Melee 2.0 And Mod Slot Availability

[Transmorphic_Wyvern]

I love the fact that DE is making Melee 2.0 on-par with the hype it has by delaying it's release to overhaul it. In the bonus stream after Devstream 23, there were multiple mentions of using mods to change the weapon behavior. I love that and implore them to keep going on that idea, yet the question comes to mind:

 

Will we have enough slots to fully utilize all of this?

 

As it stands, Melee has the least mods for it- staples with only a few circumstantial ones. I wish to make more use out of Melee 2.0 but, with as many of them being staples as they are, how am I going to fit in ones that change weapon behavior? Is there going to be a third mod row made specifically and only for this? Will they use mod points? Are we stuck using the default amount of 8 slots and giving the weapon an aura-esque slot for the behavior?

 

What are your guys' thoughts? Any suggestions/implications/thoughts/theories?

 

 

Edit: Apparently I didn't explain myself well enough.

 

I was talking mostly about the mods that affect weapon behavior, not damage.

 

As in how you use the weapon, not how much dps one can get out of it.

 

I'm talking about how you use them, not what they do

Edited February 25, 2014 by Transmorphic_Wyvern

[VKhaun]

No. We absolutely won't. That's always kind of been the point of the mod system. You need to pick and choose what makes sense and decide where benefits end. We haven't been doing that because we haven't had that many mods and among the mods we do have there are clear winners.

 

People just go to DPS frame DOT com and max out the DPS number. No one stops to think about at what point they're overkilling a target or how much damage they lose hitting only one at a time. I've never seen a build discussion thread that didn't turn into a DPS thread. Once we have more mods than we can handle and there aren't such clear winners, people will have something to think about finally. I welcome that.

Edited February 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[tmtke]

A brave move would be that if they removed the straight damage mods on melee weapons and change their levelling system to upgrade their damage to a limit (as frames do increase their base stats). Then the necessary mod slots are free and weapons can be personalized :) But I think I'm just daydreaming :)

[Wallace24]

No. We absolutely won't. That's always kind of been the point of the mod system. You need to pick and choose what makes sense and decide where benefits end. We haven't been doing that because we haven't had that many mods and among the mods we do have there are clear winners.

 

People just go to DPS frame DOT com and max out the DPS number. No one stops to think about at what point they're overkilling a target or how much damage they lose hitting only one at a time. I've never seen a build discussion thread that didn't turn into a DPS thread. Once we have more mods than we can handle and there aren't such clear winners, people will have something to think about finally. I welcome that.

absolutely this ^

 

but we will be limited to 8 slots, just like with other weapons. fortunately, there really aren't too many useful melee mods out there right now, and the only required ones for standard builds are pressure point, spoiled strike, and fury (reach for longer weapons). charged builds have some more mods they can use thanks to the nightmare mods: killing blow, reflex coil, focus energy, rending strike, and corrupt charge (again, reach to taste, and some benefit from fury as well). other than those, your options are limited. elemental and physical damage mods, and that's about it. melee channel is fun, but useless when +200 damage doesn't really cut it (literally)

 

melee 2.0 will make us customize our weapons to how we want to play them. better jump attacks, charge attacks, maybe we'll see some parry mods for the weapon itself rather than the frame. I'm really hoping we'll have some mods to increase jump attack radius, or give the jump attack specifically some damage or status boosts. I also don't think the behavior will be an aura-type mod. that would be interesting, I suppose, if each weapon you could give it this aura mod and it essentially tells you how the weapon will be used (for example, one aura mod would give you multiple stat increases/decreases which drive the weapon to one or two particular attacks over the other. like one that gave large bonuses to slide and wall attacks, but decreased jump and charge attacks to the point where they're largely unusable)

[DMan]

This isn't even a case of melee 2.0

Even now we don't have enough mod slots. Power always wins over utility do to the lack of slots.

[Arceus255]

A brave move would be that if they removed the straight damage mods on melee weapons and change their levelling system to upgrade their damage to a limit (as frames do increase their base stats). Then the necessary mod slots are free and weapons can be personalized :) But I think I'm just daydreaming :)

It was said previously that while melee weapons level up there will be different types of attacks available.

[Acegikmo]

they could add an aura-type slot next to the original 8 mod slots just for the mod that changes the behavior of the weapon.

[konfetarius]

Once we have more mods than we can handle and there aren't such clear winners, people will have something to think about finally. I welcome that.

You are adorable.

The entirety of the melee mod system is already "optimize normal attacks" or "optimize charge attacks." Unless DE takes to the current array of melee mods with an axe, the entirety of melee 2.0 will degenerate into "optimize the best mod-unlocked special move."

[OnnaJReverT]

You are adorable. The entirety of the melee mod system is already "optimize normal attacks" or "optimize charge attacks." Unless DE takes to the current array of melee mods with an axe, the entirety of melee 2.0 will degenerate into "optimize the best mod-unlocked special move."

which is exactly what they apparently try to do with melee 2.0: make more moves available that are equally powerful with the right mods

[konfetarius]

There are two ways to do that.

One would be to merge charge/melee damage mods and compress melee DPS mods, so equipping the special move mods doesn't mean sacrificing excessive power from everything else the melee weapon does. That is just a fancier way of saying "add more mod slots or do the equivalent of that some other way."

The other way, which is what I fear DE will do, is to literally just dump the new mods and not change anything else about existing ones. So, on top of being forced to choose between not terrible melee swings and not terrible charge swings, the choice to equip a special move mod is a decision to gimp all forms of attack that aren't that special move.

The basic principle at work here - you can spend 8 mods to do one thing well, or you divide the 8 mods into doing two things badly. Without fixing, or at least mitigating this basic problem melee has ATM, just adding new mods for new moves is going to result in failure of Melee 2.0.

Edited February 24, 2014 by konfetarius

[yuio678]

A brave move would be that if they removed the straight damage mods on melee weapons and change their levelling system to upgrade their damage to a limit (as frames do increase their base stats). Then the necessary mod slots are free and weapons can be personalized :) But I think I'm just daydreaming :)

Actually even if DE did that, it would not have such a large effect because look at this. Pressure Point is currently only a max rank 5 mod that's hella easy to max lvl with not many mods/fusion cores. Whereas for stuff like Hornet Strike or Serration, they are rank 10 mods requiring tonnes of cores and credits (barring legendary cores). I have heard the argument that removing straight damage mods such as the rank 10 ones would unfairly remove all the time and commitment players spent on them. In contrast, removing Pressure Point in favor for these "technique specific" melee damage mods wouldn't be a deal breaker. 

But this would only be fair if these supposed new melee mods Steve mentioned in the DevStream when max level dealed at least, if not more than the +120% melee damage a max level Pressure Point currently gives to your melee weapons.

[VKhaun]

You are adorable.

I think you're cute too. ~.^

 

 

The entirety of the melee mod system is already "optimize normal attacks" or "optimize charge attacks." Unless DE takes to the current array of melee mods with an axe, the entirety of melee 2.0 will degenerate into "optimize the best mod-unlocked special move."

That's not the entirety of the melee mod system, that's the entirety of how we use it because melee weapons are severely underpowered and mods are focused. Melee 2.0 is going to come with a variety of buffs and new multiple effect mods, and we have no idea what the relationship between regular, special and heavy attacks will be much less their relationship with parries and special condition finishers on stunned enemies. 

 

Saying melee 2.0 will make everyone optimize only one special move is pure pessimism without foundation in logic and even if that is what we end up with, it'd still be a giant leap forward from one build and playstyle per weapon.

Edited February 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[konfetarius]

Saying melee 2.0 will make everyone optimize only one special move is pure pessimism without foundation in logic

Well, there is a reason I say "if DE doesn't take an axe to the current system" pre-pessimism rant. The logic is that the CURRENT system is completely incompatible with the proposed mod as abilities system and will result in the described situation.

I am leaning towards the pessimism because DE largely has shown that they rely on half-measures. Damage 2.0 with minimal rebalance of weapon numbers, etc.

[Transmorphic_Wyvern]

Apparently I didn't explain myself well enough...

 

Edit: Updated the OP

Edited February 25, 2014 by Transmorphic_Wyvern