If You're Gonna Nerf Frost, Might As Well Nerf Rhino (Or, An Epiphany On The State Of Warframe).

[Petersheikah]

Been going through the replies now (been busy today) and although this topic isn't about me, I will say that I do not play games like LoL or DoTA. to be honest, Warframe is one of the few online multiplayer games I play. The other is Spiral Knights.

Spiral Knights? Really? Played that game for 2 hours, just to get the exclusive Team Fortress hat. Then disinstalled it because i thought it was sooo boring. Sorry for the off-topic...

[Petersheikah]

Been going through the replies now (been busy today) and although this topic isn't about me, I will say that I do not play games like LoL or DoTA. to be honest, Warframe is one of the few online multiplayer games I play. The other is Spiral Knights.

Spiral Knights? Really? Played that game for 2 hours, just to get the exclusive Team Fortress hat. Then disinstalled it because i thought it was sooo boring. Sorry for the off-topic...

This is my Excal Prime build

 

http://imgur.com/OVku23F

 

vs.

 

The Rhino build I'm using that I'm also going to use for my Rhino Prime

 

http://imgur.com/cAnQQFG

 

I can last much longer with my Excal than my Rhino in high level survival. Are you still questioning it?

Thanks for the Excalibur Build! I've just build it, waiting for some plat discount to buy a slot...

[ChaoticVice777]

This is my Excal Prime build

 

http://imgur.com/OVku23F

 

Power efficiency caps at 75%, and you've went to 90%. I think taking that maxed Streamline off for something else (Focus, maybe?) would help more...

[Qynchou]

this guy.

 

this guy right here.

 

hahaha

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

Power efficiency caps at 75%, and you've went to 90%. I think taking that maxed Streamline off for something else (Focus, maybe?) would help more...

 

I know it caps, but as you can see I didn't join recently. So some of the mods are from before the changes. Never bothered to remake mods since I forma slots anyway. Focus, or Intensify would be bad. This is a CC build, focus does almost nothing then. The Slash dash is for fast travel. With Streamline + Fleeting Expertise I never run out of energy.

[Temfist]

I'm not sure why having some form of a "meta" game would be bad for warframe. there is a line of course, but having Warframes excel at certain roles, is kinda where the game already is, so if anything, I fell a lot of the abilities should be tweaked and/or reworked slightly, to give them "purpose". It should be tempting to have all of your warframes abilities imo.

you shouldn't, as the player, ever say things like "this ability sux, I'm going to replace it with a stat buff". Players should be saying "this ability is really good, but I won't need it, as I focus on the secondary role of the warframe, so I'll grab mods that improve the secondary role" etc. another player may say "I like having all of my abilities, cause I use them all, so I guess I'll just not use as many power buff moves."

that said, a lot of the more useless mods, (ie; dmg type resistances mods, utility mods, pure convenience mods.) need to be a separate type of mod, like how Aura's are separate, and give you the option of using like, 4 or so. This would give your warframe a total of 14 mod holders, 15 including the aura, allowing you to get the most out of Forma etc.

but yeah, opposed to what the OP says, I think everyone frame should feel OP, but they would only feel OP when performing the roles they were "designed" for. Frost should be able to do lots of CC, and damage redirection for his team, as well as being decent for damage, but the player should have to choose "Damage Redirection/CC focus" or "Bruiser/CC focus". This means that "power duration" and "power strength" should effect moves differently, based on build options etc. "Power Duration" should effect the overall durations, which would include duration of CC effects (duration of blind and ice effect) or in Snow Globes case, how long it "can" last (HP or additional armor), while "power strength" would effect the overall damage and effectiveness of the moves (strength of slows, including the slow within snowglobe, and perhaps the physics of ragdoll moves etc.).

I for one though, think they should make some new mods, that "Add effects to your abilities", such as adding CC advantages, or elemental dmg bonuses etc. For example, a mod that makes enemies hit by your abilities become slowed for a duration based on the mods level, that would stack with other effects. or a mod that would make all of your abilities inflict a fire elemental DoT on anything they hit, or a mod that would make your moves "shock" or "blind", and if your move already does shock or blind, it would stack with the duration etc. This way, you could make any warframe fill a role with the right mods, but warframes that excel at a role would be "super good" at that role given specific mods.

this kind of rebalancing would require some nerfs, but it'd also require a whole lot of buffs, such as making even basic utility moves have an AoE, like superjump, so that using CC mods on excal would make super jump an easy escape move when in a pinch by having "blind" effect on it, etc. overall, if this was done successfully, people would love each warframe for their abilities, and would learn which playstyle they prefer through mod testing, rather then just using the most "easy" to abuse warframes.

thats just an idea though. it'd need some testing, but I'd love to see some stuff like that implemented.

P.S. Rhino should be faster. Iron Skin is a move that allows him to jump into the fray with little consequence, as I believe was it's intended use. that said, Iron skin needs to pull Aggro, with an AoE based on power range. this would allow him to "Tank", and as such, your team should want Rhino to be fast, so that he is always in front of you, and having Iron Skin on would make all the enemies attack Rhino unless something else pulled aggro. another way to balance really strong moves, like Blessing or Nova's MP without making them less fun, is to simply add a cool down. not sure why DE has not done that to more moves.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Temphis

[8bit_Ghost]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/192696-there-shouldnt-be-an-i-in-team-and-heres-how-to-not-have-one-or-what-to-be-done-about-the-incompatibility-of-warframes/

I've made a continuation to this post. Do read if you're interested to know where I'm headed with this.

[Petersheikah]

Maybe the new Focus ranking system will fix that issue with the wartrame balancing...

[LunarTemplar]

anyone else think excal need a bit of a buff for his position to every other frame

yes, he is kinda sad even compared to the other starter Frames.

 

OT:

And yet, its Ember and Valkyr I love most,  my Rhino and Frost Primes? yeah, I'll get to those, eventually, probably after I finish formaing the Frames I actually like regardless of how OP they are or aren't

[Tr1ples1xer]

Then you want to win easily versus all the types of enemies?

Well, i don't. I like to make my own weapons better and create my own build. That's the fun of the game: every weapons can became a good one with some work (of course there are some exceptions). More hard is the Challenge, greater is the reward. I'm really pleased to se my Latron (not a so good weapon) oneshotting Gunners. Or my Seer taking down easily the bosses. Spent Formas and time on them and now I'm really happy of the results.

I agree with this, im saying the same thing no ?, I love my 5 forma latron too but if we listen to all the cry baby nerfers they'd want to nerf it too, and then nerf it some more until no amount of forma could do anything. Im just spouting BUFF BUFF to compensate for their nerf nerf tears.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[Petersheikah]

I agree with this, im saying the same thing no ?, I love my 5 forma latron too but if we listen to all the cry baby nerfers they'd want to nerf it too, and then nerf it some more until no amount of forma could do anything. Im just spouting BUFF BUFF to compensate for their nerf nerf tears.

Well, I think that buffing terrible weapons or nerf good items it's the same thing. Maybe a little nerf to nice equipment and a little buff to the worst one can fix that problem. And DE seems to apporve this as they've nerfed Frost and Brakk and buffed Latron, Grakata and Vulkar

Also, happy to se another player that likes the standard Latron, lots of people say that it sucks...

[Psroij]

Maybe I am misreading the original poster's post, but I saw it more as a call for making other frames as useful as the supposed OP frames than I did as an actual call out to nerfing any one frame. In fact, this appears to be a buffing a thread. Not sure why so many people are coming in going, "STFU OP, nerf this <insert rude gesture>!"

 

What makes a frame be considered OP? Utility. Look at the frames that are considered OP, and notice something very important, that while everyone focuses on 1 ability those frames are not 1 ability frames. At least, they are not any more after Frost got nerfed, as he was the only exception to the rule.

 

Rhino has Iron Skin, which is nice, at higher levels of play it is just a buffer, it melts quickly but it is like having an extra set of shields, so it is nice. But what makes Rhino awesome and appear OP is that he has 2 other extremely useful abilities. Rhino has one of the best CCs in the game in the form of his Stomp; within 1.5 seconds after casting he is mobile again, able to help dish damage or get to safety, while every enemy hit is out of the picture for the next 8 seconds (floating in the air, then laboriously getting back up after they fall to the ground). Rhino's shout is a team damage increase, not the best increase, but an increase nevertheless and invaluable at higher levels of play. Rhino has utility. Take away Iron Skin and Rhino will still be taken, because he is more than Iron Skin. It's a short list of Frames that can say the same.

 

Look at Loki, the only frame that can boast 4 useful abilities at all levels of play. Loki is the master race because while his invisibility is nice, it is the fact that Radial Disarm, Switch Teleport, and even Decoy never stop being useful. You can take away any one of those abilities and Loki will still be valuable to a team. How many other frames can you say that about?

 

Take a gander at Nova. She might seem to be one trick like Frost was, because M.Prime does the work of multiple abilities; at lower level play it is a room clearer, while at higher level play it is a slow and damage increaser. But Nova offers more than that, she offers Anti-Matter Drop, which is the MOAB of Warframe, and is her damage dealer at high levels of play. She also offers Wormhole, which is invaluable for getting the entire team to defensible positions. Take away any one ability and she will still offer something to a team that justifies bringing her along. Again, how many frames can you say that about?

 

Trinity, the queen bee. Everyone focuses on her Blessing, which is an insane ability, but she is not a one trick pony. Link and Energy Vampire are exceedingly helpful. She would suffer more if she lost Blessing, because Link would lose synergy, and with the right builds most people don't need Energy Vampire, but she could still justify a place with a good player at the wheel.

 

Vauban? Bastille took a hit, but he still has Vortex to combo with it. Bounce is like a poor man's Worm Hole, but it still helps get the team to places that are good to be. Vauban is the master at giving a team breathing room, even more so if it is against Infested, but he is not a one faction frame.

 

Now let's look at some of the other frame's people love, and why they are not even on the same tier.

 

Excalibur? Don't make me laugh, I love Excalibur, but take away Radial Blind and he offers nothing to a team.

 

Nyx? Take away Chaos and a very skilled player might be able to justify using her Absorb or maybe Mind Control, but that is a tough hill to climb.

 

Frost? We already know about Frost. One trick pony that had his one trick taken away. Relegated to the pile of frames that are only good until the going gets tough.

 

Volt? I love me some Volt. Get into a game with him and I start singing the Sonic song while tossing lightening and bouncing off the walls. He has a pretty reliable stun with that Shock, and a good Shield, but what does he offer a team at the level where enemies start one-shotting everyone and taking tons of damage? Very little, and take away that Shield and he offers next to nil. He's a blast to play, but he is also the king of low level play.

 

Ember? Have not played around much with her Accelerant, and I know some people have made a strong case that Accelerant might synergize well enough to make her a top tier frame for high level play, but that also means take that Accelerant away and she is the Queen to Volt's king.

 

Nekros? We know about Nekros. Poor, poor Nekros.

 

And so on, and so forth. Notice the pattern? Most frames offer 1, just 1 ability that makes them even worth considering to bring to high level play. It's a travesty. The top tier frames offer 3+ abilities that make them valuable in all levels of play, and that is a travesty as well, because every frame should offer that.

 

And let me pick on a frame I love to pick on: Banshee. Banshee is the example of a frame that could be top tier, if her abilities were not so handicapped. Sound Quake would be awesome if Banshee could move during it, and was not a sitting duck for longer than the ability actually CCs. Sonic Boom would be an excellent ability if it reliably knocked enemies down instead of usually just staggering them for a quarter of a second. Sonar would be beyond awesome if it only highlighted the weak point of an enemy, but had a lesser damage multiplier to compensate. Silence would be awesome if it was actually something remotely useful and interesting. Banshee can be good in the hands of a skilled player, but that same player could be better with any other frame.

 

Banshee might be the only example of a frame that is actually properly balanced, in and of itself, with powerful abilities that have large draw backs. Sadly, that means Banshee herself is not balanced for Warframe itself, because Warframe is balanced around powers that are just powerful, and any draw backs those powers have is because they scale like crap.

 

I cringe to see which one trick pony of a Frame comes under DE's gaze next. Maybe DE has some kind of long term plan for balance that requires taking the single tricks away, but I don't see that as reassuring if they plan on achieving that by tossing frames into the rubbish bin one at a time until such time as that balance is actually implemented.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Psroij

[Aggh]

Think damage 1.0 Acrid. Think all weapons buffed to that level.

GG END OF WARFRAME

Geddit? :D

Yeah, instead they reworked the entire damage model.  Acrid's OPness was a reflection of bigger underlying problems of the base game mechanics.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Aggh

[CapnFusterCluck]

I agree with OP's post. 

 

+1. 

 

Rhino is only good for Iron Skin and Rhino Stomp. Not only that, he's faster than an Ash. Which doesn't make any sense to me. Hell, he does more damage than Ash. And Ash is a @$^@%(& lethal ninja for God's sake. 

 

Rhino is not doing his job well. 

[CapnFusterCluck]

Maybe I am misreading the original poster's post, but I saw it more as a call for making other frames as useful as the supposed OP frames than I did as an actual call out to nerfing any one frame. In fact, this appears to be a buffing a thread. Not sure why so many people are coming in going, "STFU OP, nerf this <insert rude gesture>!"

 

What makes a frame be considered OP? Utility. Look at the frames that are considered OP, and notice something very important, that while everyone focuses on 1 ability those frames are not 1 ability frames. At least, they are not any more after Frost got nerfed, as he was the only exception to the rule.

 

Rhino has Iron Skin, which is nice, at higher levels of play it is just a buffer, it melts quickly but it is like having an extra set of shields, so it is nice. But what makes Rhino awesome and appear OP is that he has 2 other extremely useful abilities. Rhino has one of the best CCs in the game in the form of his Stomp; within 1.5 seconds after casting he is mobile again, able to help dish damage or get to safety, while every enemy hit is out of the picture for the next 8 seconds (floating in the air, then laboriously getting back up after they fall to the ground). Rhino's shout is a team damage increase, not the best increase, but an increase nevertheless and invaluable at higher levels of play. Rhino has utility. Take away Iron Skin and Rhino will still be taken, because he is more than Iron Skin. It's a short list of Frames that can say the same.

 

Look at Loki, the only frame that can boast 4 useful abilities at all levels of play. Loki is the master race because while his invisibility is nice, it is the fact that Radial Disarm, Switch Teleport, and even Decoy never stop being useful. You can take away any one of those abilities and Loki will still be valuable to a team. How many other frames can you say that about?

 

Take a gander at Nova. She might seem to be one trick like Frost was, because M.Prime does the work of multiple abilities; at lower level play it is a room clearer, while at higher level play it is a slow and damage increaser. But Nova offers more than that, she offers Anti-Matter Drop, which is the MOAB of Warframe, and is her damage dealer at high levels of play. She also offers Wormhole, which is invaluable for getting the entire team to defensible positions. Take away any one ability and she will still offer something to a team that justifies bringing her along. Again, how many frames can you say that about?

 

Trinity, the queen bee. Everyone focuses on her Blessing, which is an insane ability, but she is not a one trick pony. Link and Energy Vampire are exceedingly helpful. She would suffer more if she lost Blessing, because Link would lose synergy, and with the right builds most people don't need Energy Vampire, but she could still justify a place with a good player at the wheel.

 

Vauban? Bastille took a hit, but he still has Vortex to combo with it. Bounce is like a poor man's Worm Hole, but it still helps get the team to places that are good to be. Vauban is the master at giving a team breathing room, even more so if it is against Infested, but he is not a one faction frame.

 

Now let's look at some of the other frame's people love, and why they are not even on the same tier.

 

Excalibur? Don't make me laugh, I love Excalibur, but take away Radial Blind and he offers nothing to a team.

 

Nyx? Take away Chaos and a very skilled player might be able to justify using her Absorb or maybe Mind Control, but that is a tough hill to climb.

 

Frost? We already know about Frost. One trick pony that had his one trick taken away. Relegated to the pile of frames that are only good until the going gets tough.

 

Volt? I love me some Volt. Get into a game with him and I start singing the Sonic song while tossing lightening and bouncing off the walls. He has a pretty reliable stun with that Shock, and a good Shield, but what does he offer a team at the level where enemies start one-shotting everyone and taking tons of damage? Very little, and take away that Shield and he offers next to nil. He's a blast to play, but he is also the king of low level play.

 

Ember? Have not played around much with her Accelerant, and I know some people have made a strong case that Accelerant might synergize well enough to make her a top tier frame for high level play, but that also means take that Accelerant away and she is the Queen to Volt's king.

 

Nekros? We know about Nekros. Poor, poor Nekros.

 

And so on, and so forth. Notice the pattern? Most frames offer 1, just 1 ability that makes them even worth considering to bring to high level play. It's a travesty. The top tier frames offer 3+ abilities that make them valuable in all levels of play, and that is a travesty as well, because every frame should offer that.

 

And let me pick on a frame I love to pick on: Banshee. Banshee is the example of a frame that could be top tier, if her abilities were not so handicapped. Sound Quake would be awesome if Banshee could move during it, and was not a sitting duck for longer than the ability actually CCs. Sonic Boom would be an excellent ability if it reliably knocked enemies down instead of usually just staggering them for a quarter of a second. Sonar would be beyond awesome if it only highlighted the weak point of an enemy, but had a lesser damage multiplier to compensate. Silence would be awesome if it was actually something remotely useful and interesting. Banshee can be good in the hands of a skilled player, but that same player could be better with any other frame.

 

Banshee might be the only example of a frame that is actually properly balanced, in and of itself, with powerful abilities that have large draw backs. Sadly, that means Banshee herself is not balanced for Warframe itself, because Warframe is balanced around powers that are just powerful, and any draw backs those powers have is because they scale like crap.

 

I cringe to see which one trick pony of a Frame comes under DE's gaze next. Maybe DE has some kind of long term plan for balance that requires taking the single tricks away, but I don't see that as reassuring if they plan on achieving that by tossing frames into the rubbish bin one at a time until such time as that balance is actually implemented.

Throw Ash in there too. 

 

He has nothing to offer in high level defense missions :|

 

He needs to be more team-oriented. 

[Reku1]

read the first 2 little paragraphs and all i heard was "i hate everything that's not bad because im a hipster that has to go against anything good."

 

Quit complaining about other things being better that yours and complain about how your need to be made better instead.

 

Don't nerf rhino, Buff frost and make his abilities less S#&amp;&#036;.

[CapnFusterCluck]

read the first 2 little paragraphs and all i heard was "i hate everything that's not bad because im a hipster that has to go against anything good."

Quit complaining about other things being better that yours and complain about how your need to be made better instead.

Don't nerf rhino, Buff frost and make his abilities less S#&$.

Buff Frost? But... He's already strong as he is. Edited March 10, 2014 by ikillyou8196

[Reku1]

Buff Frost. But... He's already strong as he is. 

When i say buff i mean add more utility, as it is now he only bubbles and deals out dmg.

 

stuff like rhino's roar and valkyrs buffs, that sort of thing.

[yessiree]

pfffffffffft, not like it's gonna make the game any less of a cakewalk.

[CapnFusterCluck]

When i say buff i mean add more utility, as it is now he only bubbles and deals out dmg.

 

stuff like rhino's roar and valkyrs buffs, that sort of thing.

I don't see how Frost can add anymore utility he can; he's an Ice-frame. All of his abilities are ice, and most of his utility lies in his abilities; thus making him a caster-tank. His Ice Wave slows and deals pretty good damage, and Avalanche had pretty good utility up until when DE removed the "bug". In Devstream 24, however, due the many complaints by the community, it seems that DE is actually rethinking of implementing that as a buff to Avalanche; thus serving as a "complement" to his nerf to his Snowglobe. 

Rhino and Valkyr are different only that they don't rely on their abilities as much to serve as a tank. Valkyr is naturally tanky with superbly high armor values, and Rhino with his Iron Skin. 

[LanCeAlot]

From title.

They gonna nerf frost or already nerf frost?

My fun avalanche Rip u12.4 :[

U12 globe just complicated & not good..

Saw many good/bad suggestion in WF ability feedback.

But not gonna happen,right?

Whyframe & Nerfframe.

[Instinction]

For god's sake, DE, your forerunning frame is Excalibur and almost no-one except new players really likes to play him! He's one of the most dis-recommended frames you have. That should have given you the message already.

 

This.

[Gr3vi3R]

1. Rhino already got Nerfed, since Iron Skin is no longer "Invulnerability"

2. If you think Rhino's broken, look again at all the Warframes...

[BlackFox666]

frost has two useless abilities as is leave the only good tanky frame we have alone

[thegooseking]

I've noticed some people in this thread (and the forums in general), not only accepting, but promoting the idea that frames should be organised into tiers. That's patent nonsense. Why would you then choose anything other than a top-tier frame? It's not like you have to work up to it or anything.

 

I mean, it's ok for some frames to be more powerful than others, but the extra power should be inversely proportional to how easy they are to play. Right now there's no benefit to playing a more difficult frame (other than that it makes things more interesting) because the easiest frame is also one of the best. By extension, you'll never find a squad looking for an interesting composition.

 

You're not going to convince me that the fact that the existence of all those other frames only serves to give you the illusion of uberness for choosing Rhino (when it was never really a choice to begin with) isn't broken.