Suggestion: The Silent Sidearm Weapon, The Energy Kunai

[HadronVictorioso]

R4YCH4OS, I'd prefer not to have a wrist shooter... A throwing motion would be much more preferable for it to be ninja-like...

Anyways, yeah, the issue with having it formed of the Warframe's energy would be an issue with power management. How's this for a suggestion: the wrist thing that forms the senbons carries its own energy packet, which can form a certain number of senbons (200 - 250?) without recharge - recharges should be made available through special weapons packets dropped by enemies - yes, a new ammo type, essentially, or really just an energy orb in ammo packet form that only works for these kinds of weapons. Perhaps called special weapon ammo?

[Zyfe3r]

Since the bow is released, we finally got a stealth weapon. But what about the sidearm weapon? I really like the silencer mod idea by charleon

What ??? Who??

I came up with the idea of silenced guns and DESteve gave the idea about silence mods

[Reonian]

Instead of kunai, energy senbon would be more apt.

I dont know if its been said but aside from this epic idea if the senbon was used why not make a defence/offensive power to along with it like Frosts avalanche but senbon tornado/kunai or sommet were your surrounded by loads and they fire off all at ounce in all directions. Of course it be the 4th power , cost the mot energy. just saying if a ninja type is being though of why not give him a bada** finisher. much like this but tenno instead of umbrella hahah

Edited March 26, 2013 by Reonian

[HadronVictorioso]

I dont know if its been said but aside from this epic idea if the senbon was used why not make a defence/offensive power to along with it like Frosts avalanche but senbon tornado/kunai or sommet were your surrounded by loads and they fire off all at ounce in all directions. Of course it be the 4th power , cost the mot energy. just saying if a ninja type is being though of why not give him a bada** finisher.

Em... I don't really agree. Just because we're discussing ninja weapons doesn't mean we have to turn this game into a stylized Naruto version.

[Venarge]

What ??? Who??

I came up with the idea of silenced guns and DESteve gave the idea about silence mods

There was a thread about silencer mods made by charleon. Thats the only thing I saw this day so I applied to it ^^ Nothing personal :D

[Venarge]

I dont know if its been said but aside from this epic idea if the senbon was used why not make a defence/offensive power to along with it like Frosts avalanche but senbon tornado/kunai or sommet were your surrounded by loads and they fire off all at ounce in all directions. Of course it be the 4th power , cost the mot energy. just saying if a ninja type is being though of why not give him a bada** finisher. much like this but tenno instead of umbrella hahah

The idea itself seems nice. But I think thats a bit too much. The senbons are supposed to be simple stealth ranged weapons ^^ If they would get a finishing move/ super power, people would complain about their weapons and why they dont get a finisher too ;)

[HadronVictorioso]

The idea itself seems nice. But I think thats a bit too much. The senbons are supposed to be simple stealth ranged weapons ^^ If they would get a finishing move/ super power, people would complain about their weapons and why they dont get a finisher too ;)

I know I would complain about my Scindo not getting an executioner-style decapitation finisher.

[Venarge]

I know I would complain about my Scindo not getting an executioner-style decapitation finisher.

Well and to be true, I would complain about not getting something like that for my fangs :D

[HadronVictorioso]

Well and to be true, I would complain about not getting something like that for my fangs :D

Like the neck stab the Loki pulls off in the Open Beta Launch Trailer?

[Venarge]

Like the neck stab the Loki pulls off in the Open Beta Launch Trailer?

Exactly :3

[Tyzh]

A steath side arm would, unfortunately, be a weapon a bit at odds with itself the way the game works currently. The idea about throwing needles/daggers/shuriken is neat and all, but as a side arm suffers from some immediate balance issues.

Weapons all draw ammo from a particular ammo pool. In this case it would, like all side arms, draw it's ammo from pistol pick ups. Meaning it will have about 200 ammo starting out and get more ammo every time pistol ammo drops (which is quite common). This is at odds with fundamental aspects of stealth play as they are in this game, because stealth is all about dispatching an enemy before they can alert their friends. Stealth clearing a room with the Paris depends on those 1-shot kills to keep all the targets in the dark. Miss a headshot or forget to charge your bow and the guy with an arrow sticking out of him starts making all kinds of noise.

Now, the problem there is that for the side-arm to be an effective stealth weapon, silenced or no, it needs a high alpha damage potential to dispatch the target before alerts are raised. As common as pistol ammo is the weapons suggested here run the risk of becoming silent high-damage weapons that never run out of ammo. That's just too much.

My suggestion would be as follows:

Some kind of needle/dart pistol weapon.

Standard firing releases a single needle/dart at a time that is a slow moving (like the bolt weapons) projectile, bullet drop, armor piercing, and silenced. 10 damage.

Clip size of 12.

Charging the weapon causes it to discharge it's entire clip in one shotgun style blast of darts/needles. (120 damage total.)

This would have the weapon play like a silent armor piercing bronco with a slower fire rate, much tighter spread, and higher ammo consumption. It would allow the weapon to have clear benefits over other options, while giving it drawbacks preventing it from becoming over-all superior. It's slow fire rate and high ammo consumption would lead to it being less effective in a fight against numerous alerted enemies, while allowing it the alpha-damage a stealth weapon needs to be effective. It's shotgun-esque nature would make it a nice compliment to the longer ranges of the Paris while still reaching out further than melee killing the enemies. It'd fill the gap in the stealth weapon kit quite nicely, even if it doesn't have the ninja flavor of the throwing impliments suggested elsewhere in this thread.

[Wellwisher]

R4YCH4OS, I'd prefer not to have a wrist shooter... A throwing motion would be much more preferable for it to be ninja-like...

Anyways, yeah, the issue with having it formed of the Warframe's energy would be an issue with power management. How's this for a suggestion: the wrist thing that forms the senbons carries its own energy packet, which can form a certain number of senbons (200 - 250?) without recharge - recharges should be made available through special weapons packets dropped by enemies - yes, a new ammo type, essentially, or really just an energy orb in ammo packet form that only works for these kinds of weapons. Perhaps called special weapon ammo?

Well the whole point of it costing power would be that you would have to manage your power around. This would also prevent it from becoming to prevelant in players not actually going for stealth like the Paris is at the moment.

A steath side arm would, unfortunately, be a weapon a bit at odds with itself the way the game works currently. The idea about throwing needles/daggers/shuriken is neat and all, but as a side arm suffers from some immediate balance issues.

Weapons all draw ammo from a particular ammo pool. In this case it would, like all side arms, draw it's ammo from pistol pick ups. Meaning it will have about 200 ammo starting out and get more ammo every time pistol ammo drops (which is quite common). This is at odds with fundamental aspects of stealth play as they are in this game, because stealth is all about dispatching an enemy before they can alert their friends. Stealth clearing a room with the Paris depends on those 1-shot kills to keep all the targets in the dark. Miss a headshot or forget to charge your bow and the guy with an arrow sticking out of him starts making all kinds of noise.

Now, the problem there is that for the side-arm to be an effective stealth weapon, silenced or no, it needs a high alpha damage potential to dispatch the target before alerts are raised. As common as pistol ammo is the weapons suggested here run the risk of becoming silent high-damage weapons that never run out of ammo. That's just too much.

My suggestion would be as follows:

Some kind of needle/dart pistol weapon.

Standard firing releases a single needle/dart at a time that is a slow moving (like the bolt weapons) projectile, bullet drop, armor piercing, and silenced. 10 damage.

Clip size of 12.

Charging the weapon causes it to discharge it's entire clip in one shotgun style blast of darts/needles. (120 damage total.)

This would have the weapon play like a silent armor piercing bronco with a slower fire rate, much tighter spread, and higher ammo consumption. It would allow the weapon to have clear benefits over other options, while giving it drawbacks preventing it from becoming over-all superior. It's slow fire rate and high ammo consumption would lead to it being less effective in a fight against numerous alerted enemies, while allowing it the alpha-damage a stealth weapon needs to be effective. It's shotgun-esque nature would make it a nice compliment to the longer ranges of the Paris while still reaching out further than melee killing the enemies. It'd fill the gap in the stealth weapon kit quite nicely, even if it doesn't have the ninja flavor of the throwing impliments suggested elsewhere in this thread.

That also seems like a pretty nice idea, remember that these ideas dont have to be exclusive, we could always just have both.

Also i think you are bit too afraid to move away from the norm as far as mechanics are concerned, these weapons could simply have a much smaller ammo pool, or have some other thing to offset their power.

[Tyzh]

Also i think you are bit too afraid to move away from the norm as far as mechanics are concerned, these weapons could simply have a much smaller ammo pool, or have some other thing to offset their power.

It's not just the ammo pool. It's the drops as well. Weapons of the same type/class having diifferent ammo reserves/return is not only unprecidented, but would require an overhaul of the ammo system.

I feel "add this" is a better type of suggestion than "change all of this so you can add this".

[HadronVictorioso]

Well the whole point of it costing power would be that you would have to manage your power around. This would also prevent it from becoming to prevelant in players not actually going for stealth like the Paris is at the moment.

I was the one who originally came up with the idea for it to draw directly from your Warframe's power suppy. I know.

[HadronVictorioso]

It's not just the ammo pool. It's the drops as well. Weapons of the same type/class having diifferent ammo reserves/return is not only unprecidented, but would require an overhaul of the ammo system.

How would adding one extra type of ammo require an overhaul of the entire system, hmm?

[Tyzh]

How would adding one extra type of ammo require an overhaul of the entire system, hmm?

I wasn't talking to you nor about adding another type of ammo.

[Wellwisher]

I was the one who originally came up with the idea for it to draw directly from your Warframe's power suppy. I know.

Lost track fo who said what and was to tired to make sense of anything you said, my response was quite unnecessary.

It's not just the ammo pool. It's the drops as well. Weapons of the same type/class having diifferent ammo reserves/return is not only unprecidented, but would require an overhaul of the ammo system.

I feel "add this" is a better type of suggestion than "change all of this so you can add this".

Which is why the suggestion to do away completely with ammo for that weapons and replacing the cost with energy was made. All changed would be isolated to that weapon.

[DalaiLlama]

No offence;but even with energy-produced senbons;it'll have to depend the density of the mass of energy that forms it so that it can impale victims to walls.Then there's the velocity bla...bla...

Still I think a senbon wrist-launcher would be okay...

BTW,those aside,since senbon(or needles)is used in acupunture,make it as:

A throw to the arm briefly disarms the marine/crewmen's gunfire

Or for Infested,makes their attack rate stops briefly

A throw to leg pins victims down temporary

A hit to stomach would staggers it momentarily

HEADSHOT?Insta KO or super lethal damage :D

First off. Energy does not have mass. Before you go talking to me about the gravitational properties of light, consider that light is made of photons, which in turn are particles and have mass. About velocity, that could be true. But also consider momentum. A small needle is not going to have a lot of momentum to pin enemies to walls. In reality.

I believe the presence of the energy or heating up the needles to blue-hot state is simply to penetrate the armor the enemies ingame wear, as simple ferrite needles probably wouldn't do much for ya.

Also, you pose some cool ideas as for hitting different parts of an enemy's body. That sounds to me a little overpowered, and a little complicated. However, this could help compensate for the fact that senbon are in reality, very ineffective weapons. Why? Well they are needles. Hitting someone in the arm with some needles isn't going to kill them. Heck, we do it all the time at the doctor's office. Getting hit in the extremities ingame then, would probably deal very little damage if the guys at DE had any respect for realism. The only time they would be lethal is if they hit some vital organ, or straight to the head. Although an instant KO to the head... sounds overpowered to me, but a stealth kill that doesnt kill the enemy instantly that allows him to call help... it sounds overpowered, but also necessary.

Anyways, yeah, the issue with having it formed of the Warframe's energy would be an issue with power management. How's this for a suggestion: the wrist thing that forms the senbons carries its own energy packet, which can form a certain number of senbons (200 - 250?) without recharge - recharges should be made available through special weapons packets dropped by enemies - yes, a new ammo type, essentially, or really just an energy orb in ammo packet form that only works for these kinds of weapons. Perhaps called special weapon ammo?

A new ammunition type. I'm thinking of something on the lines of ninja tools, like traps and such that are refilled by this special ammo pickup. But as this weapon is simply another projectile weapon, I don't feel that having to rely on special ammunition would make much sense. I think I know what you're getting at here... but... well think about it. You've got a stealth primary weapon, a silenced secondary weapon, and then more projectiles. Projectile, Projectile, Projectile. If you know what I mean.

But if you want to keep the senbon as a secondary weapon that would rely on a new ammunition type, I don't really see a high chance of that happening.

I dont know if its been said but aside from this epic idea if the senbon was used why not make a defence/offensive power to along with it like Frosts avalanche but senbon tornado/kunai or sommet were your surrounded by loads and they fire off all at ounce in all directions. Of course it be the 4th power , cost the mot energy. just saying if a ninja type is being though of why not give him a bada** finisher. much like this but tenno instead of umbrella hahah

Much, much too overpowered. What, do you wish to keep a secondary weapon with enough ammo for a single use? aka one umbrella. Also keep in mind the small size of many of the current map cells.

Edited March 27, 2013 by DalaiLlama

[DalaiLlama]

Now, the problem there is that for the side-arm to be an effective stealth weapon, silenced or no, it needs a high alpha damage potential to dispatch the target before alerts are raised. As common as pistol ammo is the weapons suggested here run the risk of becoming silent high-damage weapons that never run out of ammo. That's just too much.

Also, stealth or not, we already have weapons like that. What about the Bronco? That thing is so ammunition efficient that... well the only time I've ever really run out was against some boss fight, and I was holding a datamass for some reason.

As I said before, Senbon are realistically very non-lethal. I'd suppose a balance to the high amount of ammunition available would be the difficulty in scoring an instant silent kill. Sure, you may only need that ammunition after you get discovered and until then you would have a lot of ammunition. In an extreme example it would look as if you did not kill anybody at all. But is that not the point of playing true stealth anyways? Trying to evade detection, kill only who you need to kill, avoid engagement? Anytime I see someone trying to play stealth by clearing the room I just shake my head and move on.

[Venarge]

Also, stealth or not, we already have weapons like that. What about the Bronco? That thing is so ammunition efficient that... well the only time I've ever really run out was against some boss fight, and I was holding a datamass for some reason.

As I said before, Senbon are realistically very non-lethal. I'd suppose a balance to the high amount of ammunition available would be the difficulty in scoring an instant silent kill. Sure, you may only need that ammunition after you get discovered and until then you would have a lot of ammunition. In an extreme example it would look as if you did not kill anybody at all. But is that not the point of playing true stealth anyways? Trying to evade detection, kill only who you need to kill, avoid engagement? Anytime I see someone trying to play stealth by clearing the room I just shake my head and move on.

True, Its difficult to find the right path for a weapon that is made for stealth gameplay but is not the ultra high damage weapon like lex.

As you mentioned: stealth doesnt mean to clear the whole room without being seen.

I think senbons could have very high crit rates during its charged throw. So if the player gets detected, he cant simply insta kill all the enemies, cause most damage of the senbons would be its crit mulitplier =) Higher crit rates and a "long" charge time would make it a real stealth weapon cause your not misled to kill everyone in a room. Besides that, its "realistic" that you have a long charge time with them. It requires enormous concentration and power to be able to throw something like that effectively. ^^

Edited March 27, 2013 by Venarge

[R4YCH40S]

And something so puny and so....non lethal.

Looking forward to its accomplishment.

Since there's a G.Master and Master....why not bring these "senbon" ideas up D.C?

[Wellwisher]

True, Its difficult to find the right path for a weapon that is made for stealth gameplay but is not the ultra high damage weapon like lex.

As you mentioned: stealth doesnt mean to clear the whole room without being seen.

I think senbons could have very high crit rates during its charged throw. So if the player gets detected, he cant simply insta kill all the enemies, cause most damage of the senbons would be its crit mulitplier =) Higher crit rates and a "long" charge time would make it a real stealth weapon cause your not misled to kill everyone in a room. Besides that, its "realistic" that you have a long charge time with them. It requires enormous concentration and power to be able to throw something like that effectively. ^^

Well in the end something we can all agree on is i think that a stealth sidearm that adheres to the current implementation of weapons would need to be very slow (so much so that its not effective in direct combat), but have high damage to be able to oneshot enemies with headshots.

Has anyone considered giving weapons as small as senbons other benefits? For example, they could just deal very little damage, but paralyze enemies for a few seconds, such that you have time to dispatch them with the Paris or Melee. You know something along those lines.

And something so puny and so....non lethal.

Looking forward to its accomplishment.

Since there's a G.Master and Master....why not bring these "senbon" ideas up D.C?

The design council is not the place for individual suggestion like this, but more to vote and give feedback on the planned direction of the game.

[Venarge]

And something so puny and so....non lethal.

Looking forward to its accomplishment.

Since there's a G.Master and Master....why not bring these "senbon" ideas up D.C?

I think they already noticed the thread. Many views and many replies. I think they already looked at it ^^

[Ganwybas]

naruto fans ...oh god ...you so ridiculos

[Venarge]

naruto fans ...oh god ...you so ridiculos

Oh wow. What a usefull post. I cant describe its usefullness....

These weapons existed before naruto came up with it. Not everyone who suggests ninja weapons knows them from naruto.....

So please, just go....

Edited March 27, 2013 by Venarge