The Lethal Torrent Debate

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

It is known to most avid Warframe players that many secondaries like the Detron, Brakk, Akvasto, Akbolto, etc... excel at killing enemies at a much faster rate than most of the current primaries. The reason behind this is one little mod: Lethal Torrent. Adding this mod to any secondary weapon will give it a total of 180% multi-shot if combined with Barrel Diffusion. This means that your bullets will always split into twice as many and you are given an additional 80% chance that they will split into 3. On primaries, with a rank 5 Split Chamber, you get a 90% chance that your bullets will split into 2.

 

Shotguns are given this issue as well. Point Blank, the shotgun damage mod, only goes up to rank 5. However, shotguns do have multiple damage mods helping to offset the balance issue.

 

In short, secondaries are arguably twice as powerful as primaries. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

 

However, I have 2 solutions to up the lethality of primary weapons:

 

1. The addition of a mod that adds multi-shot chance to primaries. This could be a Nightmare or Corrupted mod, I personally wouldn't mind.

 

2. The preferable choice would be to make Split Chamber go up to rank 10. Many might scoff at this proposal, but it would make it tough and rewarding to put in the effort of ranking it up, as well as making it nice and expensive!

 

Other Solutions:

 

1. Buff all damage and multi-shot mods to be equal to their secondary counterparts.

 

2. Balance the current multi-shot mods so that there is no possibility of obtaining >100% multi-shot chance.

 

3. Remove Damage mods and correlate damage to weapon rank.

 

4. Remove multi-shot mods and substitute the multi-shot aspect of lethal torrent with a proc chance. Then buff Hornet Strike and Serration.

 

 

 

If you have any constructive criticism or feedback regarding my solutions, please feel free to add to the discussion.

Edited February 9, 2014 by joeb779

[KTribute]

Not just Lethal Torrent is an issue.

 

Barrel Diffusion vs Split Chamber favors Pistols over Rifles.

Hornet Strike vs Serration favors PIstols over Rifles.

 

Adding more bandaid mods aren't going to fix this issue. The issue would be balance the current mods.

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Not just Lethal Torrent is an issue.

 

Barrel Diffusion vs Split Chamber favors Pistols over Rifles.

Hornet Strike vs Serration favors PIstols over Rifles.

 

Adding more bandaid mods aren't going to fix this issue. The issue would be balance the current mods.

 

Very true. I think that balancing Serration to have an equal damage buff as Hornet Strike to be a very valid idea.

[cladin]

I want split chamber buffed to the point where i can unload a full clip of a penta in one click!!!!11!1one

 

edit: also remember that in dev stream 22 they said something about taking out serration/hornet strike if i remember correctly.

Edited February 9, 2014 by cladin

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

I want split chamber buffed to the point where i can unload a full clip of a penta in one click!!!!11!1one

 

edit: also remember that in dev stream 22 they said something about taking out serration/hornet strike if i remember correctly.

That was just a joke. They'd have everyone in an uproar if they did that :P

[Cyrionn]

Our weapons are already way too powerfull making us get to levels were most of the abilities doesn't have any sense as long as they're not scaling or hard CC. Buffing them would create even more disparity.

 

Edit : No, they mentionned it but said "No, it's not planned to take Serration away for the moment."

Edited February 9, 2014 by Cyrionn

[lautalocos]

lethal torrent should never give, with any mod combination, 100% or more, because then it just becomes a damage mod.

it would be better if our weapons just gained the damage lost for that mod not giving 100% when leveling up

[Tveoh]

What No Love towards the Shotgun ones?   Point Blank..  damage mod...  90% max damage buff.   why Can't that be changed to go higher?   Shotties get no love :/

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

What No Love towards the Shotgun ones?   Point Blank..  damage mod...  90% max damage buff.   why Can't that be changed to go higher?   Shotties get no love :/

I can add in some info regarding shotguns as well. #ShotgunLove2014

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

lethal torrent should never give, with any mod combination, 100% or more, because then it just becomes a damage mod.

it would be better if our weapons just gained the damage lost for that mod not giving 100% when leveling up

I see what you mean. Interesting idea.

[ChaoticVice777]

What No Love towards the Shotgun ones?   Point Blank..  damage mod...  90% max damage buff.   why Can't that be changed to go higher?   Shotties get no love :/

 

Because you can stack damage so easily? Combining Point Blank, Blaze, and Vicious Spread give you 270% more damage, albeit costing more mod slots and costing far less fusion cores. Thus, the difference of the multishot mods are more balanced out (120% versus 180%).

 

Rifles do have Heavy Caliber, which boosts damage to 330%, but the accuracy is reduced heavily, which is very problematic and doesn't balance out the multishot (90% versus 180%).

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Rifles do have Heavy Caliber, which boosts damage to 330%, but the accuracy is reduced heavily, which is very problematic and doesn't balance out the multishot (90% versus 180%).

I tend to use Heavy Caliber on my continuous fire weapons. Many use it on weapons like the Soma, but I prefer a more accurate weapon if I want to go medium-long range.

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Edit : No, they mentionned it but said "No, it's not planned to take Serration away for the moment."

I really don't think they would take away our damage mods.

[Zephyric_Reaper]

Pistols usually have poor ammo economy, for starters. 

Brakk, detron, bronco P are slightly out of balance because they're pistol shotguns and they don't exactly carry on with the disadvantages. Brakk, is a totally different monster however and it should NOT be brought up in conversation abouts balanced, because THAT gun is, precisely, unbalanced. 

The semi pistols are a whole different issue. I bet you only saw "Oh, dps frame says this does SO much damage..." but if you look closely you would be shooting around ....15 bullets per second? Good luck doing that without getting carpal syndrome and/or cheat. Those pistols are fine it's just their fire rate that inflates the numbers. 

If you take away said mod to other pistols they WILL suffer a lot. Pistols pretty much have such powerful mods to compensate for their low RoF and not so high base dmg. As well as having two gimped elemental mods and quite low crit mods. 

 

All in all, you're looking at it too closely and should look at the bigger spectrum. It is -sort of- balanced, it's just some weapons are off the chart. Should the mod(s) be changed or removed then you'll open another huge box that you gotta fix and, I bet you haven't thought of that. 

To make you think better of some primaries I'll give you these to think about

Shred

540 ammo

Common ammo drop

Bigger mags

No click-maniac

Big crits

Easier aim

All 90% elementals

100% crit chance

Cooler sounds!

Heavy cal

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Pistols usually have poor ammo economy, for starters. 

Brakk, detron, bronco P are slightly out of balance because they're pistol shotguns and they don't exactly carry on with the disadvantages. Brakk, is a totally different monster however and it should NOT be brought up in conversation abouts balanced, because THAT gun is, precisely, unbalanced. 

The semi pistols are a whole different issue. I bet you only saw "Oh, dps frame says this does SO much damage..." but if you look closely you would be shooting around ....15 bullets per second? Good luck doing that without getting carpal syndrome and/or cheat. Those pistols are fine it's just their fire rate that inflates the numbers. 

If you take away said mod to other pistols they WILL suffer a lot. Pistols pretty much have such powerful mods to compensate for their low RoF and not so high base dmg. As well as having two gimped elemental mods and quite low crit mods. 

 

All in all, you're looking at it too closely and should look at the bigger spectrum. It is -sort of- balanced, it's just some weapons are off the chart. Should the mod(s) be changed or removed then you'll open another huge box that you gotta fix and, I bet you haven't thought of that. 

To make you think better of some primaries I'll give you these to think about

Shred

540 ammo

Common ammo drop

Bigger mags

No click-maniac

Big crits

Easier aim

All 90% elementals

100% crit chance

Cooler sounds!

Heavy cal

I don't trust dpsframe and I don't recommend using it. I can only speak from experience.

 

I mainly tend to use my Akvasto, Detron, and Stug; all of which are very ammo efficient. If I do bring any ammo inefficient weapon, I tend to substitute my other with something efficient to offset it. That's the main reason I prefer to use accurate, slower firing weapons instead of putting Speed Trigger and Shred on a Soma and watching my ammo count cry.

 

In the larger scheme of things, the balance issues are only truly visible when you start fighting enemies that are over level 100. Not many people do that so few will ever see the issues. What would you propose doing to help alleviate the problem?

[theammostore]

What No Love towards the Shotgun ones?   Point Blank..  damage mod...  90% max damage buff.   why Can't that be changed to go higher?   Shotties get no love :/

I suspect that's at 90% max because A) They already deal massive damage per pellet up close, upwards of hundreds per shell and B)They have 3 damage mods rather than just two

[Kaidinah]

Don't make Barrel Diffusion more ranks. Just make every rank worth more! Its already hard enough as it is leveling up Serration.

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Don't make Barrel Diffusion more ranks. Just make every rank worth more! Its already hard enough as it is leveling up Serration.

That would definitely be a viable solution as well. Serration isn't TOO tough, but it can take a while. Then on to Heavy Caliber... XD

[MoyuTheTrinity]

Well these mods where made to balance like this before most of the problematic questionably strong secondarys where made.

The mods where originaly intended to make weak secondarys jsut as good as primarys but they seam to have forgoten this when they created the stats for alot of the new pistols specificly the brakk and 2ndly the detron

 

Edit: what if we had an extream buff to all other secondarys that arnt actualy useful past level 35 and then nerf the pistol mods and just act like it never happend?

Edited February 9, 2014 by MoyuTheMedic

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Well these mods where made to balance like this before most of the problematic questionably strong secondarys where made.

The mods where originaly intended to make weak secondarys jsut as good as primarys but they seam to have forgoten this when they created the stats for alot of the new pistols specificly the brakk and 2ndly the detron

 

Edit: what if we had an extream buff to all other secondarys that arnt actualy useful past level 35 and then nerf the pistol mods and just act like it never happend?

With enough forma anything becomes decent. I think that nerfing would just cause people to get angry like usual. I'd rather see Split Chamber buffed to accommodate 10 ranks.

[Phunkiecrux]

Because you can stack damage so easily? Combining Point Blank, Blaze, and Vicious Spread give you 270% more damage, albeit costing more mod slots and costing far less fusion cores. Thus, the difference of the multishot mods are more balanced out (120% versus 180%).

 

Rifles do have Heavy Caliber, which boosts damage to 330%, but the accuracy is reduced heavily, which is very problematic and doesn't balance out the multishot (90% versus 180%).

 

You don't FIX something by putting something else together with it. (Example, you don't put two weak batteries together to make a strong battery, you just use one strong battery, it's less work, makes more sense, and fits in to what it needs to easily)

 

Pistols ALSO have a corrupted mod, Magnum Force. 

 

Rifle's multishot is underpowered and Shotgun's % damage is underpowered.

[Eric1738]

well shred is as good as lethal torrent to be honest. i dont really think lethal torrent is a problem at all. however, barrel diffusion costs too little and honet strike is just too good, compared to their rifle counterpart

but, do u really think primary mods are "worse"? let's talk about crit mods, shall we? honestly i dont think those mods need too much change, because u can always balance weapons instead.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Eric1738

[Hyunsai]

OP's argument is flawed as no Secondary weapons right now outshine the best Primary weapons of this game.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Hyunsai

[CY13ERPUNK]

um... no

-1 OP , -9999 thread

sidearms have different roles/ammo econ/etc than primaries, and well a lot of this is still a work in progress, it was intentional that 2ndary mods be more powerful than primary mods, otherwise the 2ndaries would be useless in comparison and you'd be severely gimped during data carry missions

anyways, they should NOT be equal, they should be different

regardless, base dmg increase mods like serration and hornet strike should all be removed from the game anyways and let weapons gain incremental dmg boosts as they rank from 1-30, thus allowing for more diverse builds

and IMHO multishot should be removed from the game, unless changed into some kind of corrupted mod with a downside

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

You don't FIX something by putting something else together with it. (Example, you don't put two weak batteries together to make a strong battery, you just use one strong battery, it's less work, makes more sense, and fits in to what it needs to easily)

 

Pistols ALSO have a corrupted mod, Magnum Force. 

 

Rifle's multishot is underpowered and Shotgun's % damage is underpowered.

Very fair points indeed.