Petition To Restore Overheat To Ember

[RealPandemonium]

sure. but if we wanted to use accelerant. we would be on valkyr. her paralysis lasts longer, costs 5 energy, and lets you do finish moves on stunned enemys.

Paralysis is not a true stagger and finishing moves are weak and an impediment, if flashy.  It also has a tiny radius.  Valkyr also can't set the world on fire and can't do strong damage without weapons currently. Why am I arguing this strawman?

[Nyxcha]

Paralysis is not a true stagger and finishing moves are weak and an impediment, if flashy.  It also has a tiny radius.  Valkyr also can't set the world on fire and can't do strong damage without weapons currently. Why am I arguing this strawman?

 

paralysis costs 5 energy, so can be used 5 times compared to 1 accelerant.

finishing moves are 4x dmg

radius increasable by mods

 

valkyr's hysteria you can do 3k a hit due to insane crit rate. and use paralysis to further boost that.

 

hysteria punches can hit 3 enemys per hit.

 

not enough? her warcry increases her melee hit speed by 50% and decreases enemy movement by 30 as well as increasing armor by 50%

 

keep in mind her hysteria's dmg is boosted by her melee weapon. so better weapon = better dmg.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Arenta

[Break-Away]

I am the guy with 2 SMGs; Accelerant allows me to do that.  The risk is high but so is the reward.  Overheat has no risk.  It rewards lazy play and has no interaction.  It's a crutch that offers nothing that Accelerant doesn't also offer but better assuming optimal play.  

Overheat allows me to melee (Which I focus on) without much worry. Can't say the same for accelerant.

 

Accelerant is a nice ability, but Ember's base stats aren't good for the ability imo. Like I already said, the other squishy frames have something to make up for their low armor and shields that actually lasts a good while, if not the entire run, while we got Ember constantly having to spam accelerant just to not get downed in 3 seconds.

 

Anyone talking of Ember's greatness are probably using corrupted mods like fleeting expertise or whatever to really bypass what makes her so bad, but not everyone has access to this mod or have forma'd ember 6 times. You do that to any frame and they become godly with their "niche" (Excalibur for radial blind, Valkyr for warcry and paralysis, etc, etc.)

Edited April 25, 2014 by Break-Away

[RealPandemonium]

Overheat allows me to melee (Which I focus on) without much worry. Can't say the same for accelerant.

 

Accelerant is a nice ability, but Ember's base stats aren't good for the ability imo. Like I already said, the other squishy frames have something to make up for their low armor and shields that actually lasts a good while, if not the entire run, while we got Ember constantly having to spam accelerant just to not get downed in 3 seconds.

 

Anyone talking of Ember's greatness are probably using corrupted mods like fleeting expertise or whatever to really bypass what makes her so bad, but not everyone has access to this mod or have forma'd ember 6 times. You do that to any frame and they become godly with their "niche" (Excalibur for radial blind, Valkyr for warcry and paralysis, etc, etc.)

Warframe balance assumes that you eventually max out your frame.  If you guys are arguing that Ember sucks while you haven't maxed her out then your feedback is skewed and inapplicable to the discussion.  With just Fleeting Expertise and Streamline Ember becomes super powerful with no forma or potato.  With a full build you can do many things (though WoF requires too many mods to make it strong; that should be looked at.)  

 

I would also like to see you list the things that make the other frail frames more survivable than Ember.

[Nyxcha]

Warframe balance assumes that you eventually max out your frame.  If you guys are arguing that Ember sucks while you haven't maxed her out then your feedback is skewed and inapplicable to the discussion.  With just Fleeting Expertise and Streamline Ember becomes super powerful with no forma or potato.  With a full build you can do many things (though WoF requires too many mods to make it strong; that should be looked at.)  

 

I would also like to see you list the things that make the other frail frames more survivable than Ember.

speed, higher than average shields

utility skills liek volt's shield or speed

crowd control skills like nyx's chaos  (world on fire does not count as it doesnt stagger)

ash and loki's stealth 

excalibur's 65 armor and the slash dash / super jump.

 

 

things that don't rely on enemy level to perform well, but rather perform the same regardless of any level.

examples are ripline, chaos, volt speed and shield, stealth. 

[RealPandemonium]

But a spammable radial stun and huge damage that can also stagger doesn't count as survivability?  You are also comparing a percentage decrease of damage to those "utility survivability" abilities.  I would like to see what Break-Away offers in his answer.  

Edited April 25, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[LukeAura]

I would also like to see you list the things that make the other frail frames more survivable than Ember.

I'll list them off then,

Nyx - Chaos, long range, good duration that is moddable for longer/shorter depending on need, fairly safe method of removing threats. Absorb, short range, very safe method of removing threats/regenerating shields. Mind Control helps too I guess.

Nekros - Terrify, longer lasting CC than anything Ember has. Shadows of the dead distracts enemies.

Nova- M prime, halve enemy dps, double damage, chained explosions. Enemies can't kill you if they're dead first. Very mobile.

Loki-Invisibility, extended periods of time when enemies won't try to kill you. Best mobility helps against corpus/infested.

Trinity- Ble...okay we all know this one.

Vauban-Bastille Vortex, spammable kind of long lasting CCs.

Ember- Very brief or RNG based CCs not quite cheap enough to be spammed, or long enough to keep safe.  World on Fire hitting limitted targets at a time as a DoT simply doesn't remove threats fast enough. She's also slower than 1.1 speed casters.

Simply put frail frames either have long lasting protection, or enough damage to make short duration CCs enough to save them before nuking. Ember doesn't kill fast enough for short ccs, she doesn't cc long enough for a slower but powerful WoF.

I think though Ember is a very good candidate for being a jack of all trades in terms of defenses, each one of her abilities could be complimented with a small form of defense, leading up to a much stronger defensive output. Very brief damage reduction, short CC, short bursts of high damage in small areas, bursts of mobility. Nothing like any other frame has where they have one powerful defensive button, but several smaller defensive buttons that are more tailorable and flexible to situations. 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2014 by LukeAura

[RealPandemonium]

I'll list them off then,

Nyx - Chaos, long range, good duration that is moddable for longer/shorter depending on need, fairly safe method of removing threats. Absorb, short range, very safe method of removing threats/regenerating shields. Mind Control helps too I guess.

Nekros - Terrify, longer lasting CC than anything Ember has. Shadows of the dead distracts enemies.

Nova- M prime, halve enemy dps, double damage, chained explosions. Enemies can't kill you if they're dead first. Very mobile.

Loki-Invisibility, extended periods of time when enemies won't try to kill you. Best mobility helps against corpus/infested.

Trinity- Ble...okay we all know this one.

Vauban-Bastille Vortex, spammable kind of long lasting CCs.

Nyx - This is a powerful and exploitable frame but is not toxic in regular play, good comparison.

Nekros - Terrify's number of targets is tied to power strength, they are chosen haphazardly, and it cannot be recast for its duration or until they are all killed.  This ability needs fixing and is in no way superior to Accelerant as a CC tool.  

Nova - It's freaking Nova.  Not a fair comparison and a balance menace.

Loki - Loki is super exploitable and trivializes all gameplay, but is defensively much weaker than Ember (stat-wise) and has no offensive abilities besides the SDM.  Apples to oranges here.

Trinity - See Nova.

Vauban - Vauban's survivability consists of spamming traps which is exploitable but fun and good gameplay (bastille is dull though.)

 

Overall the frames listed above all focus on crowd control or have some exploitable ability that turns off gameplay.  Ember's CC requires gameplay and is effective.  Keep in mind that Tenno are fast with coptering and walljumping even if you're Frost (Ember could use a sprint speed buff to smooth out the edges though) and will be dashing among cover and mitigating damage by avoiding it.  No warframe besides the stealthers can just walk up to enemies with no concern for their safety.  Between good movement habits and Accelerant stuns Ember can render herself very safe while dealing strong damage.  Fire Blast sucks and WoF takes too many mods to make it good (range is too short to use Narrow Minded and duration is too short to use Fleeting Expertise, but Fleeting Expertise is the status quo and makes her other abilities amazing, more amazing than WoF which is her second weakest link.)

Edited April 25, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[FitzSimmons]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

"overheat made me able to melee lalalalala"

here choose, get hit when melee or melee while enemies get stunned, means you dont have to be afraid to get hit?

they gave better option why dont you use it wisely?

Edited April 25, 2014 by buavita

[FitzSimmons]

you wanna be the sniper campin in the back for several hours

 

or you wanna be the guy with 2 SMGs running around kickin peoples heads off while going fire crazy?

i can still going fire crazy while enemies are blind......

IF they bring back overheat, then there will be another issue....."please increase overheat defense, its still kinda squishy" booom

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

I'll list them off then,

Nyx - Chaos, long range, good duration that is moddable for longer/shorter depending on need, fairly safe method of removing threats. Absorb, short range, very safe method of removing threats/regenerating shields. Mind Control helps too I guess.

Nekros - Terrify, longer lasting CC than anything Ember has. Shadows of the dead distracts enemies.

Nova- M prime, halve enemy dps, double damage, chained explosions. Enemies can't kill you if they're dead first. Very mobile.

Loki-Invisibility, extended periods of time when enemies won't try to kill you. Best mobility helps against corpus/infested.

Trinity- Ble...okay we all know this one.

Vauban-Bastille Vortex, spammable kind of long lasting CCs.

Ember- Very brief or RNG based CCs not quite cheap enough to be spammed, or long enough to keep safe.  World on Fire hitting limitted targets at a time as a DoT simply doesn't remove threats fast enough. She's also slower than 1.1 speed casters.

Simply put frail frames either have long lasting protection, or enough damage to make short duration CCs enough to save them before nuking. Ember doesn't kill fast enough for short ccs, she doesn't cc long enough for a slower but powerful WoF.

I think though Ember is a very good candidate for being a jack of all trades in terms of defenses, each one of her abilities could be complimented with a small form of defense, leading up to a much stronger defensive output. Very brief damage reduction, short CC, short bursts of high damage in small areas, bursts of mobility. Nothing like any other frame has where they have one powerful defensive button, but several smaller defensive buttons that are more tailorable and flexible to situations. 

 

 

 

 

Except you're ignoring that 

 

Nyx-

almost no way of causing any damage with her abilities, controlled enemy DPS from my experience is poor, or their accuracy is. Pychic bolts is rubbish and Absorb deals magnetic damage (making it terrible) and is also entirely dependent on the damage and agro draw off enemies or allies. Nyx is a brilliant CC frame, but she has little in the way of damage buff and damage powers.

 

Nekros-

Terrify is absolute garbage, I won't go into Nekros as I have a low opinion of his abilities.

 

Nova-

Getting looked at currently, but Nova should never ever be used as a comparison to justify the existence of buffs and powers, MP is stupidly OP and covers every aspect in the game. CC, 200% damage buff, 50% debuff, AoE damage, with a huge range. Ember, and no other frame should ever be compared to Nova. It's like comparing frame's survivability to Trinity and then asking for buffs. 

 

Loki-

As with Nyx, absolutely no way to cause direct damage. He's entirely dependent on weapon DPS. He's great, but he's got a big cap on his damage potential, namely the player's weapons. With Melee 2.0 we saw the Galantine get nerfed, previously that combo was so powerful it was a given that a Loki would always carry a Galantine. He also has 500 shields with maxed redirection and 200 odd HP, he dies if someone even looks at him wrong, if there was any frame that needed invisibility it's him.

 

Trinity-

Nerf bat incoming

 

Vauban-

Same as Nyx and Loki, only Tesla has a chance to cause any real damage. He's great for CC, but like them he's got armour and shields made of tissue paper, plus his powers are short range, limited by his grenade throwing range, you won't be firing balls of fire, or lightning like Ember and Volt across the map.

 

 

Ember-

None of those frames have any ability which significantly boosts DPS or deals direct damage. Overheat was a bad decision, a frame which is capable of dealing 27,000 damage using accelerant and WoF should never have CC or DR on the scale of the above frames, it's game breaking. Ember is a DoT frame, she is not a jack of all trades and never will be, she shouldn't be. If you want that then pick Rhino, he is the epitome of jack of all trades. Other than Ember we have no DoT based damage frame. 

 

Accelerant is also not RNG, it gives a guaranteed stagger of approximately 3 seconds along with a 250% damage buff. This is exactly long enough to activate WoF which is 2 seconds I believe (can also be activated in mid air and sliding)

 

My issues with Ember are however, 

 

Speed, needs to be upped to 1.15

Accelerant, the damage buff % should be toned down and the damage % of all her powers correspondingly increased so she's not so dependant on spamming it at high lvls.

WoF, great power, but could do with 100% proc chance for each hit for CC, possibly widen the individual AoE of each explosion, maybe. 

Fireblast, needs a stagger or knock back on the initial blast radius, the ring of fire could do with a 100% proc chance for anything moving through it.

 

That's about it, She's in a good position now, just a few tweeks here and there, but she does not need anything close to a rework or to be transformed into a Jack of all trades, AoE nuker, or anything of the sort. 

Edited April 26, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[DeadlyFred]

Why should a caster not have the capacity, though a skill, to be able to tank damage to some extent? They're called "utility" skills for a reason, folks. 

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Why should a caster not have the capacity, though a skill, to be able to tank damage to some extent? They're called "utility" skills for a reason, folks. 

 

Because she can currently deal 27,000 damage only using Intensify, Constitution and continuity. You want to stack a 40% DR on top of that? They're trying to balance the frames, not create another Trinity.