rewarding. Frames/Skills that are good with Efficiency get way more benefit than those that would rather have max power or duration instead.

 

Compare it to maxing Power, which comes at cost of -55% Efficiency which affects all skills. While there's a lot of skills that aren't effected by the reduced Duration.

 

 

All Corrupted combos have strengths and drawbacks, I'm merely arguing that Efficiency has the biggest advantanges, causing Efficiency Friendly Builds to have an advantage.

[Lunaroh]

power efficiency is OP and is a MUST for every warframe since ALL OF THEM benefit from it or in the worst case are just even.

 

It's easy. With Fleeting Expertise, half the cost at half the duration means that your power lasts half the time but you can cast it twice with the same energy so it's even.

 

the problem is that if you get 75% reduction and boost the power duration with all the relevant mods you get a loki that can go invisible with only 12 energy for at least 24 seconds (depending if you used the helmet or not).

 

add an energy siphon mod that gives you 1.2 energy point every 2 seconds

 

24 seconds would give you 14+ energy.

 

congratulatons, you have a loki that can stay perma-invisible even by just standing still.

 

if you pick up energy orbs or have another team member with energy focus you even get energy profit! =D

 

same thing goes for Valkyr's Hysteria.

 

 

 

......it's OP, nerf the mechanic or at least this particular mod.

 

 

PD: I like the idea of removing energy altogether and implementing a cooldown system.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Lunaroh

[AuroraSonicBoom]

It still offers players a valid choice in certain areas, as some builds have to use up more mod points in order to counteract the negative effect while others don't suffer from any drawbacks. I've always regarded fleeting as a blanket buff for non-DoT abilities, but I can see where it, combined with other efficiency mods will make the game unbalanced on certain frames. A lower power efficiency cap would be very much appreciated. In other terms, there also should be a cap on power/damage and player speed(there is one, but it's ridiculously high).

[Kickboxing_Banana]

euhm as far as I know fleeting expertise reduces the duration by 60%

so much to your x4 duration, and personally I don't think it's op, many skills need that (for example volts shock etc)

 

there's too much gunplay, the game should be balanced between skills, guns and melee, not 80% guns 19.992% skills and 0.008% melee

 

so therefore I think -75% energy efficiency is totally fine.

 

what might work is give fleeting expertise a flat energy decrease, making skill no 1 or maybe 2 spamable 

 

All I see is Oberons spamming Reckoning. Where's the gunplay you're talking about?

Edited January 16, 2014 by GalliumGD

[tehous]

Reasonably, +X% power efficiency should result in +X% casts, that's what you're mainly interested in anyway and it would be a very easy fix.

 

When we talk about the speed of a car we use mph/kmph in order to make calculating the time it takes to travel a certain distance easier. When we talk about something being 50% faster we would generally mean e.g. 150mph compared to 100mph. In the same manner I would intuitively assume 50% power efficiency as giving 50% more casts. In this case 50% power efficiency is a 50% decrease of the denominator rather than a 50% increase of the numerator and you need to do the math yourself to evaluate the real worth of X% power efficiency. It's kinda like saying that car A is 50% faster than car B due to taking half as much time to go a certain distance, A travels at twice the mph/kmph though.

 

The opportunity cost of multiple casts is generally negligible and in some cases the reduced duration is quite advantageous. e.g. energy vamp where a reduced duration gives a higher energy/second yield or chaos where you might want to cast it again but won't be able to until the last cast runs out.

 

 

I read people saying that Loki is a bad example, could the "fleeting aint OP" crowd give one example of a frame+mod layout without fleeting where you couldn't swap for something including fleeting and get a more efficient build? 

Fluff builds where you don't use powers?

Fluff builds focused on slash dash or rhino charge?

[DannieRay23]

Reasonably, +X% power efficiency should result in +X% casts, that's what you're mainly interested in anyway and it would be a very easy fix.

 

That's right.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/163503-why-power-efficiency-is-broken-and-fleeting-expertise-is-op/

 

 

Pretty easy fix, and you can do it even without affecting the relative power of "efficency" at all.

 

All you have to do is make streamline comparatively stronger, making the wording on the mods actually reflect what they do and adjusting the numbers would easily fix this.

[Liminal]

I'm not gonna argue for either side, but you should remember casting a skill more than once is a significant drawback.
The extra casting time for some skills can get you killed quite often.

 

Just trying to make a note of the bad stuff as well.

Edited January 17, 2014 by The_Doc

[Davoodoo]

That's right.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/163503-why-power-efficiency-is-broken-and-fleeting-expertise-is-op/

 

 

Pretty easy fix, and you can do it even without affecting the relative power of "efficency" at all.

 

All you have to do is make streamline comparatively stronger, making the wording on the mods actually reflect what they do and adjusting the numbers would easily fix this.

You do understand that in long run you havent changed anything. Its again infinite energy cause 33 energy ults are still cheap enough to never make you run out of energy. Maxed fleeting expertise would alone lower cost to 41 energy which is close enough to what we have now, streamline on the other hand would reduce cost by 17 which is a decent nerf and again is making fleeting expertise mandatory. So why even bother changing. Such change only screws ppl who cap efficiency and those who havent yet done their vault runs, so mostly new players.

 

If you meant that system to work as 100%+ efficiency then yet again you havent solved anything, streamline alone reduces energy costs to 45 while fleeting expertise to 29 increasing problem with endless ult spam instead of fixing it, not to mention that fleeting expertise is completely useless unless you have 0 abilities based on duration(only mag comes in mind) or you want to lower duration(nyx might want it).

Edited January 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[LtZefar]

Oh this type of topic again. 

 

I just use maxed Flow on my Rhino and never run out of energy as I don't need to spam them. So what's so OP about that mod when Flow does pretty much the same thing? :/ Except it has no drawbacks.

[AttackNitro]

Too bad nobody has any kind of mathematical proof to make the argument that max efficiency isn't actually OP.

 

 

Everyone that says it's fine has done so with a simple opinion judgment based on basically nothing.

 

Look at the hard facts

 

 

 

Maxing your power only lets you hit 2.3 times as hard, this uses 2 mods slots and 27 points.

 

Maxing Duration allows your abilities to last 2.57 times as long, this uses 3 mods slots and 38 points.

 

You can also use 2 mod slots and 25 points to make your abilities 2.3 times as long.

 

Maxing Range allows your abilities area to be 2.35 times as big, this uses 2 mod slots and 20 points.

 

Meanwhile, maxing out Efficiency allows you to cast a whooping 4 times as much, this uses 2 mod slots and a mere 18 points.

 

 

So Efficiency not only nets the higher ratio, but its also the cheapest investment.

 

Also consider the fact that while Power, Duration and Range only affect some skills, Efficiency affects ALL SKILLS.

 

Yes, its true.

 

Maxing efficency reduces duration by half, but maxing anything via corrupted mods will have a drawback.

 

And while Maxing Efficiency is not an end all solution for every frame. My numbers above prove that since maxing Efficiency is both cheaper AND more rewarding. Frames/Skills that are good with Efficiency get way more benefit than those that would rather have max power or duration instead.

 

Compare it to maxing Power, which comes at cost of -55% Efficiency which affects all skills. While there's a lot of skills that aren't effected by the reduced Duration.

 

 

All Corrupted combos have strengths and drawbacks, I'm merely arguing that Efficiency has the biggest advantanges, causing Efficiency Friendly Builds to have an advantage.

Going purely on numbers is idiotic.

 

You have to take into consideration what type of scenarios theses skills are being used in.

 

The first example that springs to mind is Blessing.

 

I have fleeting expertise but I dont use it on trinity, even though i could. Why? Because having maxed efficiency means less duration.

 

"hurr durr but with more efficiency you can just cast it again for little energy"

 

>That isn't the point, the whole point is that the invincibility of blessing is needed to be as long as possible so that it doesn't wear out mid combat. Blessing also has a very long cast time (In which you can be killed) making casting it more often less desirable even more so.

Edited January 18, 2014 by AttackNitro

[DecoyCode]

Reposting from the other thread.

 

 

Going to point out that -Duration actually has some serious benefit with +Efficiency. The ability to recast abilities depends on whether or not its still active on enemies.

 

Say there are 10 enemies in a room and you use Radial Blind. You kill 9 enemies in 10 seconds, and 9 more enter the room. Until you kill the 10th enemy, or the duration runs out, you cannot cast blind again. With the amount of energy you saved you can cast it again if you killed the enemies before the timer dropped, and if you didn't you recast for the same amount of stun.

 

Rhino Stomp does 800 damage baseline at 100 energy. Rhino has 150 energy.

Rhino Stomp with Maxed Focus does 1040 damage at 100 energy. Rhino casts it once and does 1040 damage. Rhino is left with 50 Energy.

Rhino Stomp with Maxed Streamline does 800 damage at 70 energy. Rhino casts it twice for 1600 damage. Rhino is left with 10 energy.

 

Then you add flow, where the amounts of remaining energy are a bit closer.

 

3120 From Maxed Focus with Maxed Flow, you can cast 3 times, 0 energy remains.

3200 From Maxed Streamline with Maxed Flow, you can cast 4 times, 20 energy remains.

 

Duration works the same.

 

8 seconds base line, 1 cast 100 cost, 50 energy left over.

10.4 seconds with Continuity, 1 cast 100 cost, 50 energy left over.

8 seconds, 70 energy cost with Streamline, 2 casts at 70 energy, 10 energy left over.

 

With Flow

 

10.4 seconds with Continuity, 3 casts at 100 energy cost each, 0 energy left over. 31.2 seconds of stun

8 seconds, 70 energy cost with Streamline, 4 casts at 70 energy each, 20 energy left over. 32 seconds of stun.

 

The best part is that with just Streamline you beat Continuity and Focus at the same time, only using 1 mod slot and 11 less mod points.

[Shanicus]

 

Reposting from the other thread.

 

 

Going to point out that -Duration actually has some serious benefit with +Efficiency. The ability to recast abilities depends on whether or not its still active on enemies.

 

Say there are 10 enemies in a room and you use Radial Blind. You kill 9 enemies in 10 seconds, and 9 more enter the room. Until you kill the 10th enemy, or the duration runs out, you cannot cast blind again. With the amount of energy you saved you can cast it again if you killed the enemies before the timer dropped, and if you didn't you recast for the same amount of stun.

 

Rhino Stomp does 800 damage baseline at 100 energy. Rhino has 150 energy.

Rhino Stomp with Maxed Focus does 1040 damage at 100 energy. Rhino casts it once and does 1040 damage. Rhino is left with 50 Energy.

Rhino Stomp with Maxed Streamline does 800 damage at 70 energy. Rhino casts it twice for 1600 damage. Rhino is left with 10 energy.

 

Then you add flow, where the amounts of remaining energy are a bit closer.

 

3120 From Maxed Focus with Maxed Flow, you can cast 3 times, 0 energy remains.

3200 From Maxed Streamline with Maxed Flow, you can cast 4 times, 20 energy remains.

 

Duration works the same.

 

8 seconds base line, 1 cast 100 cost, 50 energy left over.

10.4 seconds with Continuity, 1 cast 100 cost, 50 energy left over.

8 seconds, 70 energy cost with Streamline, 2 casts at 70 energy, 10 energy left over.

 

With Flow

 

10.4 seconds with Continuity, 3 casts at 100 energy cost each, 0 energy left over. 31.2 seconds of stun

8 seconds, 70 energy cost with Streamline, 4 casts at 70 energy each, 20 energy left over. 32 seconds of stun.

 

The best part is that with just Streamline you beat Continuity and Focus at the same time, only using 1 mod slot and 11 less mod points.

 

But that's the thing - Power Efficiency just allows you to cast MORE, rather than cast BETTER. Duration, Range and Power are all to make each individual cast stronger - like sticking a Serration or Speed Trigger in your gun, they improve the damage and utility of the ability. Power Efficiency and Flow are the warframe equivalent of Magazine increases and Max Ammo. Hell, that's probably why Power Efficiency is cheaper than everything else to mod.

Besides, saying 'Oh hey, you can do the same damage as someone else in more casts' isn't exactly a positive given the situation - if they do more damage in less casts, there's a good chance they've killed everything before you have. The fact that most frames aren't invulnerable during cast animations, it also puts you at greater risk because to get that 4th cast out you have to be exposed for longer than that guy who can do what you're trying in 3 casts.

 

[Davoodoo]

 

* Many abilities also have no negative effects from reducing their Strength.  Does that mean the mod Overextended is overpowered since it greatly improves Range at the cost of Strength?

 

* Many frames are 1 trick ponies, even before you start min-maxing. That's simply a fact. Go look in the Warframes and Abilities section of feedback and you will find every single frame mentioned by its fans as needing improvements to make them more versatile or more enjoyable.

 

* I literally do not even know why you brought up Saryn. People I have talked to that play her do not advocate using Fleeting Expertise because so many of her abilities are reliant on Duration to function properly.

1) overextended have no effect on many enemies due to targeting range cap of 50m, if thats not the case then its decent mod, yet again doesnt really affect even 3/4 of all powers and over half of powers feels disadvantage of lowered strength. Efficiency affects all powers, while duration only some and even then many doesnt need such long durations to be effective

 

2) many warframes are like this cause ppl using them are allowed to spam ultimate without nearly any energy costs and thus doesnt even experiment with 3 other powers, i dont blame them cause its neither their fault or too powerful ultimates but energy system which allows such sitaution.

 

3) my personal build on her: fleeting expertise, narrow minded, stretch, focus, redirection, quick rest. +39% duration + 30% strength -21% range 60% efficiency, works pretty well, range loss is barely noticable while 60% efficiency works if you dont like quick rest just put continuity or streamline there. I run same build on ember and oberon. Even on duration heavy frames theres really no reason not to use fleeting expertise, with narrow minded and continuity you will still get +69% duration which is overkill.

 

 

Its not argument about efficiency being better than strength duration and range cause no one in their right mind would put efficiency and forget about everything else. Problem is that efficiency changes you from energy starving to infinite energy once you cross certain treshhold giving you flexibility to cast whatever you want most of the time, why would i bother with 4 rhino stomp casts just ot make as much dmg as with 1?? I will put all other mods i would normally put then go cast it once, pick 1 energy orb and refund myself costs. Having ability to cast it when needed is great help, but abusing this by endless spam is not. Problem with this system is that efficiency mods are mandatory and allow mentioned abuse, both problems should be solved.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Davoodoo

[BadAimbot]

Reasonably, +X% power efficiency should result in +X% casts, that's what you're mainly interested in anyway and it would be a very easy fix.

 

This is exactly what needs to happen. With increases you need +100% to double, then another 100% to triple, then another 100% you get the idea. Reductions however aren't like that. Reductions work by -50% to half, then an extra -25% to 1/3, then a -12.5% to 1/4 and so on. In fact, all mods that work on reductions need this problem solved, or else we're going to have some serious scaling issues with new mods in the future.

[Davoodoo]

This is exactly what needs to happen. With increases you need +100% to double, then another 100% to triple, then another 100% you get the idea. Reductions however aren't like that. Reductions work by -50% to half, then an extra -25% to 1/3, then a -12.5% to 1/4 and so on. In fact, all mods that work on reductions need this problem solved, or else we're going to have some serious scaling issues with new mods in the future.

if 200 is 2 times bigger than 100 then 100 is half of 200. This wont change anything. 3/4 cost reduction will be changed into 4 times amount of casts for same energy, cause in math both are equal. What does it solve??

[BadAimbot]

if 200 is 2 times bigger than 100 then 100 is half of 200. This wont change anything. 3/4 cost reduction will be changed into 4 times amount of casts for same energy, cause in math both are equal. What does it solve??

 

If you increase a number by 100%, then take that number and decrease it by 100%, it becomes 0. Increases and decreases by percentages are completely different.

 

The difference is that if Efficiency is changed to mean x less casts, then 100% efficiency will lower the cost of an ultimate to 50, then 200% efficiency will lower it to 25, and so on. It means that DE doesn't have to put a hard cap on, and you can release more Efficiency mods without breaking the system.

Edited January 18, 2014 by BadAimbot

[Davoodoo]

If you increase a number by 100%, then take that number and decrease it by 100%, it becomes 0. Increases and decreases by percentages are completely different.

 

The difference is that if Efficiency is changed to mean x less casts, then 100% efficiency will lower the cost of an ultimate to 50, then 200% efficiency will lower it to 25, and so on. It means that DE doesn't have to put a hard cap on, and you can release more Efficiency mods without breaking the system

But that will mean that 1-2 mods are all a person needs to reach desired cost decrease and that is no different than now. 200% more casts?? sure 33 energy ults for 2 mods. atm we have 25 energy ult for 2 mods. More than 2 efficiency mods will have diminishing returns at such lvl that its a waste of mods slots, 300% more cast will reduce cost to 25, 400% to 20 and so on, 1st 100% reduces cost by 50, 2nd by further 17, 3rd by 8, 4th by 5, while 150% extra casts is more than enough to keep you from running out of energy. So again we will be left with 1-2 efficiency mods giving us with infinite energy and endless skill spam. What does it solve??

Edited January 18, 2014 by Davoodoo

[DannieRay23]

Going purely on numbers is idiotic.

 

You have to take into consideration what type of scenarios theses skills are being used in.

 

The first example that springs to mind is Blessing.

 

I have fleeting expertise but I dont use it on trinity, even though i could. Why? Because having maxed efficiency means less duration.

 

"hurr durr but with more efficiency you can just cast it again for little energy"

 

>That isn't the point, the whole point is that the invincibility of blessing is needed to be as long as possible so that it doesn't wear out mid combat. Blessing also has a very long cast time (In which you can be killed) making casting it more often less desirable even more so.

 

 

Nope, this is flawed analysis at best and idiotic at worst.

 

It doesn't matter that it doesn't work for perfectly every skill.

 

The numbers prove that for the skills that it does work for perfectly you are getting way bigger benefits than if you were maxing either Strength, Range or Duration for skills that benefit from that instead.

 

It doesn't work for Trinity's Sanctuary? Big deal, doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.

 

 

 

You do understand that in long run you havent changed anything. Its again infinite energy cause 33 energy ults are still cheap enough to never make you run out of energy. Maxed fleeting expertise would alone lower cost to 41 energy which is close enough to what we have now, streamline on the other hand would reduce cost by 17 which is a decent nerf and again is making fleeting expertise mandatory. So why even bother changing. Such change only screws ppl who cap efficiency and those who havent yet done their vault runs, so mostly new players.

 

If you meant that system to work as 100%+ efficiency then yet again you havent solved anything, streamline alone reduces energy costs to 45 while fleeting expertise to 29 increasing problem with endless ult spam instead of fixing it, not to mention that fleeting expertise is completely useless unless you have 0 abilities based on duration(only mag comes in mind) or you want to lower duration(nyx might want it).

 

yes, I know. The thread I linked was to highlight the mechanical problem of Efficency, to which the answer is working as +100% efficency.

 

This thread right here is to discuss the balance problem of efficency, personally I think around +150-175% efficiency would make it balanced to the other mods.

 

The options seem to be.

 

Streamline at +7.5% per level for 45% and fleeting at 15% per level for a max of 90% and a combined 135%.

 

or

 

Streamline at +10% per level for a max of 60% and fleeting 20% per level, to a max of 120% and a combined 180%

 

Do yo think the latter would be broken? It might just be alright.

Edited January 18, 2014 by DannieRay23

[HappyFrisbees]

...

Maxing your power only lets you hit 2.3 times as hard, this uses 2 mods slots and 27 points.

 

Maxing Duration allows your abilities to last 2.57 times as long, this uses 3 mods slots and 38 points.

 

You can also use 2 mod slots and 25 points to make your abilities 2.3 times as long.

 

Maxing Range allows your abilities area to be 2.35 times as big, this uses 2 mod slots and 20 points.

 

Meanwhile, maxing out Efficiency allows you to cast a whooping 4 times as much, this uses 2 mod slots and a mere 18 points.

 

 

...

 

 

Maxing Efficiency means you're getting only 50% duration, so it still follows your 2 mod slots and 2 times the outcome as far as duration is concerned.

 

Just going for a doubling idea, power duration can also be doubled using 2 mod slots and 16 points.

 

Basically max efficiency isn't better in regards of other things. As a Trinity, sacrificing duration when I could cast Blessing multiple times will get myself or my teammates killed between casts. 

 

As has been said, not all frames benefit the same out of Fleeting Expertise. I prefer a balance of mods, and those that make sacrifices and use up most of their points are the frames with 300 total shields and health that die constantly since they are heavily stacked in a certain set of mods.

 

I'd also like to ask where you are drawing the power line. You're saying the combination is "overpowered", but I don't see where you draw the line for "empowered" abilities. Also, based on your category of power placement there may be some "underpowered" mods as well. If that is the case, rather than bringing the "overpowered" mods down to your "empowered" line, would it not be better to raise the "underpowered" and "empowered" skills to that of the level of the "overpowered" skills?

 

Casting Reckoning 4 times doesn't mean 4 times the damage against a level 70 Ancient. What it means is that it gives me 4 seperate times where I'm frozen in place and begging to be knocked down and killed. In cases similar to this skills aren't used for damage, but their utility. Utility meaning that I've created the situation that I need to succeed. If I've cast the skill once, the situation has been created. The next 3 times is not needed at all.

 

TL:DR

 

Make other things more powerful, and multiple casts means multiple times I'm frozen and more chances to get killed. 1 long/strong cast is superior.

[DannieRay23]

1 long/strong cast is superior.

 

 

 

But how superior?  Is casting stronger/longer superior enough to warrant that efficency brings over twice the benefit?

 

Everyone is missing the point of the conversation and making horrible arguments about the drawbacks of maxing Efficency.

 

Yes, it cuts your duration big deal, all corrupted mods cut something in return.

 

Not good on a certain frame/ability? No big deal, all corrupted mods are good on some skills and bad on others.

 

The point here is that while the drawbacks on corrupted mods seem relatively balanced, the benefits of maxing Efficiency seem to severly outweight the rest. The cases were you want to max efficiency become absurdely overpowered while the cases where you'd want to max strength or duration are just merely adequate.

 

It is not the same problem than Serration/Hornet Strike where we have a mod that is so good that you always want to have it in.

 

This is a case of a mod that is Situationally overpowered, when its meant to be situationally strong, just like Blind Rage and Overextended are.

[LtZefar]

So what if a rare corrupted mod makes a player quite powerful in low level stages? When you get further and further in on Survival skills that are useful are often the ones that does support actions rather than damage. Anti matter drop might be different though.

 

What difference is there if a player just use a godlike weapon instead and kills every enemy in one shot? Do you want to nerf that as well because he'll be so powerful with the gun?

 

What about Flow that increase your Energy? It acts like the corrupted mod except with no drawback. Duration is still the same. I can cast my ulti 3 times and the enemies will die from one of them and drop enough orbs for me to fill up my Energy.

 

So I really don't see the point in trying to nerf this mod when all people are going to do is move to Flow instead which does the very same thing. I rarely run out of energy when I'm fighting enemies. Most of the time I got plenty of Energy orbs lying around and doing nothing.

 

That mod isn't a problem.

[HappyFrisbees]

But how superior?  Is casting stronger/longer superior enough to warrant that efficency brings over twice the benefit?

 

Everyone is missing the point of the conversation and making horrible arguments about the drawbacks of maxing Efficency.

 

Yes, it cuts your duration big deal, all corrupted mods cut something in return.

 

Not good on a certain frame/ability? No big deal, all corrupted mods are good on some skills and bad on others.

 

The point here is that while the drawbacks on corrupted mods seem relatively balanced, the benefits of maxing Efficiency seem to severly outweight the rest. The cases were you want to max efficiency become absurdely overpowered while the cases where you'd want to max strength or duration are just merely adequate.

 

It is not the same problem than Serration/Hornet Strike where we have a mod that is so good that you always want to have it in.

 

This is a case of a mod that is Situationally overpowered, when its meant to be situationally strong, just like Blind Rage and Overextended are.

 

Nekros: Casting Terrify once will cause things to run away and have a reduced armor count. It will clear a crowd and make things easier to kill. The longer the duration the better. Shorten that, and after the first cast things are too far to recast on, and the armor duration is gone.

 

That's one example out of many,

 

I do see the point you're making, but I don't agree with it. Low levels this mod is a beast, and feels very powerful, just like the Galatine and many other mods/items in the game. The higher the levels the more things balance out. That's because rather than the items being nerfed/buffed, the game gets to a point where most things are balanced out.

 

Yes, it is fun to run around using my Ult constantly, and reaping in more blue orbs than the cost for casting my skills. That lasts for a certain point in the game until casting my ult 8 times on a single enemy won't kill it. Here's the scenario for you in a T3 survival:

 

Levels 1-25: Cast Reckoning. Things die.

Levels 25-40: Cast Reckoning. Run up to the staggered enemy and charge my Galatine. Things die.

Levels 40-60: Use my gun. Lots. Things get close, cast my ult, drop Hallowed Ground, and run. Repeat until they die.

Levels 60+: Find my teammates as I cannot efficiently kill an enemy alone to justify the time invested.

 

Fleeting Expertise helps make certain things possible and does not become the defining mod at certain levels in gameplay. I actually don't use the mod on certain frames due to me needing the mod slots for other important things and cannot sacrifice the duration penalty. Simply put, the mod is good, and so are a lot of other mods. It all balances out, and to "fix" anything will cause issues elsewhere.

[DannieRay23]

Nekros: Casting Terrify once will cause things to run away and have a reduced armor count. It will clear a crowd and make things easier to kill. The longer the duration the better. Shorten that, and after the first cast things are too far to recast on, and the armor duration is gone.

 

Missing quite a bit of the point.

 

Because of crappy skill scaling, a lot of skills are useless in high level play.

 

Even if you mod up for power Strength your same level breakdown still applies. Duration might be a bit different but that's not because Duration is inherently stronger but rather because the skills that benefit from duration tend to be % improvements or status effects which bring innate scaling to the table.

 

The underlying problem here might be skill scaling, but that doesn't mean that Efficiency isn't both OP and poorly programmed.