[Suggestion/idea] Ammo Rework Or "ammo 2.0"

[nightrunner_ks]

Right now. Ammunition is a mess. Bows fire the same ammo as Sniper Rifles, Grenade Launchers fire the same rounds as Assault Rifles.

 

My ammo rework would split Ammo into eight main categories:

 

Explosives/Special

 

This ammo category would be for the Penta, Ogris and any other weapon who's ammunition doesn't fit with the other categories, like the Stug. Ammo drops from enemies would be rare for standard grunts, and higher for the mini-bosses/elites.

 

Projectiles

 

Bows, Bolt guns, Kunai and anything related to them would use this special ammo type. The drops would be rare across the board, but they would have the special property of being recoverable. For example, the destruction rate of the ammo would be 10-25%, so 75-90% of the arrows or bolts shot out of the gun would be recoverable from the corpse of the dead enemy.

 

Fuel

 

Obviously, this would be for Infested beam guns and the Ignis. Like Explosives, it would be uncommon to rare as a standard drop, but would drop more from Grineer and the Infested. 

 

Heat Sink

 

We know from basic thermodynamic and physics principles that Corpus guns have to generate heat, since they don't fire actual bullets. So like in ME2 and ME3, a swappable heat sink would be used in the exact same way as a traditional magazine of bullets. Drop rates would be high for Corpus, but lower for the other factions.

 

Heavy Caliber Rounds

 

As the name suggests, these would be for Snipers and LMGs like the Gorgon, maybe even heavy pistols like the Lex. Uncommon drop rates across the board. 

 

Medium Caliber Munitions

 

Again, for certain pistols and all Assault Rifles. Common drop rates from Grineer, slightly lower for the other factions. 

 

Low Caliber Mags

 

Finally, for small pistols and SMG style guns like the Grakata. Decent drop rates all across the faction.

 

Thanks for reading anyway. I think my system would make ammo conservation more of a gameplay factor and combined with a decent melee system, make gunplay a little more exciting. 

 

Shotgun Shells

 

Since Shotguns are kinda useless and overlooked, they get their own category. The Brakk and Bronco would also be included in this category. Medium drop rates.

 

In regards to Ammo Capacity

 

I think Ammo capacity of weapons should be reworked on a per weapon ie. each weapon should have its own ammo capacity. For example, the bigger Kunai knives should get 30 spare, but the smaller Hikou should get 60 spare. 

Edited February 26, 2014 by nightrunner_ks

[thedan001]

the dual pistol ammos (twin vipers) really need to have their ammo efficiency reworked when you have the penta/ogris with 540 ammo

 

I mean...

 

really?

 

(Soma is fine, great dps at the cost of medium-low ammo efficiency)

Edited February 25, 2014 by thedan001

[nightrunner_ks]

the dual pistol ammos (twin vipers) really need to have their ammo efficiency reworked when you have the penta/ogris with 540 ammo

 

I mean...

 

really?

 

(Soma is fine, great dps at the cost of medium-low ammo efficiency)

 

Well they would use the Low Caliber rounds which would be a common drop for all factions.

[JohnProdman]

the dual pistol ammos (twin vipers) really need to have their ammo efficiency reworked when you have the penta/ogris with 540 ammo

 

I mean...

 

really?

 

(Soma is fine, great dps at the cost of medium-low ammo efficiency)

The Twin Wraith Vipers last I checked had the third or fourth best dps in the entire game, this is dealt with by making them inefficient with ammo, and righly so.

 

Also, having all those ammo types in the current drop system is broken and will do nothing but contribute to lag in defenses/survivals. DE will fix things in an appropriate way.

[Natesky9]

I bump this, but I doubt that they'll use this exact format.

I approve of the fact that the Grakata has a different max ammo pool, but I'm disappointed that Corpus energy weapons don't also have more efficient ammo reserves. I see where you're coming from with energy weapons from Mass Effect 2/3, but that doesn't fit well with Corpus munitions.

If I may put my 2 cents in:
 

"Once overrun by the Infestation, The Corpus are now exploiting Jupiter for its vast deposits of rare gasses."

Now, most of the corpus weapons say that they are laser weapons, but the projectile says that they are plasma instead. Which would make sense, as the corpus own an entire planet of gas. And Gas can be compressed into munitions that are far more efficient than firing bullets without any waste.

I suggest that their ammo reflect their efficiency.

I also suggest that regular corpus units should rather use the Tetra as entry-level assault rifles, as the accuracy of the Dera conflicts with their ability to shoot straight.

 

 

And one minor change that I've really wanted to see done ever since the Tetra came out:
Change the Tetra's ammo to be similar to shotgun ammo, roughly 72 ammo max.

Each magazine would use 4 ammo, but each cartridge would hold 15 shots.

Reloading would round down, meaning that any "tapped" cartridges would be discarded, and would refill the gun, at a surprisingly fast reload speed.

 

This would make the Tetra an effective rifle, having a maximum of about 1,000 shots total, compared to only 600, and would add a more uniqui reloading system to match the snazzy new reload animation.

 

But back to OP, we need Ammo 2.0

[KittyDarkling]

    This is a... "tricky" topic..

 

Having 8 different ammo pools deludes the drop rates twice as much as they currently are

 

LMG using uncommon ammo when they dry up with common?

 

Stug using rare ammo?

 

Fuel being uncommon's another example of choking out the ammo of bullet hoses. Thee ignis already needs mutation mods or supplementary ammo drops to keep it's fill

 

    To choke these guns ammo intake is to simply nerf them. you'd be nerfing the ignis, beam weapons, LMGs, and all for lore. To be clear I love lore, and I love immersion. However concessions have to be made to support game play.

 

    Aside from that, isolating specific ammo type to a faction (again lore friendly and admirable) means the weapon's worthless elsewhere. There's a reason ammo is as wonky as it is right now. It's like this because it "works" is it perfect? hell no, but it does work with the current game.

 

    Many people sight the Ogeris as needing less ammo, but last I checked. people rarely use the Ogeris, from what I've seen it's Soma and whatever the new weapon on the block is... so really as it is right now ammo is "ok" or "acceptable" it'll likely need it's own update to accommodate the amount of re-balancing that would be needed to make it work right. and I'm not even sure DE would put that much time and effort into revamping a fairly "invisible" system.

 

 

        Maybe with a whole lot of tweaking this idea could work but not as it is. not yet.

Edited February 25, 2014 by KittyDarkling

[nightrunner_ks]

This is a... "tricky" topic..

 

Having 8 different ammo pools deludes the drop rates twice as much as they currently are

 

LMG using uncommon ammo when they dry up with common?

 

Stug using rare ammo?

 

Fuel being uncommon's another example of choking out the ammo of bullet hoses. Thee ignis already needs mutation mods or supplementary ammo drops to keep it's fill

 

    To choke these guns ammo intake is to simply nerf them. you'd be nerfing the ignis, beam weapons, LMGs, and all for lore. To be clear I love lore, and I love immersion. However concessions have to be made to support game play.

 

    Aside from that, isolating specific ammo type to a faction (again lore friendly and admirable) means the weapon's worthless elsewhere. There's a reason ammo is as wonky as it is right now. It's like this because it "works" is it perfect? hell no, but it does work with the current game.

 

    Many people sight the Ogeris as needing less ammo, but last I checked. people rarely use the Ogeris, from what I've seen it's Soma and whatever the new weapon on the block is... so really as it is right now ammo is "ok" or "acceptable" it'll likely need it's own update to accommodate the amount of re-balancing that would be needed to make it work right. and I'm not even sure DE would put that much time and effort into revamping a fairly "invisible" system.

 

 

        Maybe with a whole lot of tweaking this idea could work but not as it is. not yet.

I think you're underestimating the value of a lore friendly ammo system in improving the overall polish of a game.

it is NOT okay for a bow to shoot bullet ammo. it is not okay for a handheld shotgun to shoot pistol ammo.

right now, Beam weapons are incredibly powerful. reducing ammo would bring balance as sustained DPS is reduced.

and with a decent melee system, it would be okay to have lower ammo capacities and drops. remember that you can carry two guns and a sword.

[(PSN)atpbx]

So instead of doing something really easy, like just reducing the amount of ammo you can carry for a powerful weapon, you want to do something really complicated and game breaking by having 8 different ammo types scattered across the solar system rendering half the weapons worthless for half the content and the other half worthless for all the content.

[Amistyrja]

Unnecessary complication imo. I'm not saying that ammo efficiency makes sense as it currently does in Warframe, but I want to be able to take any weapon I like into battle against any faction without having to worry about finding less ammo.

[neoragdoll]

Even with the current ammo system, a bigger problem exists.

 

You can notice in the game that when you have your primary weapon out, pistol ammo drop rate would be higher. The same applies for primary ammo when you have your secondary weapon out. The idea is that you would alternate between your primary and secondary to sustain longer. However, this is only the case if the damage output between two weapons is not too far apart and/or both weapons have decent ammo efficiency. In reality, when you want to rank up something, you would go online to an MDef and equip a good weapon with decent ammo efficiency in the other slot, in order to kill as much and as fast as possible. The affinity shared would be a lot higher and racks up faster than the affinity gained by using only the low rank weapon. As long as you kill a lot of enemies your preferred ammo type would drop enough to sustain you through the mission. So much for altering weapons.

 

Now back to your suggestion of dividing the ammo drop into 8 different types. I think this would make some weapons lose much if not all of their viability. It might even make Ammo Conversion mods become one of the "must-have" mod, which further reduce the "freedom" in customization. And what would players most likely be using if they are not using their guns? Their powers. No matter how good a melee system can be, you still have to get up close and personal to use melee weapons. Less ammo supply for your weapons might shift the focus more towards power spamming and as a result, more dull and boring gameplay.

Edited February 25, 2014 by neoragdoll

[Natesky9]

While the Soma is so efficient, powerful, and deadly, it's almost considered broken. Guns like the Supra, Dera, and hell, even the Tetra can sustain decent damage, but due to the current ammo system, you can't do anything without a fully maxed out ammo mutation. And even then, EVEN THEN, you still run into ammo issues. Where, on the other hand, you have Semi-auto rifles, like Latron that doesn't use much ammo, but does considerable DPS.

 

Everyone here is worrying about the smaller things, where the main issue doesn't lie in the type of ammo, but rather the Kind of ammo. This is a game about Space Pirate Ninja Wizard Mercenaries. Logic doesn't exactly apply. That being said, there does need to be balance in the munitions system. And that doesn't begin with Nerfing everything to the ground, but rather addressing the outlying Issues.

 

 

 

 

All projectile weapons have poor ammo efficiency

This is true of almost all projectile rifles/pistols/smg's. You can only do massive damage if it hits, and it's alot harder to shoot someone with a slow projectile unless you're in close range. Which would make it better as a shotgun, and not a rifle.

Hitscan weapons not only have better efficiency here because of the accuracy, but because you don't overshoot the target after it's dead. It's not going to be any more dead, you're just going to have less ammo. So machine gun rifles with projectile time suffer from poor ammo efficiency at medium to long range.

 

X runs out of ammo too quickly

This can be addressed several ways, from properly modding your weapon, picking up ammo at an equivalent rate that you're expending it, or usually packing more damage into every shot. Or actually hitting things, which may be harder with projectile weapons. If you're using an entire clip of 60 bullets just to kill 1 enemy, you're quickly going to run into ammo issues, and you're going to have a difficult time, if that weapon is your primary source of damage.

 

But X and X have crazy amounts of ammo, you couldn't run out if you tried!

Yes, Launchers in this game tend to have a massive ammo pool. That's just how it is. The Ogris is the the main culprit of this, as having the ability to spam 500 massively damaging rockets is somewhat game breaking. However, just lowering the maximum ammo pool isn't going to do anything at all. As you know, ammo drops replenish a set amount of ammo, regardless of weapon. So capping the ammo for the Penta at 24 isn't going to do anything, when a rifle ammo drop refills 20 of that. Yeah, it might effectively lower the immediate spam-ability  of heavy launchers, but it's just going to be a minor handicap.

 

How can I carry X massive clips on an OP rifle, but I can't carry more than 4 batteries?

Ammo types in Warframe weren't immensely thought out, rather just put on the backburner while crazy amounts of ammo hid away the fact that some were just better than others. All numbers aside, cartridge rounds both take up more space, and weigh more than compressed gas/batteries for high-tech energy weapons. And this has somewhat worked, with each class of weapon having a designated ammo drop. Shotguns has rarer ammo than Rifles, but more common than snipers, while pistol ammo was everywhere. It doesn't even matter what type of enemy you killed, they all have a chance to drop any type of ammo. It's like an intergalactic generic brand of ammo that seems to fit into every type of weapon equally.

 

Why doesn't DE fix what's broken?

While attempts can be made to patch this issue, it would make very many people upset about the outcome. Suggestions to the current system are welcome, but with a grain of salt, and a gallon of common sense. Besides, there have been a few changes to some of the weapons, albeit minor ones. The Grakata has a higher max ammo, which is nice, considering that you can burn through an entire clip if you're not careful. And the Miter had it's ammo dropped down to sniper ammo. Which was a less obvious choice, as it isn't a heavy AoE weapon. But the munitions system is due for a minor rework, and it's not something that's going to happen overnight.

 

What do you suggest then?

Well, based upon my take on ammo, I can suggest several things. But above all, I would like to propose a new game type that relies heavily on not just the damage of the gun, but the choices that go into it. Bringing Energy weapons to a Grineer map is wise, as most Corpus weapons are designed against heavily armored targets. As is the opposite true. But by changing from generic ammo to weapon-specific ammo, no longer do  Grakata bulbs fit into your Plasma weapons, and you get a whole new game.

          What's the point of that then?
Well, there are a few takes on this that you could do. You could make the mission a regular mission, with the exception of ammo no longer fitting like Lego pieces in your weapons. This would require the player to make better choices with ammo efficiency. Either bring the weapons that are found there and refill off of defeated enemies' ammo; or bring a super-effective weapon, but be forced to use it sparingly.

Not only will this add more interesting gameplay, but it will also highlight certain weapon's major ammo problems. If it consistently is a major problem, then changes could be made.

         What else could be done?

Well, for the basic fact that some bullets are bigger than others, it would only make sense to weight different weapons' ammo to reflect the cost accordingly. For example, the Grinlock, Latron, and other Semi-auto rifles would require much more than a bit of gas and energy for a plasma bolt. Giving each weapon their own class of ammo would be too complicated and redundant for normal gameplay. Rather, simply decrease or Increase the ammo picked up from ammo drops depending on the weapon. This will prevent the ammo tables from being diluted past the 4 main types, and it will also balance the entire ammo system after some initial tweaking.

For example, an ammo pickup would only yield 1 Ogris rocket vs. 25 Supra bolts.

5 Penta grenades vs half a Banana

10 lex rounds vs. 30 Viper shells

Compared to the system now, where each would receive the same amount regardless.

 

There have been many long-time players complaining about this topic, and I'd love to see something done about it, if nothing else just as a test to see if it can be improved.

So tell me if you guys agree with me, and bump if you want to see some change!

[Mephane]

Diluting the ammo pool will mostly lead to more weapons requiring ammo mutations to become viable.

[nightrunner_ks]

Diluting the ammo pool will mostly lead to more weapons requiring ammo mutations to become viable.

 

So your already OP guns will become less OP.

 

Boohoo, such a disaster.

 

None of you are seeing the bigger picture here. Who seriously gives a rats behind about guns becoming less effective due to a lack of ammo drops? The game is easy as it is. The current ammo system is an absolute joke. 

 

Its not about diluting ammo drops. Its about giving the game polish and balancing out $&*&*#(%& weapons like the Penta. Just because your favourite gun will run out of ammo more doesn't mean that the system shouldn't be reworked to be logical AND lore friendly. 

 

FALLOUT 3 AND NEW VEGAS CAN GET AWAY WITH MORE THAN 10 AMMO TYPES AND STILL BE FUN, WARFRAME CAN BE THE SAME. 

Edited February 26, 2014 by nightrunner_ks

[Amistyrja]

FALLOUT 3 AND NEW VEGAS CAN GET AWAY WITH MORE THAN 10 AMMO TYPES AND STILL BE FUN, WARFRAME CAN BE THE SAME. 

Ammunition can be stocked in bulk, crafted, broken down and reassembled into the type you want in Fallout. What we have in Warframe are either Mutations-which take up a valuable mod slot, or Ammo Restores which cost considerable Ferrite(not everyone farms Appollodorus) and the bulk blueprints which use Nano Spores instead cost a hefty 200+k, which are quite inefficient if they have to be used for every odd Exterminate etc. We can't stroll into a mission with 60 extra magazines for our Twin Vipers.

 

 

Ammo stocks and ammo pickups for each individual weapon needs to be looked at in general. It's quite ridiculous how my Penta or your Ogris never run out of explosives, while arrows are like finding that grape Skittle in the packet and weapons like Afuris clear only half a room with their entire ammunition reserves. We don't need new ammo types(except for Special- weapons like Ogris, Penta etc) and we don't need ammo drop odds to be separated by faction. Like Natesky9 said, tweaking the ammo gain rates from pickups of each weapon is a better way to fix this without needlessly complicating the system, as long as careful attention is paid when balancing the rates so that Ammo Mutation is still relevant.