How Do You Want To See Shotguns Changed? Community Buffs And Suggestions

[Noble_Cactus]

A few weeks ago, threads started cropping up in the Weapons subforums that raised an important issue: shotguns in their current state are very weak. The game's numerous assault rifles not only outperform shotguns at long range, but short and mid-range as well. They tread upon the sacred territory of the shotgun and displace their rightful owners. This issue has become all the more apparent recently with the introduction of the Boltor Prime, which, with the right mods, essentially becomes a bolt-spewing shotgun with no falloff.

 

Livestream 24 acknowledged that shotguns are in the dumps. From last week's Hot Topics thread:

 

 

Shotguns & Balance

We have the feedback and reports on Shotguns, and this will be discussed with dev as time permits. We’d like to solve potential issues, so please report as constructively as possible.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/191300-march-7th-community-hot-topics/?p=2227361#entry2227361

 

Shotguns users could at least breathe a little easier knowing that their concerns had been heard. Changes might not come soon, but they would come.

 

Yet we never followed up on that feedback.

 

So now is the time to provide that feedback! What would the community like to see changed to shotguns? What could unleash their full potential? For the sake of our discussion, we can ignore the Phage because despite using shotgun mods, it behaves nothing like a shotgun. It's also not hindered by the restrictions on other shotguns.

 

I think it'd help to list the two major issues with shotties:

 

1. Falloff - We all know why this was changed: Hek sniping. And to an extent,

. But we've come a long way since then, and everyone's favorite power creep has made falloff seem more and more archaic. As mentioned above, this is especially true with weapons like the Boltor Prime, who perform better than shotguns at all ranges. Shoot at something past 20m with a shotgun and you'll think you were firing pool noodles. Shoot at something at close range that's above Lv40 and you'll wonder why you weren't just using a Synapse/Soma/etc. Shotguns no longer perform adequately on their home turf.

 

So how can we remedy this? We can remove falloff entirely. Let the spread of the pellets reduce their damage at long range. There's no need to muzzle the Hek anymore now that we have the weapons mentioned above. Or since it's unlikely that DE would just go back entirely on that decision, maybe we can extend the falloff cap to 40m or so. Either way, shotguns wouldn't threaten the position of Soma and Friends for overall DPS. But they would boast powerful spike damage at more flexible ranges, especially in conjunction with the next change.

 

Note: The Detron, the Drakgoon, and I believe the Bronco Prime series does not suffer from falloff. Let's keep it that way and bring the others up to par.

 

2. Proc Chance - Shotgun proc chances were nerfed in a U12 hotfix, and they were nerfed hard. Instead of the old algorithm where the weapon's listed status chance was applied to each pellet, the listed status chance is now divided among each pellet. The actual formula is shown below:

 

1-(1-status chance per projectile)^(number of projectiles)

 

This thread goes into better detail than I could regarding shotgun proc chance: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/187723-my-72-status-proc-tigris-does-not-proc-72-of-the-time/

 

Neutered proc chance drastically reduces the amount of damage shotguns deal overall since procs deal extra damage (if anyone has an update on this, let me know):

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/146952-on-the-113-resistance-changes/#entry1741032

 

EDIT: Apparently, this is not the case: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/190665-shotguns-incredibly-lackluster-now/page-3

 

Still, you are losing potential utility, especially with Blast procs.

 

And from an aesthetic point of view, infrequent procs just make shotguns feel really underwhelming. Hearing those constant Viral and Slash procs on a Drakgoon is what made it so immensely satisfying to use.

 

The change to proc chances came out of the blue, and they felt completely unnecessary. Perhaps there is some consensus we as a community can reach for what a 'proper' proc chance would be?

 

~

 

Some other changes that aren't necessary, but would help make shotguns more fun to use:

 

* Improved visual feedback - This is actually an issue with most weapons. Killing enemies just isn't as fun as it could be because they don't respond to what you'd think they would do. In this case, when you kill something with a shotgun, it just slumps over. That's no fun, seeing as you're blasting a bunch of pellets in the enemy's face. You'd expect their corpse to go flying back a bit. Not to the level of the bows and the nail guns that pin enemies to walls, but at least some visual confirmation that yes, you are using a powerful weapon. I was leveling an old Strun I had in my inventory last night and it felt like I was throwing pebbles at my foes. It made the grind much more tedious than it would have with something like a Dread or a Boltor.

 

* More pellets (visually) - There have been several threads on this, actually. When you fire a shotgun, it doesn't seem to display the true amount of pellets being fired. Apparently this was changed to prevent slowdown and framerate issues. I question how other games are able to handle the load of multiple pellets, then. If this issue is unavoidable, then I suppose there's nothing that can be done. Does anyone else have an idea?

 

Go ahead and list what you think should be done to shotguns. We're not all going to agree with each other, but by being constructive, we can help reach solutions as a community. Moreover, we're letting DE know that we are still concerned about shotguns. Bows were only changed because their fans put constant pressure on DE to change them. We can't let this issue be swept under the rug, like so many others in this game.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Archistopheles]

The Return of Sniper-Hek

[notionphil]

In general:

 

Shotguns need falloff, but also bonus damage when in close range.

 

+25% damage within 5m, +15% within 10m, 0 within 15m....

 

Shotguns should have +50% status chance within 5m, +25% status within 10m.

 

Some like the phage, drakgoon may not apply 100%.

[LukeAura]

One of the major problems is that the TTK of most weapons is so high in close ranges that even though shotguns can slightly edge them out, when they reach medium to long range rifles stay consistent, while shotguns drop dramatically. 

For Procc changes I think we need to wait until we agree upon the basic damage system, spread/fall off/damge before we talk about it. Although it'll definitely need reworking eventually. 

I'd say one of the things that must be done is to bump falloffs minimum damage point. Nothing can be the king of any specific range when Rifles/Pistols function as powerfully as they do at all ranges right now. Trying to turn Shotguns in to "close range kings" is almost a pointless endeavor. Destroying the world twice over doesn't accomplish anything more than destroying it once. They need to function more efficiently over the longer distances. 

Also since the Hek did recently get a buff in its falloff categories we have close to the old problem again, but with every other Shotgun being worse off for it. 

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

In general:

 

Shotguns need falloff, but also bonus damage when in close range.

 

+25% damage within 5m, +15% within 10m, 0 within 15m....

 

Shotguns should have +50% status chance within 5m, +25% status within 10m.

 

Some like the phage, drakgoon may not apply 100%.

this.

 

also i would add a specific mod (like thunderbolt for bows) thats give you a 100% chance, if you fire at close range (lets say 5 m), to knockdown enemies, giving the shotguns the unique ability to do some CC,

 

the shotguns needs to be unique at close range, somehow.

[Pythadragon]

I would like to followup on procs dealing damage as referenced in the 11.3 patch notes.

 

This does not appear to be the case (version 12.4.5).  Here are two shots one after another with a latron prime. The first shot is a corrosive proc, the second one is a normal one. My sentinel weapon is disabled to not interfere with the testing.

 

The first shot deals 104 damage, the second, 117. I expected the second shot to deal more damage due to the reduced armor corrosive proc, but the corrosive proc shot did not deal significantly more damage than the normal, implying no increased damage.  This also appears to be the case looking at the health bar.

 

 

 

[NitroMidgets]

They could give them a default amount of stun to enemies if within a certain distance. Hell a knock-down chance would be interesting. It would make it more viable given the rate of fire of some of the weapons.

 

I agree that either way they do need some sort of once over from DE to make them more viable.

[Pythadragon]

RE: procs in general->

 

This isn't gameplay related, but I suggest that status effect in the UI screen should show the "expected number of procs per volley", rather than the current "probability of at least 1 proc per volley" to give a more useful number to work with.

 

I crunched the math for shotgun multishot procs (this applies to everything that shoots multiple bullets per volley due to multishot such as rifles, pistols ect.) over here for anyone wanting a more concise and detailed explanation rather than sifting through an entire thread.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/194955-status-chance-should-be-showing-a-different-number-multishot-math/

Edited March 13, 2014 by Pythadragon

[FableTale]

 

* Improved visual feedback - This is actually an issue with most weapons. Killing enemies just isn't as fun as it could be because they don't respond to what you'd think they would do. In this case, when you kill something with a shotgun, it just slumps over. That's no fun, seeing as you're blasting a bunch of pellets in the enemy's face. You'd expect their corpse to go flying back a bit. Not to the level of the bows and the nail guns that pin enemies to walls, but at least some visual confirmation that yes, you are using a powerful weapon. I was leveling an old Strun I had in my inventory last night and it felt like I was throwing pebbles at my foes. It made the grind much more tedious than it would have with something like a Dread or a Boltor.

Beside that lack of damage of shotguns, the actual feel of them is rather weak. It's just as you said whenever I am shooting enemies I get no reaction out of them it's just like that; throwing pebbles at them.

 

They should at least flail or be staggered for each time you shoot them. It will also be a great weapon for interrupting the enemies movement too.

[konfetarius]

Honestly, I see no reason why shotguns shouldn't be reworked to simply have two firing modes.

 

1. Regular shots = wide cone.

2. Zoom shots = tight cone.

 

"Shotgun sniping" is a joke of an excuse. Many weapons are dramatically deadlier at close range despite being primarily "medium-long range weapons" because:

A. Less shots miss.

B. More headshots.

C. Heavy Caliber.

 

Give shotguns a different "weapon class downside." Their advantage - high efficiency, high damage per shot, option to spread to kill multiple weaker enemies per shot. Their downside can be above average reload time relative to other primaries. Keep DPS simply competitive with other guns. Keep shotguns fun.

Edited March 13, 2014 by konfetarius

[Archistopheles]

The first shot deals 104 damage, the second, 117. I expected the second shot to deal more damage due to the reduced armor corrosive proc, but the corrosive proc shot did not deal significantly more damage than the normal, implying no increased damage.  This also appears to be the case looking at the health bar.

 

Side note: Corrosive's main feature is to lower armor, yet equipping weapons with Radiation yields better results vs Grineer, while Corrosive is better suited for Infested Ancients.

 

This does not feel like it's working as intended.

[yarash2110]

This thread deservs more 1+, shotguns should be viable again, so what if hek is a bit snipey, the spread was nerfed and there are a lot of better weapons that aren't game breaking, every sentence in this thread is correct, If de wants to keep shotguns as an ingame weapon this has to be done

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

In general:

 

Shotguns need falloff, but also bonus damage when in close range.

 

+25% damage within 5m, +15% within 10m, 0 within 15m....

 

Shotguns should have +50% status chance within 5m, +25% status within 10m.

 

Some like the phage, drakgoon may not apply 100%.

This, so this this, seriously, there shouldnt even be further discussion, if there is fall off there is point blank bonus.Or just generally buff the shotties damage.

[GetAtMeMods]

Yes to more rewards for getting closer/playing riskier.

[Wehe]

I want to see rewards for going into peoples face and shooting at close range with a shotgun, I should not be doing as much or less an inch from someones face than someone can do with a typical soma/boltor prime/any damn rifle in the game because shotguns are really that bad at this point.

 

Seriously what are they so afraid of? Start slow, buff areas bit by bit, preferably the base damage of each gun and give point blank 10 ranks.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Wehe