Armor And Steel Fiber Discussion & Feedback

[KittyDarkling]

    I feel Valkyr is a great example of how Armor efficiency has changed in Warframe. Since the change to damage, armor has obviously taken a hit to it's efficiency. Though there was previously a global buff to the armor of all frames, I'm sure most of us can agree that it was by far not enough.

 

    Valkyr now stands as the new standard for how much armor is efficient. She's a "super tank" and as such relies on her armor. This sets her above Frost, Rhino, and Saryn. But I feel that they need a similar buff to bring their armor up to an adequately useful point. These are the tiers I propose:

                                |

TL/DR:  Buff armor V

 

 

Valkyr "Shieldless Tank"

600 Armor (as it stands now)

 

Frost, Rhino, Saryn "Tank"

450 Armor

 

Loki, Oberon, Nekros, Ash, Mag, Excalibur, Vauban "Fighter"

150 Armor

 

Nova, Banshee, Ember, Volt, Trinity, Nyx, Zephyr  "Caster"

30 Armor

 

    Initially one might feel these values are to high. In practice however I'd turn those thoughts to the attention of Valkyr's initial release. When Valkyr was first released with 200 armor it was an eye opening experience as to how 200 and even later 300 armor performs. The community felt that she was to squishy to be used and as such DE buffed her armor again.

 

    If the community feels that this much Armor wasn't enough to enjoy playing her, Then this brings perspective to the Frames that have STILL use that value. It's true we can have 1000 shields, but that 300 points of health shouldn't be completely worthless. Furthermore with the increase in frames that can heal us, health has become a great deal more viable for us to build into. With more accessibility to health builds the issue of armor becomes more and more glaring.

 

    This global buff would allow us to better diversify our frame builds, where at the same time Valkyr's example shows that such amounts of armor would not overpower health. Of course these values are subject to change depending on what DE feels is best, but I feel their solid values that would work quite well in practice.

 

 

                  So, Thoughts?

 

 

 

    EDIT: Midway through typing this post up I decided it would be best to tackle steel fiber in a separate post after I gather feedback from this one. If a Mod sees this I'd ask to have the title modified if that's no trouble.

 

    EDIT: Numbers changed to reflect proper damage reduction (Data provided by: HillsAndTheSea)

Edited March 10, 2014 by KittyDarkling

[CelticMoss]

i say saryn should be little higher cause she's more of a meat shield tank unlike rhino that is the shield tank with armor skin

Edited March 10, 2014 by SarahApple

[LoopStricken]

Frost, Rhino and Saryn actually have shields worth a damn, though. That's the only reason Valkyr has such a massive amount of armour.

[Coren024]

While I do think that armor on frames should be increased more, I don't think the increases should be that large, maybe casters (and loki) at 50 armor for 15% damage reduction, normal frames at 130 for 30% damage reduction, Rhino and Frost at 300 for 50%, saryn at 450 for 60%, and valkyr at 600 for 66.7%. Casters should rely on their abilities to reduce damage, while the tanks should attract the damage so their allies don't take it.

[CelticMoss]

Saryn is kind of like your GF finding out you cheated she will get in your face and beat the crap out of you :o

[KittyDarkling]

While I do think that armor on frames should be increased more, I don't think the increases should be that large, maybe casters (and loki) at 50 armor for 15% damage reduction, normal frames at 130 for 30% damage reduction, Rhino and Frost at 300 for 50%, saryn at 450 for 60%, and valkyr at 600 for 66.7%. Casters should rely on their abilities to reduce damage, while the tanks should attract the damage so their allies don't take it.

   

    This in an understandable opinion, and it seams you have a better grasp of how the armor works than I do, However why would you suggest nerfing Loki? Loki stands at 65 with all other "fighter tier" frames currently and any buff to them should also include him as well.

[TheThreadWeaver]

Part of the dilemma is related to how damage works now, with most enemies using the same damage types as us (slash, puncture, impact). With a lot of corpus and some grineer weapons doing puncture damage, Frames that are largely armor-dependent like Valkyr just aren't as viable as frames with an even spread of shields, armor and health. With her almost non-existent shields, Valkyr needed more armor to cope with enemies that deal puncture damage.

[Coren024]

    However why would you suggest nerfing Loki? Loki stands at 65 with all other "fighter tier" frames currently and any buff to them should also include him as well.

 

Oh, I guess I thought Loki was down there with the casters as he is so flimsy anyway.

[HillsAndTheSea]

im gonna take the copy the data i did from a previous topic

 

damage 1.0:

 

-10 armor = 90% dr

-40 armor = 71% dr

-50 armor = 66% dr

-125 armor = 44% dr

-150 armor = 40% dr

-200 armor = 33% dr

 

current damage 2.0

 

-10 buffed to 15 = 95% dr

-40 buffed to 50 = 85% dr

-50 buffed to 65 = 82% dr

-125 buffed to 155 = 65% dr

-150 buffed to 190 = 61% dr

-200 buffed to 300 = 50% dr

 

adjusted damage 2.0

 

-10 buffed to 30 = 90% dr

-40 buffed to 120 = 71% dr

-50 buffed to 150 = 66% dr

-125 buffed to 375 = 44% dr

-150 buffed to 450 = 40% dr

-200 buffed to 600 = 33% dr

 

dr = damage received

 

basically armor was nerfed to 1/3 when damage 2.0 came out, so in order for the warframes to have the correct armor levels, they would all have to be multiplied by 3, which valkyr was the only one who received this treatment

Edited March 10, 2014 by HillsAndTheSea

[KittyDarkling]

im gonna take the copy the data i did from a previous topic

 

damage 1.0:

 

-10 armor = 90% dr

-40 armor = 71% dr

-50 armor = 66% dr

-125 armor = 44% dr

-150 armor = 40% dr

-200 armor = 33% dr

 

current damage 2.0

 

-10 buffed to 15 = 95% dr

-40 buffed to 50 = 85% dr

-50 buffed to 65 = 82% dr

-125 buffed to 155 = 65% dr

-150 buffed to 190 = 61% dr

-200 buffed to 300 = 50% dr

 

adjusted damage 2.0

 

-10 buffed to 30 = 90% dr

-40 buffed to 120 = 71% dr

-50 buffed to 150 = 66% dr

-125 buffed to 375 = 44% dr

-150 buffed to 450 = 40% dr

-200 buffed to 600 = 33% dr

 

dr = damage received

 

basically armor was nerfed to 1/3 when damage 2.0 came out, so in order for the warframes to have the correct armor levels, they would all have to be multiplied by 3, which valkyr was the only one who received this treatment

 

    That's really quite helpful! Thank you for re-posting that. I'd like to use some of this info to update my post if you don't mind?

 

 

Oh, I guess I thought Loki was down there with the casters as he is so flimsy anyway.

 

    s'an understandable mistake!

 

 

While I do think that armor on frames should be increased more, I don't think the increases should be that large, maybe casters (and loki) at 50 armor for 15% damage reduction, normal frames at 130 for 30% damage reduction, Rhino and Frost at 300 for 50%, saryn at 450 for 60%, and valkyr at 600 for 66.7%. Casters should rely on their abilities to reduce damage, while the tanks should attract the damage so their allies don't take it.

i say saryn should be little higher cause she's more of a meat shield tank unlike rhino that is the shield tank with armor skin

 

    I like this input into Saryn having more Armor, seeing as she's a little more "naked" then Rhino with his Iron skin or Frost with his Bubble. She has her molt but it doesn't quite measure up.

[Jin_Lightning]

I do agree that armour needs work/ more armour for all.

 

I think Valkyr needs LESS armour, for she's a berserker. But that's me, and not really the point here.

 

In terms of the armour classes you made, I like most of them, but maybe move a few around.

 

High Armour-600 Base (Tanks)

Rhino, Saryn, Frost, Oberon

 

Medium Armour-250 Base (All around, and semi-casters)

Excalibur, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Ash, Vauban

 

Light Armour-200-250 Base (Full casters)

Nyx, Ember, Loki, Banshee, Trinity, Mag, Nova, Zepher

 

From my understanding this, at least in my eyes, makes more sense.

 

Saryn and Oberon should rely mostly on their higher HP and armour ratings, while Frost and Rhino have their powerful shields, but maybe less HP. (Thank you SarahApple for correcting me ^_^)

 

The middle class should be able to take a few hits, but should also focus on avoiding attacks as well, forming a mixed defense.

 

The light class should avoid taking hits beyond their shields entirely, and even avoiding that as well.

 

Again, this is just the way I see it.

 

-Jin

Edited March 10, 2014 by Jin_Lightning

[CelticMoss]

I do agree that armour needs work/ more armour for all.

 

I think Valkyr needs LESS armour, for she's a berserker. But that's me, and not really the point here.

 

In terms of the armour classes you made, I like most of them, but maybe move a few around.

 

High Armour-600 Base (Tanks)

Rhino, Saryn, Frost, Oberon

 

Medium Armour-250 Base (All around, and semi-casters)

Excalibur, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Ash, Vauban

 

Light Armour-200-250 Base (Full casters)

Nyx, Ember, Loki, Banshee, Trinity, Mag, Nova, Zepher

 

From my understanding this, at least in my eyes, makes more sense.

 

Rhino and Oberon should rely mostly on their higher HP and armour ratings, while Frost and Saryn have their powerful shields, but maybe less HP.

 

The middle class should be able to take a few hits, but should also focus on avoiding attacks as well, forming a mixed defense.

 

The light class should avoid taking hits beyond their shields entirely, and even avoiding that as well.

 

Again, this is just the way I see it.

 

-Jin

uh rhino is shield tank and saryn is a hp tank

[Jin_Lightning]

uh rhino is shield tank and saryn is a hp tank

Whoops, my bad. Reverse that. I got it mixed up lol

 

-Jin

[KittyDarkling]

I do agree that armour needs work/ more armour for all.

 

I think Valkyr needs LESS armour, for she's a berserker. But that's me, and not really the point here.

 

In terms of the armour classes you made, I like most of them, but maybe move a few around.

 

High Armour-600 Base (Tanks)

Rhino, Saryn, Frost, Oberon

 

Medium Armour-250 Base (All around, and semi-casters)

Excalibur, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Ash, Vauban

 

Light Armour-200-250 Base (Full casters)

Nyx, Ember, Loki, Banshee, Trinity, Mag, Nova, Zepher

 

From my understanding this, at least in my eyes, makes more sense.

 

Saryn and Oberon should rely mostly on their higher HP and armour ratings, while Frost and Rhino have their powerful shields, but maybe less HP. (Thank you SarahApple for correcting me ^_^)

 

The middle class should be able to take a few hits, but should also focus on avoiding attacks as well, forming a mixed defense.

 

The light class should avoid taking hits beyond their shields entirely, and even avoiding that as well.

 

Again, this is just the way I see it.

 

-Jin

 

    Really the "classes" I made are pre-existing tiers that already exist in game. I used -slight- flexibility to fix what I perverse as minor differences bumping the 50s up with the 65s.  (I don't think anyone will call a 3% buff all that much). Whether larger scale change to individual Warframes is needed or desired is another topic in and of itself. These proposed changes fall more in line with "A fix" where your suggestion is more of a "re-balance".

 

    A fix will take DE much less time to look into and implement. where a rebalanced would be a much more involved process that's done on a case by case basis

[Jin_Lightning]

    Really the "classes" I made are pre-existing tiers that already exist in game. I used -slight- flexibility to fix what I perverse as minor differences bumping the 50s up with the 65s.  (I don't think anyone will call a 3% buff all that much). Whether larger scale change to individual Warframes is needed or desired is another topic in and of itself. These proposed changes fall more in line with "A fix" where your suggestion is more of a "re-balance".

 

    A fix will take DE much less time to look into and implement. where a rebalanced would be a much more involved process that's done on a case by case basis

Yeah, you're right. The armour just needs more tweaks.

 

Thanks for the ideas and discussion ^_^

 

-Jin

[FigsAndMice]

I do agree that armour needs work/ more armour for all.

 

I think Valkyr needs LESS armour, for she's a berserker. But that's me, and not really the point here.

 

In terms of the armour classes you made, I like most of them, but maybe move a few around.

 

High Armour-600 Base (Tanks)

Rhino, Saryn, Frost, Oberon

 

Medium Armour-250 Base (All around, and semi-casters)

Excalibur, Nekros, Valkyr, Volt, Ash, Vauban

 

Light Armour-200-250 Base (Full casters)

Nyx, Ember, Loki, Banshee, Trinity, Mag, Nova, Zepher

 

From my understanding this, at least in my eyes, makes more sense.

 

Saryn and Oberon should rely mostly on their higher HP and armour ratings, while Frost and Rhino have their powerful shields, but maybe less HP. (Thank you SarahApple for correcting me ^_^)

 

The middle class should be able to take a few hits, but should also focus on avoiding attacks as well, forming a mixed defense.

 

The light class should avoid taking hits beyond their shields entirely, and even avoiding that as well.

 

Again, this is just the way I see it.

 

-Jin

 

I quite disagree with your viewpoint about Valkyr. She is a tank, make no mistake. She cannot be all round with no direct damaging skills, low shields, and no CC abilities. 250 armour and she will die in a few hits on higher planets. She however is a tank with 600 armour. With her current base armour 600, I added the Armour Mod to get the final armour to 1000. With Warcry, it becomes 2000, and you are a tank. To top that, add Vitality and Rage then use Hysteria to regain health. As it stands, she is the best tank in the game right now (not counting Trinity), even better than Rhino IMO. 

[Jin_Lightning]

I quite disagree with your viewpoint about Valkyr. She is a tank, make no mistake. She cannot be all round with no direct damaging skills, low shields, and no CC abilities. 250 armour and she will die in a few hits on higher planets. She however is a tank with 600 armour. With her current base armour 600, I added the Armour Mod to get the final armour to 1000. With Warcry, it becomes 2000, and you are a tank. To top that, add Vitality and Rage then use Hysteria to regain health. As it stands, she is the best tank in the game right now (not counting Trinity), even better than Rhino IMO. 

Very true, but I'm also referring to when DE tweaks the armour system (*cough* Armour 2.0?) As of right now? Yes, Valkyr is mega tank.

 

What I was referring to, is that fact that she's called a berzerker. Berzerkers are people who, in a traditional sense, throw themselves at the enemy with no regard for personal safety.

 

Valkyr DOES that, but there's no downside to her Hysteria. I think Hysteria needs to loose the invulnerability, and maybe have something that increases her defenses as she kills more and more. She regenerates health, and that's really good, but the invulnerability seems out of place, at least right when the skill is activated.

 

She should have to build up to that defense.

 

But that's me.

 

-Jin