If You're Gonna Nerf Frost, Might As Well Nerf Rhino (Or, An Epiphany On The State Of Warframe).

[SolidSp33d]

8bit, I've seen you post a lot in this Forums, and almost all of them are you complaining, and it's really starting to get annoying. You have very little game experience and you're completely based off of everyone else's experience. Honestly, Frost wasn't even nerfed he was buffed, if you ever take the time to play with him you'll see that. I use Loki because I like his speed and I like his hammer head shark face, nothing else.

 

complain =/= concerns and constructive feedback

 

I find it hard to believe you read his entire post if you think he is whining.

[SolidSp33d]

It has been months since the change, and I'm still mad that ember lost overheat

 

I'm an avid Ember player,  it hurt at first but it really was for the best. Accelerant suits her far more and the mechanic is really good in general.

What she needs is to not be so FREAKING SLOW

Edited March 9, 2014 by SolidSp33d

[Sixty5]

This takes me back to Mass Effect 3 multiplayer all over again.....

A game that was, in the end, fairly well balanced, if a tad hurt by power creep. 

 

Making truly challenging content isn't easy, and seeing it bypassed cheaply by players would have to be a junk-punch for the Devs who made it.

 

 

If it is in the game, abuse it, but if it can be abused, expect it to be fixed.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Sixty5

[SolidSp33d]

I'm getting sick and tired of these nerf crying fun haters.

People resort to the same frames everytime because they're viable against high level enemies. I want to bring Ember to high levels but sadly she sucks so i'm stuck with Trinity, Nova, Booben etc. Buff the weaker frames. Don't touch frames that actually work.

 

Bring them up to the level were people whine things are "too easy?"

It'd be better to bring those other frames a bit, while also bringing the others up. Not entirely one thing. And some of those overused frames have abilities that are just far to ridiculous in their current state to leave like they are.

[CandyDragon]

For one, it wouldn't be to that extreme. And two, it's the first step to making those enemies challenging in the right way. Better to start with "artifical difficulty" (which it won't reeeally be to an extent, unless you're still thinking about 50+ defense, which things shouldn't be balanced on) than none at all.

There is a reason most games do not try to balance the low end. At least not in the sense that its being presented as.

Low tier content is going to feel easy, it feels like far to many here get to jupiter and go "wheres the challenge?"

 

You can thank level scaling for that by the way. The thing where they addressed the issue of mobs being too hard. Granted something was needed but its clearly a step in the wrong direction.

 

In any case, nerfs aren't whats needed, Its enemy buffs and effectiveness. Some enemies need to behave like stalker, resist frame abilities, where others need to resist bullet damage.

 

Granted you can't make it to where its one or the other, there has to be a bleed over, and once again at some point damage will get done in such a way that you bypass the presented mechanics.  But that's part of the fun really.

 

Diablo like systems where you have a set of abilities, all have their merits, and then you optimize one or two to become some monstrous killing machine. This is where a lot of my enjoyment comes from in this game. 

Since honestly all you are doing is obfuscated grind to grind.  People seem like they are trying to mask that fact to themselves by addressing the "balance" and the "difficulty". (there isn't any difficulty, the game mechanics themselves are far to base to present a challenge outside of flat out being a one hit kill to a player)

 

There is currently no "real" endgame to gauge power effectiveness against. And until they add something that's definitively "endgame tier hard" its going to stay like that.  Even then, much like MMORPG's they'd have to adjust for power creep and release new content built around it. Rather than ohh say, just nerfing everything till the existing old content feels difficult again. 

[Petersheikah]

Bring them up to the level were people whine things are "too easy?"

It'd be better to bring those other frames a bit, while also bringing the others up. Not entirely one thing. And some of those overused frames have abilities that are just far to ridiculous in their current state to leave like they are.

In my opinion, DE must buff low tiers frames at the level, for example, of Rhino, but then make the enemies stronger and missions harder. This can fix all i think

Also, I'd love to see more team work as shown in the trailers. Warframe abilities combos are really cool, maybe DE can add more affinity between warframes, the game will be more intresting and funny.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Petersheikah

[IIJetfireII]

Mastery rank locks are needed!

Edited March 9, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII

[OldGodKing]

And this is why I focus more on Rhino's strengths as a slow tank rather than trying too hard to back up his weaknesses with speed.

If people call me a noob for using and loving to play tanky characters, I don't mind being labelled as the noob who uses what he enjoys and not what the masses tell me to do simply because of balancing issues.

[8bit_Ghost]

Well 2 things...

1- I fully agree (At least save Snow Globe :C)

2- You mean Mag's Bullet Attract, right?

Woop you're right sorry ahaha

[kubbi]

Bring them up to the level were people whine things are "too easy?"

It'd be better to bring those other frames a bit, while also bringing the others up. Not entirely one thing. And some of those overused frames have abilities that are just far to ridiculous in their current state to leave like they are.

I personally play defence and survival a lot. Going as far as I can. I find that challenging and for that I need strong frames to keep going. If just playing casual I bring any other frame. Every frame serves a different purpose. If one doesn't fulfill its role its being promoted as (nova=damage, rhino=tank etc) then there's something wrong with the frame and needs to be changed, tweaked etc.

In the end you just cant please everyone.

[Petersheikah]

I personally play defence and survival a lot. Going as far as I can. I find that challenging and for that I need strong frames to keep going. If just playing casual I bring any other frame. Every frame serves a different purpose. If one doesn't fulfill its role its being promoted as (nova=damage, rhino=tank etc) then there's something wrong with the frame and needs to be changed, tweaked etc.

In the end you just cant please everyone.

I think that this topic wasn't created to please everyone, i think that its target is balance the game and making it more hard and difficult. Edited March 9, 2014 by Petersheikah

[MegaSnail]

(I had to write this two times because my computer randomly turned off, so please pardon me if I write anything offensive since I am a bit frustrated)

8bit, you've written some of the problems this game has, and you expect them to be fixed just by you writing what they are. You don't write anything other than, "well Rhino is op with a soma and mods so please fix this." He is, so what? Do you expect DE to fix him just by that simple explanation? No, you shouldn't expect that. Explain why Rhino is op, don't just write all your complaints in a single post. Do you have any ideas on how to fix this? If so, suggest it. Write it down. DE can't read your mind and they can't do everything that you expect to happen without you telling them your ideas.

[seren77]

600 Base Armor and a skill that fully restores health. Also, a skill that adds extra armor. A basic build can turn her into a invincible warframe. I think she's really powerful and tanky, maybe a little nerf can fix it.

 

While she is good at somethings, she is not at others, try soloing one of the tethras doom missions on valk, or doing mobile defense solo, or defense solo. 

 

Sure you probably wont die, but you will be failing the missions.

[SolidSp33d]

There is a reason most games do not try to balance the low end. At least not in the sense that its being presented as.

Low tier content is going to feel easy, it feels like far to many here get to jupiter and go "wheres the challenge?"

 

You can thank level scaling for that by the way. The thing where they addressed the issue of mobs being too hard. Granted something was needed but its clearly a step in the wrong direction.

 

In any case, nerfs aren't whats needed, Its enemy buffs and effectiveness. Some enemies need to behave like stalker, resist frame abilities, where others need to resist bullet damage.

 

Granted you can't make it to where its one or the other, there has to be a bleed over, and once again at some point damage will get done in such a way that you bypass the presented mechanics.  But that's part of the fun really.

 

Diablo like systems where you have a set of abilities, all have their merits, and then you optimize one or two to become some monstrous killing machine. This is where a lot of my enjoyment comes from in this game. 

Since honestly all you are doing is obfuscated grind to grind.  People seem like they are trying to mask that fact to themselves by addressing the "balance" and the "difficulty". (there isn't any difficulty, the game mechanics themselves are far to base to present a challenge outside of flat out being a one hit kill to a player)

 

There is currently no "real" endgame to gauge power effectiveness against. And until they add something that's definitively "endgame tier hard" its going to stay like that.  Even then, much like MMORPG's they'd have to adjust for power creep and release new content built around it. Rather than ohh say, just nerfing everything till the existing old content feels difficult again. 

 

What you say is true, but the idea wasn't to nerf everything into the ground. It's nerfs and buffs on both ends to make some of the blatantly ridiculous things on exploited frames less so. That and make the lower tier frames more capable. In fact it mostly isn't even about the levels content you're able to do. It's the ridiculously situations like certain frames only having ONE viable ability. Having a permanent invincibility, or a tank that moves at light speed and one shots (over exaggeration but you know what I mean). I couldn't agree more about what you said, but I think we've lost focus about these changes to abilities. It's a little less about making the content more challenging through buffs. It's more about fixing exploits and making better designed abilities.

[Ziegrif]

A game that was, in the end, fairly well balanced, if a tad hurt by power creep. 

 

 

Playing Warframe has really put into light just how well balanced ME3 was in the end.

If they had continued for a bit longer to balance the game after Reckoning and get the Juggernaut down a peg and fix the Reegar it'd have been fine the balance would have been great even! There were so damn many ways to play that game with weapon builds and character builds too.

 

Warframe is badly balanced because there is no difficulty cap and it's riddled with abilities that don't have a cap on how far they scale, like everything Loki has or Trinitys Blessing.

Explosive weapons like the Penta are balanced for lvl 50-70 content with bigger mods in play and at least the Penta hits a veritable brick wall when higher armor ratings come into play but that's in the lvl 70 range and there's only 2 ways to even reach lvl 70 enemies and that takes about 45 minutes of gameplay on Survival.

 

It's like everything on offer normally is way below to what our guns or frames can dish out.

 

Except I did have an encounter with lvl 52 Grustrag. A max Iron Skin rhino got one shot, had no time to even react to it as they teleported right at my back. Would have been fun to see what sort of fight it had been but it was over even before it started I couldn't even dodge it, of course I wasn't even expecting them to hit so damn hard.

 

It's like... the low level content isn't scaled correctly for newbies nor high level players and the high level content isn't scaled for frames that don't have cloak or invincibility in some form. I cruised my way to T3 by relying on the Penta then hit the sudden realization that my aiming in other games and on other weapons had actually gotten WORSE. Haven't used the Penta since then and been using Dread to try and start aiming again. Kinda find it funny that one gun can be so heavily relied on to bring yourself to T3 quickly.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Ziegrif

[StanicEnemy]

Nerf loki? are you kidding me he's ok now he isnt overpowered.

Nerf yourself.

[SolidSp33d]

While she is good at somethings, she is not at others, try soloing one of the tethras doom missions on valk, or doing mobile defense solo, or defense solo. 

 

Sure you probably wont die, but you will be failing the missions.

 

Is that really something you should use as evidence? That's kind of like saying, "Oh, this character can fire arrows that one shot anything no matter what, but he has no CC to defend things so he's balanced." Not the right type of argument to make.

[X3Evanescence]

To have downsides, weaknesses, is a part of balance, isn't it? All frames should have a downside/weakness that can be mitigated by an ally. For example, (Crappy example. I admit) Loki. Sure, he is the master of trickery, able to go invisible, disarm enemies, send them on a wild goosechase with well-placed decoys and all those cool stuff, but he does have downsides.

Such as, absolutely terrible shields and health, or the lack of skills that deal damage. To be able to mitigate this flaws somewhat with an allied damage dealer frame that lacks CC as a downside for example, like (insert frame). Having this kind of stuff promotes synergy. I know I am horrible at explaining, but I hope I get my point across.

Frames like Trinity, Rhino, with their downsides completely gone, kills this synergy, where teamwork turns into competition, and a game that is supposed to be hard in a healthy way becomes easy-mode.

Argh. I leave the explaining to the others. And before that, Loki Master- *shot*

Fine.

[Sixty5]

-snip-

I agree wholeheartedly with the ME3 sentiments. 

 

The big problem I have with balance in Warframe is risk vs reward. Stuff like the Claymore was balanced because of its skill cap, you had to know how to move and reload cancel to get the most out of it. Wheras we have things like the Brakk that you just point in the general direction of the enemy and spam left mouse.

 

The introduction of leaders did a lot for me, challenge wise. I still haven't quite figured out how those f***ing magnetic proc leaders work, and they get me killed. 

 

Also, I feel that the early and end game are pretty much flipped. Early game you don't take much damage from enemies, but at the same time it takes a long time to kill them with your Mk-1. playing on my noob alt awhile back, I was having a blast against the Corpus on Kiliken, because I actually had to think about what I was doing, rather than pressing 4 repeatedly, or clicking on each of the enemies once and watching them die.

 

What I'd love to see is enemy health scaling faster and enemy damage scaling slower, to a point that is, enemies with 300000000000 hp are not fun to face, unless they are a fancy boss with cool mechanics, but I digress, the big challenge for this game is to have an endgame where your maxed out weapons are not overkill, and at the same time a mode where you are not taken down in half a second by Marauder Shields wioth his Phaestron MCCXXIV

[Tr1ples1xer]

This is it right here Worst thread I have ever read !! CONGRATS !

 

Nerf cryers need to stop before this game is ruined for good.

 

BUFF EVERYTHING STOP THE NERFS

 

Why ask for nerf ?? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY???

 

I CANT STAND IT ANYMORE, MUST CONTAIN RAGE.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[Sixty5]

This is it right here Worst thread I have ever read !! CONGRATS !

 

Nerf cryers need to stop before this game is ruined for good.

 

BUFF EVERYTHING STOP THE NERFS

 

Why ask for nerf ?? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY???

 

I CANT STAND IT ANYMORE, MUST CONTAIN RAGE.

So if DE, for some reason,released a weapon that did 10000 dps unmodded with no drawbacks whatsoever, you would want EVERYTHING else buffed to this level?

Doing something like that is ridiculous and would break the game. And if you can get past the hyperbole, that is why people call nerf on stuff that is just too powerful.

 

I know you don't like it when your favourite stuff isn't as great anymore, but sometimes nerfs are justified.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Sixty5

[Seraiya.Gier]

When you think about it, it may be an experiment to go and make future frames the same baseline speed. That way there won't be too much of a difference. Hell, I'd be alright with the original Iron Skin when I was invincible for a set duration. The speed is fine, I just see it as DE trying to make it so that future frames won't all be slow while leaving the older frames the same until later. I mean hell, you want to use Zorencopters forever?

 

Let's not forget, Snow Globe with the right mods still has more health than a Rhino can get with mods for Iron Skin. It may be stationary(Maybe they should let it be like those enemy leader snow globes where it follows them, eh, eh, eh?!), but it still has more health.

[seren77]

Is that really something you should use as evidence? That's kind of like saying, "Oh, this character can fire arrows that one shot anything no matter what, but he has no CC to defend things so he's balanced." Not the right type of argument to make.

 

I have most frames in the game, I find valkyr is the most limited. Almost every other frame I have is able to solo all content. I just don't see the point in nerfing a frame that not a lot of people play, that already struggles in some areas of the game. Trinity can be invincible and still shoot, and heal the whole party. Makes Hysteria look pretty subpar.

[Tr1ples1xer]

So if DE, for some reason,released a weapon that did 10000 dps unmodded with no drawbacks whatsoever, you would want EVERYTHING else buffed to this level?

Doing something like that is ridiculous and would break the game. And if you can get past the hyperbole, that is why people call nerf on stuff that is just too powerful.

I know you don't like it when your favourite stuff isn't as great anymore, but sometimes nerfs are justified.

Nothing is even close to what you are saying, don't try that, there is no 10000dps weapon so let me be clear here BUFF EVERYTHING.

Nerf cryers need to go play another game please and leave forever.

BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF BUFF

I CAN CRY BUFF TOO !!

 

OP: Rhino prime is faster than me not fair please nerf !! WTF ??

Edited March 9, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[MegaSnail]

Triples. No. Just... no. You're not adding anything to the subject other than you insulting others.