How To Make The Stalker Fight A Better Fight

[lautalocos]

PS: wall-O-text incoming

 

right now, there are reports that the stalker is easy because of his health pool (i havent fighted him in u12, so i can´t confirm this) but before u12, he was extremely hard.

 

the stalker should be a difficult fight, but it shouldn´t be unfair. if he slash dashes you, you are dead, and it´s pretty bothering considering that he doesnt telegraph his attack. this leads to player frustration. i personally like his dispell skill, and how he isnt affected by our powers, because he is a tenno hunter, he knows how to kill his prey. he also has absorb, which is kind of unfair for players that never played with a nyx. they would probably shoot the sphere, thinking that they could break it or something like that, and if you know that you shouldnt shoot him, then it´s boring to just way until he finishes. he also has pull and teleport, which is fine, because if not running from him would be too easy. also, as i said, it seems his health pool is low now, or he doesnt scale the same way as he did, and people are killing him before he finishes standing up. thats a problem.

 

so, what can be done to make the fight againt him a difficult fight, but fair and fun at the same time?

 

-i imagine melee 2.0 will do something to his melee attacks

-he should have the abilty to block bullets, to lower the damage we do when he tries to get close to use to melee or slash dash us.

-he should telegraph his slash dash, his most used skill, and the one that can kill you easily. he would get in position, his weapon or him could glow (or at least some sound to warn you) and he would slash dash. roll too soon and he just changes position, too late and he hits you. one should dodge when he is already dashing. medium starting lag and high starting lag, so players who dodge have a chance to counter attack

-for the reasons above, when he attacks a group with 2 or more players, he gets a big buff on health.

 

work in progress. gotta go now so i will continue this later.

[noveltyhero]

I think his abilities should be unique. So 1 idea as example for his slash dash, he throws a sphere* forward making a trail then slash dashes along it.

 

EDIT: meant sphere not spear

Edited February 9, 2014 by noveltyhero

[Shanicus]

Well, he does telegraph Slash Dash... barely. He'll raise his sword across his shoulder and get an aura with that initial 'Woosh' sound about .5 seconds before he starts moving, which is enough time for someone already running to avoid it (so long as they're not in a straight line from it) or for someone with fast reflexes to dodge it (hell, you can kill him before he slashes too, if you're fast enough). It wouldn't be too bad if it was a little more obvious though, just for newer players who didn't start with an Excal/people who didn't watch their Excal's animations.

I like the bullet blocking idea, seems like it could make it interesting and force Tenno into close quarters with him due to him blocking long-range attacks. Could probably make it so he moves slower/can't teleport while blocking, so it's possible to keep him locked down briefly with high-firing weaponry just to buy yourself/a teammate some time against him. It'd only work at long ranges though, 'cause if he starts blocking attacks in melee range (where he's incredibly lethal) that'd just make the fight frustrating, since the only way to damage him would be to melee him and his Hate is too fast and powerful for that to be a smart idea.

[lautalocos]

Well, he does telegraph Slash Dash... barely. He'll raise his sword across his shoulder and get an aura with that initial 'Woosh' sound about .5 seconds before he starts moving, which is enough time for someone already running to avoid it (so long as they're not in a straight line from it) or for someone with fast reflexes to dodge it (hell, you can kill him before he slashes too, if you're fast enough). It wouldn't be too bad if it was a little more obvious though, just for newer players who didn't start with an Excal/people who didn't watch their Excal's animations.

I like the bullet blocking idea, seems like it could make it interesting and force Tenno into close quarters with him due to him blocking long-range attacks. Could probably make it so he moves slower/can't teleport while blocking, so it's possible to keep him locked down briefly with high-firing weaponry just to buy yourself/a teammate some time against him. It'd only work at long ranges though, 'cause if he starts blocking attacks in melee range (where he's incredibly lethal) that'd just make the fight frustrating, since the only way to damage him would be to melee him and his Hate is too fast and powerful for that to be a smart idea.

well, yes, you could kill him before he slash dashes. but that means he is very weak. but then, he has this very fast attack that can kill you in one hit.

 

as an example, dark souls.

some attacks are pretty fast, or powerfull, but even the fastest attack is telegraphed with enough time for you to dodge it. and even if you couldnt, because it is a fast attack, it won´t kill you in one hit

[Taranis49]

Can't agree on keeping Dispel, as-is, it just dumbs the game down to a bog-standard shooter. If you need to break the rules of your own game for an enemy, odds are it's a badly designed enemy - hell, Tenno can't even ignore the powers of one another, or even their own powers for that matter (e.g. a Frost can't shoot through his own globe if he's outside of it).

 

Rather, the AI (and not just for Stalker, but across the board) should be improved so they respond intelligently to powers. There's a reason why, for example, of all the methods the Army teaches guys to deal with threats, none of them involved us just going "lol nope" and magically nullifying them. :-P

Edited February 9, 2014 by Taranis49

[lautalocos]

Can't agree on keeping Dispel, as-is, it just dumbs the game down to a bog-standard shooter. If you need to break the rules of your own game for an enemy, odds are it's a badly designed enemy - hell, Tenno can't even ignore the powers of one another, or even their own powers for that matter (e.g. a Frost can't shoot through his own globe if he's outside of it).

 

Rather, the AI (and not just for Stalker, but across the board) should be improved so they respond intelligently to powers. There's a reason why, for example, of all the methods the Army teaches guys to deal with threats, none of them involved us just going "lol nope" and magically nullifying them. :-P

but whay happens with abilities like rhino stomp, bastille, or things like that?

 

it makes sense that the stalker is invulnerable against something, because thats how games work.

as an example, in RPGs, some creatures/races/classes/whatevers are resistant or inmune against elements (damage 2.0) or control spells, like slowdowns, paralysis, mind control, sleep or things like that. in the case of warframe, the control skills are those i mentioned early, and some others.

enemies like that make you thiink of new strategies, instead of using one ability again and again.

[Taranis49]

but whay happens with abilities like rhino stomp, bastille, or things like that?

 

it makes sense that the stalker is invulnerable against something, because thats how games work.

as an example, in RPGs, some creatures/races/classes/whatevers are resistant or inmune against elements (damage 2.0) or control spells, like slowdowns, paralysis, mind control, sleep or things like that. in the case of warframe, the control skills are those i mentioned early, and some others.

enemies like that make you thiink of new strategies, instead of using one ability again and again.

 

Maybe he should move away from them? Hell, he already has teleport to assist with that: to reiterate the point, maybe he should intelligently respond to powers, if you have to break the rules of your own game for an enemy, it's generally a badly designed enemy.

 

Nullifying abilities across the board reduces the number of new strategies, since a frame's unique gameplay ultimately comes down to its abilities. Which is incidentally, one of the things that makes the game itself unique, otherwise it's just generic shooter #648.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Taranis49

[lautalocos]

Maybe he should move away from them? Hell, he already has teleport to assist with that: to reiterate the point, maybe he should intelligently respond to powers, if you have to break the rules of your own game for an enemy, it's generally a badly designed enemy.

 

Nullifying abilities across the board reduces the number of new strategies, since a frame's unique gameplay ultimately comes down to its abilities. Which is incidentally, one of the things that makes the game itself unique, otherwise it's just generic shooter #648.

if he moved away from them, or teleported away, it would be exactly the same as if he was inmune. a vauban could just fill a room with bastiles, a rhino could just use stomp again. if he is not inmune to those abilities, he becomes a normal mob. as i said before, it´s not breaking the rules, he is just a special mob.

 

there are tons of games where an enemy will just be inmune to some kind of attack. in games i never expect the same strategy to work against everything.

also, i don´t think that the powers are what makes the game unique. i think that the movement makes the game unique, and coincidentially, the stalker forces you to use that movement, or die.

[Taranis49]

if he moved away from them, or teleported away, it would be exactly the same as if he was inmune. a vauban could just fill a room with bastiles, a rhino could just use stomp again. if he is not inmune to those abilities, he becomes a normal mob. as i said before, it´s not breaking the rules, he is just a special mob.

 

there are tons of games where an enemy will just be inmune to some kind of attack. in games i never expect the same strategy to work against everything.

also, i don´t think that the powers are what makes the game unique. i think that the movement makes the game unique, and coincidentially, the stalker forces you to use that movement, or die.

 

Hardly; to return to a prior example: you can survive enemy fire and close-range grenade explosions via the use of a fighting position and a grenade sump or just throwing the grenade back or running away from it - by your logic, there'd be no difference to just walking into gunfire and grenade explosions, afterall, it'd be "the exact same" as if you were immune, right? ;-)

 

And a Vauban's capable of using three Bastilles, period without the use of rare or corrupted mods. And if he can use more than that? So what, Area Denial's a valid strategy that not every Frame can make use of (hence, it increases the number of strategies, which you claim to want); Vauban's supposed to be "tactical" afterall - it says as much in his description, lol.

 

And you keep appealing to "other games" without explaining a.) why Warframe should copycat them b.) why it's a good idea. Ironically enough, you don't actually need to move that much against Stalker, and it's even detrimental on solo since you can't effectively engage while parkouring around the map.

 

Even if it were the case, it comes across as hypocritical when you claim you want new strategies, when you just admit one post later that you want people to "move or die" that's one "strategy" (and it's an old one), so where's the others, where's the new ones, hmmm? If only the different frames had some kind of abilities that allowed them unique roles and options on the battlefield...

Edited February 9, 2014 by Taranis49

[lautalocos]

Hardly; to return to a prior example: you can survive enemy fire and close-range grenade explosions via the use of a fighting position and a grenade sump or just throwing the grenade back or running away from it - by your logic, there'd be no difference to just walking into gunfire and grenade explosions, afterall, it'd be "the exact same" as if you were immune, right? ;-)

 

And a Vauban's capable of using three Bastilles, period without the use of rare or corrupted mods. And if he can use more than that? So what, Area Denial's a valid strategy that not every Frame can make use of (hence, it increases the number of strategies, which you claim to want); Vauban's supposed to be "tactical" afterall - it says as much in his description, lol.

 

And you keep appealing to "other games" without explaining a.) why Warframe should copycat them b.) why it's a good idea. Ironically enough, you don't actually need to move that much against Stalker, and it's even detrimental on solo since you can't effectively engage while parkouring around the map.

 

Even if it were the case, it comes across as hypocritical when you claim you want new strategies, when you just admit one post later that you want people to "move or die" that's one "strategy" (and it's an old one), so where's the others, where's the new ones, hmmm? If only the different frames had some kind of abilities that allowed them unique roles and options on the battlefield...

my example was on the shoes of the AI. if the AI would always evade the attacks, then just make it inmune. also, your example about area denial only works with bastile. what about rhino stomp, m prime, that zephyr fourth skill and all those other skill? those are impossible to evade for the stalker. in that case, if he teleported outside of the area of effect every time you use the ability, then it would be the exact same thing aas if he where inmune.

 

and if he is not inmune, and doesnt have the ability to dispell attacks, then a frost with snow globe and vauban with bastile would make an area of total inmunity. he cant get in, and he can´t shoot from afar.

 

im not saying copycat other games, im saying how another thousand other games work, where enemies have weaknesses and inmunities.

this is for making the game have a change of phase, instead of always doing the same series of attacks over and over again. some enmeis will need certain types of attack, other need something different. currently in warframe, crowd control is good against everything. the only enemy that isnt is the stalker. with the reworks to his skills that im proposing, one for the first time would actually need to do something different (in this case, dodge, which is never used. it is and old one, but it´s never, ever used, and thats funny becasue ninjas should use that the most) at least againt one enemy.

 

finally, most warframes in late game are used because of their crowd control abilities, and for buffs to damage. m prime, rhino stomp, invisibility, bastile, vortex, radial disarm, sonar, etc.

 

these are not "unique roles" or "options" as you claim, these are just the same thing with other names and sizes. buffs, and crowd control.

[Leuca]

Can't agree on keeping Dispel, as-is, it just dumbs the game down to a bog-standard shooter. If you need to break the rules of your own game for an enemy, odds are it's a badly designed enemy - hell, Tenno can't even ignore the powers of one another, or even their own powers for that matter (e.g. a Frost can't shoot through his own globe if he's outside of it).

 

Rather, the AI (and not just for Stalker, but across the board) should be improved so they respond intelligently to powers. There's a reason why, for example, of all the methods the Army teaches guys to deal with threats, none of them involved us just going "lol nope" and magically nullifying them. :-P

This, this, so much this. Especially the bold part. I want the Stalker to be interesting, not a 5 year-old who runs around going, "Nuh-uh, your powers don't affect me!" until the teacher i.e. Brakk comes along and puts him in his place. I don't like having to constantly have a god-modded weapon+Redirection equipped just because of borderline child AI.