Nerf Ammo Capacity

[notionphil]

There can never be true balance in any game, especially in a game with micro transactions. There has to be progression and in a game like this power is progression.  More powerful the newer items from previous items, the more likely to sell. That is how this works. Selling new content and new items. If every weapon was even in power than there is no need to get new items. DE is doing just fine. Nerf nothing

 

No one said anything about every weapon being even in power.

 

I said weapons should be balanced within tiers, and some should be more powerful...but have a tradeoff. This is a tradeoff.

[LukeAura]

There can never be true balance in any game, especially in a game with micro transactions. There has to be progression and in a game like this power is progression.  More powerful the newer items from previous items, the more likely to sell. That is how this works. Selling new content and new items. If every weapon was even in power than there is no need to get new items. DE is doing just fine. Nerf nothing

This wouldn't be a nerf in power though. 

This would be a nerf in comfort and flexibility. A skill gap to differentiate items of lower and higher strengths than expected.

These are also by tier. Rank 6 weapons can have more ammo than rank 4s, as long as they're below the rank 6 power curve. 

[luanle21]

True, balance doesn't matter against enemies right?

 

Let's make a new rank 0 primary with a 100M AoE, 10k base damage, and see how long we keep playing for.

.... u take what i said way too seriously

i ment the way it was was fine stop screwing with weapons

we have ammo mutation and we still eat ammo on any weapon easily

[notionphil]

.... u take what i said way too seriously

i ment the way it was was fine stop screwing with weapons

we have ammo mutation and we still eat ammo on any weapon easily

 

I mean you no personal offense - I take issue with your way of thinking.

 

My question stands:

 

If you don't want a 100M 10K AoE, how about an 50M 5K AoE?

 

You don't care about balance right? So either no difference in power matters.... or ALL differences in power matter.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

LOL yeah its crazy to think that weapons which are really powerful for their tier might have some kinda tradeoff.

 

<<<<----This guy!

Im sorry but not only running out of ammo is easily worked around by using team restore or muts as it is boring as eff as well.

 

Also, I dont think everyone has maxed serration, split chamber and heavy caliber and 4 forma on their soma, 5 on phage, 6 on synapse and so on, we earn the right to mow things down.

 

We just need enemies on par with that.

 

My dream regarding this balance thing is playing a mode like Mass Effect 3 multiplayer, ammo was almost not an issue, took you a fair amount of bullets to kill enemies mainly the heavy units on gold/platinum difficulty, you had to unload your clip while they were reloading theirs, then duck again, involved some kind of strategy.

And they wouldn't necessrily swarm you all the time, unless in very small maps or if you are not killing them fast enough, 2 hits would rip you off your shields and 2 more put you down.

 

As the game stands now, you weapon can easily get past wav 100 in defense missions, but your warframe can't get past wave 30, 40 at best, where dozens of enemies that can 2 hit kill you wil swarm you, unless you spam your spells, yeah, i call them spells, then we are forced to think on the spamming problem, the only thing that actually keep warframes alive, know what i mean?

Edited March 13, 2014 by (PS4)DanteVincent

[-----.__.G.0.D.__.-----]

My answer: NO. 

 

Prepare your reload spam. I think my finger takes enough pain from sliding and spin slashing. DE Please ignore this guy. Less time and resources breaking weapons, and more time and resources creating more for better options and balancing. 

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I'm not opposed to tiering; in fact I welcome it.

 

I believe the Bratton should have 1200 ammo and the Supra also having 1200 ammo, bc they are both under the power curve for their particular tier.

 

I didn't want to explain this in the OP but maybe I'll put it into a spoiler. My lack of numbers, and desire to not go into too much numerical details in the OP left a large grey area for interpretation.

Sorry about the delayed response...  Compilers project (converting the AST to SSA if you care) is due tomorrow (technically, it's due today, but I haven't slept yet).  I ordered dinner so I'm taking a break while I eat.

 

Even if you do claim to be allowing tiers, you're still turning the entire game into varying degrees of "pro mode"  The more powerful the weapon is, the less its ammo which means you have to be more and more responsible and I cannot bring myself to like the idea of a pro mode for weaponry on tiers other than the top.  I like the ideas from your Prime/Wraith/Vandal thread.  I just don't think you can apply those ideas to the general weaponry of the game.  Perhaps I'll figure out a more eloquent way of putting it in the future that also functions as a stronger argument that will serve to compel others.  For now, however, I will simply leave it as I disagree with this thread.

[Killerdude8]

 

Seriously.

No.

No.

No.

 

Weapons like the Soma, Supra and friends have a hard enough time hanging onto the ammo they currently got, Reducing it makes those weapons almost impossibly difficult to use for more than a run on Terminus.

 

Shame too, Phil usually has some amazing ideas, but this one is just utter Trash.

No way in hell will I even come close to supporting it.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Killerdude8

[SicSlaver]

I agree with you that ammo needs changing, but I don't agree with your examples! Ogris still using rifle ammo is ridiculous! Why haven't they done anything about this yet? Is it so hard to change the ammo types to something simple like light, medium, heavy? I think making changes to each weapon and the spare ammo they can carry is too much though!

Edited March 14, 2014 by SicSlaver

[SPiRALFACToR]

this idea is just anti fun.

although my supra with 1000 rounds sounds fun.

 

also, to the people who complain about the ogris and penta's ammo capacity, i give you a challenge.

 

go and play with it and tell me how often you go under 466 rounds of ammo in normal circumstances.

if you do, you have used 74 rounds and you would be out of ammo if it had a sniper pool.

my bet is you never will.

 

hell, i never run out of ammo with my paris prime with a max charge speed build so its not even sniper ammo box rarity.

Edited March 14, 2014 by SPiRALFACToR

[NotBot]

The problem is that while this is a way to balance things, it is also anti-fun. While in a world without ammo restoring devices, this would serve to diversify weapon loadouts. However, as it stands right now it would just create long strings of finding a safe zone and sitting down around the ammo restore, because people would rather stick to using their powerful, low ammo count guns, even if it means suffering long waiting periods. It would certainly help balance the weapons mechanically, but it would just end up with annoyed players waiting on ammo restores, rather than satisfied players accepting of their more-balanced weapon choice.

[Shanicus]

Well, now we've got a problem - what the heck are you defining as a 'Tier'? You seem to be factoring Primes in as 'low tier' weaponry, when in reality they should be in a tier of their own. Like, let's have a look at the Boltor Prime -

 

High damage gun, Mastery Rank 0.

Obtained via:
T1 Exterminate (level 15-20 Enemies)

T3 Mobile Defense (35-45 Enemies)

T3 Exterminate (35-45 Enemies)

ODD (25+)

So, not exactly a 'moderately easy' weapon to access, since you have to fight end game enemies to even get a CHANCE at one of it's parts. Rolling that in with other Mastery Rank 0 weaponry is just... not going to work, since Mastery Rank 0 weaponry is available without needing to fight the end-game enemies.

And for the love of god, don't try to factor in Markets/Platinum purchases for balance! Reducing ammo pools because someone can buy a strong gun with real world money and use it against low level foes would be like World of Warcraft making low level items/repairs super expensive because some players send money to their alts. Yes, there's gonna be some Rank 0 guy running around in a Nekros with a Soma and Marelock, but that doesn't mean you cut the ammo pool! That's absolutely terrible design right there! Adding in the caveat of 'Oh, well, Ammo Restores now do 100%' doesn't help the fact that that means you have to then buy secondary items just to use the gun you purchased/farmed for, which is once again awful design! Ammo restores are an optional item that you can use to ease up ammo concerns in long missions, not a requirement to use your gun in a standard mission!

Seriously, I can get behind ammo needing a tweak around, but it's a much bigger system then you seem to be presenting it as. Each weapon would need to be looked at, with MOST weapons getting an increase (Afuris, Twin Vipers, etc) and FEW others getting a reduction (Ogris, Penta, Grinlock), with many weapons staying exactly the same (Ignis, Soma, Gorgon, most Shotguns, Braton Prime, Boltors, etc.) since their ammo is already balanced to their power (will run out of ammo pretty quickly against the higher leveled enemies unless you play smart).

So... yeah. I get the idea, but not the way you're presenting it. Maybe if you had some Tiers of your own that weren't balanced with Wallet Warriors in mind, I could get behind it, but as it is right now... nope.

 

[Wehe]

I don't use the soma or the boltor prime or the huge hyped weapons, even so this is a terrible idea for the following reasons

 

1. Orokin cell drop rates have been nerfed to the ground, a lot of these prime weapons are hard to get at as it is and are even harder now, they do not need such a drastic nerf.

 

2. ammo mutation auras are a thing, in any premade group people don't run 4 energy siphons anyway.

 

3. People can just hoard ammo recovery drops from the shop and use them in game.

 

4. point 3 causes these guns to be more viable to the people who have credit boosters and large amounts of credits, you are supporting some kind of warped pay to win idea.

 

5.  If these points above aren't enough, you need a good reason to why a prime weapon; definition being "of the best possible quality", would only support 1/8th ammo.

 

6. ammo isn't stored in the gun, it's stored on your person, can you explain why suddenly your warframe is unable to hold as much ammo because you have a prime.

 

and finally

 

7. Stuff like this only boosts the overwhelming presence of carrier, fix one problem create another.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Wehe

[seren77]

Ive ran out of ammo plenty of times in this game, take an unranked bow into lvl20+ content and some twin vipers, im pretty sure im not the only that runs ammo mutation on soma either. Ranking up my synapse it runs out of ammo every mission.

 

who cares about penta and ogris, they are dangerous to solo with thats penalty enough.

[fatpig84]

Make sense for Ogris and the Penta.

But soma that shoots ball bearings only have 360 ammo seems weird o.0

[Hyunsai]

Also why 180 for Boltor PRIME and 700 for normal Boltor? Do you realize that Primes aren't that much better than their non-primed counterparts?

 

I honestly laughed hard. Some Primes are indeed not that much better, but to take the Boltor Prime example...

 

 

------------------------------------------------

Anyway, some of the best weapons already got hard ammo management like the Soma or the Wraith Twin Vipers.

 

Others could have infinite ammo it wouldn't change a thing, like Penta, Ogris, Detron, Brakk... Those weapons don't care, I honestly NEVER had to worry about ammo even in the most extreme 50+ minutes T3 defense or survival.

 

Edited March 14, 2014 by Hyunsai

[NDroid]

While the ammo system could use a rework and some weapons should have ammo pool sizes that are more fitting for their characteristics (Penta, Vipers, etc) I don't agree with the idea of limiting pool sizes simply because a weapon is powerful. Giving automatic weapons like the Soma or the Boltor Prime a limited amount of ammo will just make using them less fun, it's not a good way of achieving "balance". Besides, I have no problem with certain weapons being inherently more powerful than others and neither does DE based on their own comments from one of the livestreams.

Edited March 14, 2014 by NDroid

[notionphil]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

Any of you who are familiar with my posts know that my ideas are large-scale concepts to be taken in as general a sense as possible, and any numbers therein are for example purposes only. I leave numerical balance to the guys w the spreadsheets like got_faust and volt_cruelerz.

 

Beyond the numbers, there are a number of overall points which keep coming up, and they are fair points.

 

-----------------------

 

Poster: Running out of ammo is not fun. This system would remove fun from the game, by making us run out of ammo.

 

Phil: Right now, the top x% of weapons in the game are more powerful than all of the actual abilities in the game. The same way that someone might propose a cooldown for the most powerful ults, I am essentially proposing a cooldown for the most powerful weapons. I relate it to a cooldown because I also propose you can stop and regen ammo quickly with a single restore.

 

So, I can certainly agree that a cooldown is less fun than no cooldown. But I also believe cooldown is important because it challenges you to work with all of your tools, not just the best one.

 

----------------------

 

 

Poster: But if we can regen 100% of ammo by popping a team restore, then your OP is moot!

 

Phil: A cooldown of sorts is a small offset, I agree. However some people will certainly prefer to use an ammo mod, or a mutation mod so that they don't have to have any cooldown at all.

 

My goal isn't to make the uber weapons useless; its to give the non-uber weapons an advantage in flexibility, which can be replicated by the uber weapons at the cost of a mod slot.

 

 

 

---------------------------------------

 

 

 

Poster: But it sounds like you want to nerf gameplay to a crawl, phil!

 

Phil: My lack of detail in the OP, and drastic title have betrayed me.

 

As I have stated a few times in the thread, I only find about 10 or so weapons above the power curve for their tier. I think there are many more weapons which are below the power curve for their tier, and would get ammo buffs.

 

Yes, I do believe that for those weapons which are very powerful for their tier, a 'cooldown' of sorts is reasonable, unless the user wants to apply an ammo mod, which would bring their weapon closer to their tier's power.

 

-----------------------------

 

Poster: Phil, I normally enjoy/love your posts, but this one kinda/f$**$g stinks.

 

Phil: Restrictions and nerfs are always unpopular - I wouldn't 'enjoy' this idea either.

There are SOOO many other, better ways to make all weapons of a similar tier viable, which I'd prefer over this. Consider this a bandaid, or a hail mary.

 

However, the majority of the time, DE chooses to widely ignore those methods and we end up with everyone (who has access) using the same 10 weapons 90% of the time. Thus I am suggesting a simple method which can be applied pro-actively and retro-actively, and more importantly - get the convo going about weapon balance not just being DPS.

 

It's really a shame, and I honestly feel like the monotony and lack of choice is going to eventually bore you far more than simply having to think about ammo for 10 weapons.

 

One far better way is to build unique quirks into weapons, which DE has been doing very, very well recently. Phage, Stug and Castanas are all far above their power for their tier....but they come with very clever built in limitations which mitigate that pure power. I'd prefer that over this. However, that post is not going to get a conversation going.

 

 

-----------------------

 

Poster: Well, the one thing I DO agree with is that ammo needs a rework in general and things like the Penta....

 

Phil: Yes, we're on the same page - ammo needs a rework in general. Twin Vipers(+)? Penta(-)? Supra(+)? Gorgon(+) Ogris(-) I'm looking @ you.

 

----------------------------

 

Poster: So if you don't even 'like' this idea yourself, why post it?

 

Phil: Because this community, and DE need to have a conversation about weapon balance, and understand that balance is MORE than just the DPS and TTK of a weapon. It's the weapon's ease of use, it's flexibility, how often it can be brought to bear etc. The meta of balance are more interesting and more important to balance on than the hard DPS numbers.

 

If every weapon did the same DPS, the game would be even more monotonous than if we all used 10 weapons!

 

A handful of posters in this thread understand the point (and why I kept the thread intentionally vague), while many others have the knee jerk reaction that 'this idea is not fun'. So, this probably could have been done more successfully, but then, it's likely no one would have read it :)

Edited March 14, 2014 by notionphil

[Wehe]

And not a single thing I said was adressed, what else is new.

 

Until you can explain why a gun that uses identical bullets to its non prime version can suddenly only support a lower amount of ammo even though the ammo is kept on your person, this idea will NEVER succeed. It defies logic on a scale that's too much to overlook.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Wehe

[notionphil]

No offense intended...lots of replies. But since you asked personally...and I am off work today and yesterday :)

 

My replies in your text:

 

I don't use the soma or the boltor prime or the huge hyped weapons, even so this is a terrible idea for the following reasons
-you should try to use them, and see how much more powerful they are than others in their tier. I have essentially all gear in game - I'm not asking for 'nerfs' bc I don't have stuff, but bc I do, and I know how much better it is than other other things I have.

 

1. Orokin cell drop rates have been nerfed to the ground, a lot of these prime weapons are hard to get at as it is and are even harder now, they do not need such a drastic nerf.
 

Phil: difficulty of obtaining is related to 'tier', sure. However, ammo constraint isn't a massive nerf as you just stated below.

 

2. ammo mutation auras are a thing, in any premade group people don't run 4 energy siphons anyway.

Phil: I agree, again, ammo isnt a massive nerf. That's kind of my point.
 

3. People can just hoard ammo recovery drops from the shop and use them in game.

Phil: yes, again, same. They should and will. The goal is for ammo to act as a 'cooldown' for select weapons which are above power for their tier. Not so they run out of ammo and can never play again.

 

4. point 3 causes these guns to be more viable to the people who have credit boosters and large amounts of credits, you are supporting some kind of warped pay to win idea.

Phil: This is an unrealistic point. The cost of ammo restores is very low, and the resources used are plentiful.

If you want to constantly use the most powerful weapons for their tier, and have them available at every second, a small resource cost is reasonable IMO.

 

5.  If these points above aren't enough, you need a good reason to why a prime weapon; definition being "of the best possible quality", would only support 1/8th ammo.

Phil: Primes were created by and for the Orokin - and the Orokin don't miss. They are experts. Why do sniper rifles not have ammo belts? They expect to kill on the first shot.

 

6. ammo isn't stored in the gun, it's stored on your person, can you explain why suddenly your warframe is unable to hold as much ammo because you have a prime.

Phil: I can make a lore based reason up, but why? Why can an Ogris hold 500 rockets but a sniper only 70 bullets? Because videogame.
 

and finally

 

7. Stuff like this only boosts the overwhelming presence of carrier, fix one problem create another.

 

Phil: I believe that Carriers presence is far less overwhelming than Soma, Penta, Stugg, Ogris, Brakk, etc.

[oololz]

But yet none will use the ""weak/underpowered""(double quotes for this) weapons, no matter how much ammo they got. Why use a weapon with 1000 max ammo if it'll take 100 bullets to kill something, while theres one with 100 max ammo that can do it for 10?

 

I'd suggest the ammo pickup to be based on the clip size, not a static nor based on max ammo. For example, gorgon would get 30 per pickup, and penta get 3. But yet it won't make the said weak stuff be attractive.

[LukeAura]

I'd suggest the ammo pickup to be based on the clip size, not a static nor based on max ammo. For example, gorgon would get 30 per pickup, and penta get 3. But yet it won't make the said weak stuff be attractive.

It won't cover every weapon, and it'll further worsen the disparity between dual and single variant pistols. But it's certainly a start, and a good idea.

Although it wouldn't make much sense, you could use reload speed, base damage, and/or fire rate as modifiers on top to decrease/increase the pick up. As damage, clip size, reload time and fire rate tend to compensate for each other or a weaker one, and it would at least help account for the Dual-Single disparity. Magazine size would be the primary factor, but these small modifiers could help keep balance in line.

Duals with double reload get less from their reload bonus. While singles with quick reloads, get a larger ammo bonus. 

 

[notionphil]

But yet none will use the ""weak/underpowered""(double quotes for this) weapons, no matter how much ammo they got. Why use a weapon with 1000 max ammo if it'll take 100 bullets to kill something, while theres one with 100 max ammo that can do it for 10?

 

If that were true, you'd see a lot more Twin Vipers Wraith around because it has higher DPS than many secondary guns (not shotties/or stugs).

 

However, ppl don't overuse it like the Soma/Penta because it has a built in flexibility restriction - lack of ammo cap.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

i agree in general with nerfing the ammo pools of some weapons, but buffed ammo pools won't make bad weapons useable, a gorgon will run out of ammo even with a 1k ammo pool. if they go down that route they need to change the amount of ammo you pick up for each weapon too, gorgon/supra for example could pick up 100% more ammo to keep your ammo pool up in the long run. penta on the other hand could end up having 20% effective ammo pickup, resulting in 4 ammo per pickup. could even be a new stat, call it ammo efficiency and make it a multiplier visible in the ui. 

Edited March 14, 2014 by MortalSin

[notionphil]

 

I'd suggest the ammo pickup to be based on the clip size, not a static nor based on max ammo. For example, gorgon would get 30 per pickup, and penta get 3. But yet it won't make the said weak stuff be attractive.

 

+

 

i agree in general with nerfing the ammo pools of some weapons, but buffed ammo pools won't make bad weapons useable, a gorgon will run out of ammo even with a 1k ammo pool. if they go down that route they need to change the amount of ammo you pick up for each weapon too, gorgon/supra for example could pick up 100% more ammo to keep your ammo pool up in the long run. penta on the other hand could end up having 20% effective ammo pickup, resulting in 4 ammo per pickup. could even be a new stat, call it ammo efficiency and make it a multiplier visible in the ui. 

 

This is a great idea.