Notice To All Tenno: Grineer Army Change! [Prepare For Sarcasm]

[SpiderWaifu]

Our operatives have discovered that the head of the Grineer Military have decided to retire all of their infantry and soldiers. This includes any of their elites that are being hunted and killed constantly because we like to 'farm.'

To replace all of their army, every man is being replaced with two of the smaller, quicker, more efficient to build and far more effective Grinders. Heavy units are being replaced with 7 Grinders for each one lost. Elites/ Bosses will be replaced with 20 Grinders. We forsee that this will cause the Grineer Economy to explode, technology will improve at a rapid rate and scientists will return the Grineer to their natural state.

Guns may be attached to Grinders if the need arises. These guns will shoot Toxic Ancients from them as opposed to bullets.

Now that my satire is done...

In all seriousness. Grinders are more effective than Grineers soldiers because they're smaller, quicker, have stronger armor [but less hp] stagger on contact, and CANNOT BE SLOWED.That right there is my main source of complaining. WHY CANT THEY BE SLOWED DOWN WITH FROST POWERS/ FREEZE MODS?

WHY IS THE MELEE SLAM SO INEFFECTIVE AGAINST EVERYTHING, INCLUDING GRINDERS? WHY DO WE NOT HAVE A LOT OF RADIAL AOE APART FROM HIGH-COST ENERGY POWERS.

I'm going to keep bringing this up with more and more clever intros.

inb4: jump on boxes.

Abusing pathing is not a solution.

[novac3721]

Maybe you should use the block button...Oh wait you can only block bullets -.-

Seriously, blocking should be super effective against all forms of melee, including grinders.

[SpiderWaifu]

Maybe you should use the block button...Oh wait you can only block bullets -.-

Seriously, blocking should be super effective against all forms of melee, including grinders.

Blocking doesn't kill things either.

[Zogg]

nice intro ^^

I don't have too much problems with the design but being swarmed by 4-6 of em is more then a pain in the butt

Imo there needs to be a limit how many can appear max in the level at the same time and a cooldown for their attack/stagger-effect of the attack.

Being able to slow them with ice would also be nice^^

[Notso]

Nothing wrong with grinders. They're super easy to hit.

[novac3721]

@Spider

What I have in mind is a parry system. If you hit block right as an enemy tries to melee you, or a grinder tries to ram you, you perform a powerful parry attack, similar to a stealth kill. Against a grinder, the parry would be a side-step followed by slicing the little bugger in half.

[SpiderWaifu]

@Spider

What I have in mind is a parry system. If you hit block right as an enemy tries to melee you, or a grinder tries to ram you, you perform a powerful parry attack, similar to a stealth kill. Against a grinder, the parry would be a side-step followed by slicing the little bugger in half.

Sounds delicious. I primarily use melee, so I'd enjoy that.

[TinFoilMkIV]

or a darksouls style parry where it would just interrupt the enemy attack and stagger them, or for grinders deflect them and leave them imobilized for a moment before they start up again.

[Aggh]

Really? When grinders pop up at you it's pretty easy to melee them. And that's only if you don't take the time using an aoe skill or kill them wen they come at you in a straight line. People just don't like getting stunned even though it's their own fault.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[TinFoilMkIV]

personally I don't particularly hate grinders, they can be annoying but I don't mind em too much. Generally they can be dealt with if you learn appropriate tactics (not including hiding on boxes), however I would say that chain stunning in generally needs a look at yet, and if that were fixed then I don't think people would have much of a legitimate reason to complain about them too much.

[MJ12]

Really? When grinders pop up at you it's pretty easy to melee them. And that's only if you don't take the time using an aoe skill or kill them wen they come at you in a straight line. People just don't like getting stunned even though it's their own fault.

Nobody likes them because they can come in multiples, have no real charge-up, have a pretty tight turning circle, and basically if there's more than one of them and you get stunned at any moment you have a very real chance of being put into stunlock.

That, and they cheat. Like Grineer Commanders ,they are immune to any incapacitating effects which might make them more tolerable. You can't knock them down. You can't stagger them. You can't freeze them.

[Aggh]

Nobody likes them because they can come in multiples, have no real charge-up, have a pretty tight turning circle, and basically if there's more than one of them and you get stunned at any moment you have a very real chance of being put into stunlock.

That, and they cheat. Like Grineer Commanders ,they are immune to any incapacitating effects which might make them more tolerable. You can't knock them down. You can't stagger them. You can't freeze them.

Don't get caught then. As soon as you see them lead them to a choke point and shoot them. Really open areas are even better since when they miss, they tend to put a lot of distance between them and you and are even easier to as they come straight at you. They're stupidly predictable and only take a couple hits to kill.

It's a rolling ball. What are you expecting to knock down? I'll admit they should be affected by freezing, but by the time you've hit them with one shot, you prolly shouldn't have troulbe landing another one or two hits needed to kill.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[TinFoilMkIV]

Don't get caught then. As soon as you see them lead them to a choke point and shoot them. Really open areas are even better since when they miss, they tend to put a lot of distance between them and you and are even easier to as they come straight at you. They're stupidly predictable and only take a couple hits to kill.

It's a rolling ball. What are you expecting to knock down? I'll admit they should be affected by freezing, but by the time you've hit them with one shot, you prolly shouldn't have troulbe landing another one or two hits needed to kill.

Not to say you don't have entirely valid points, but I don't think the "well just don't get hit" argument is really valid for game balance discussion. I mean we could make all corpus beam weapons do 5000 damage a hit and it would be okay since they have travel time and you can just "not get hit" right?

But anwyays, it seems like many people have issues with grinders, some of which are due to people not learning how to deal with them appropriately and/or just don't want to learn new tactics, but there are some valid arguments. I don't want to see grinders nerfed into the ground (which I don't think DE will do) but they could stand to have some tweaking.

Also yes, if you can shoot a grinder with an ice elemental shot you should be able to finish it easily, but as far as powers go, it is really annoying to use an ability that can completely incapacitate any enemy in the game except grinders.

Edited March 30, 2013 by TinFoilMkIV

[Aggh]

Not to say you don't have entirely valid points, but I don't think the "well just don't get hit" argument is really valid for game balance discussion. I mean we could make all corpus beam weapons do 5000 damage a hit and it would be okay since they have travel time and you can just "not get hit" right?

But anwyays, it seems like many people have issues with grinders, some of which are due to people not learning how to deal with them appropriately and/or just don't want to learn new tactics, but there are some valid arguments. I don't want to see grinders nerfed into the ground (which I don't think DE will do) but they could stand to have some tweaking.

Also yes, if you can shoot a grinder with an ice elemental shot you should be able to finish it easily, but as far as powers go, it is really annoying to use an ability that can completely incapacitate any enemy in the game except grinders.

Corpus beam weapons aren't melee attacks, you actually have to let the grinder get near you and then when it pops up to attack you, you need to be unable to shoot or melee it. Why not complain about infested leapers while you're at it? People just can't deal with a slightly smaller target is all and don't like stun attacks. Thus RAGE NERF NOW.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[TinFoilMkIV]

Again, it wasn't to say you don't have valid points, if you want to discuss how many options and how easily you can just "not get hit" by grinders I'm all for it, but saying "just don't get, hit problem solved" is not terribly helpfull feedback. And yea, there is an excessive ammount of grinder hate from people who are basically just doing it wrong and don't want to be bothered to change how they play, but there are also legitimate complaints among those too.

[Aggh]

Again, it wasn't to say you don't have valid points, if you want to discuss how many options and how easily you can just "not get hit" by grinders I'm all for it, but saying "just don't get, hit problem solved" is not terribly helpfull feedback. And yea, there is an excessive ammount of grinder hate from people who are basically just doing it wrong and don't want to be bothered to change how they play, but there are also legitimate complaints among those too.

If there are piles of ways to avoid them and they're easy to kill, why on earth do they need a nerf?

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[sambarpowder]

Game's built from the base up around chain stuns, someone from DE has a taser fetish or something.

[DKWK]

Game's built from the base up around chain stuns, someone from DE has a taser fetish or something.

lol well said ;) sometimes I think like that to

[TinFoilMkIV]

If there are piles of ways to avoid them and they're easy to kill, why on earth do they need a nerf?

Easy for you and me to avoid is not necessarily easy for most of the player base.

Also sometimes really obvious things that should be easy to dodge still work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zd7T5Don5s\

And screwing up once to an "easy" enemy should not result in potential chainstunlock for massive damage. That's not particularly good balance in my opinion.

[MJ12]

Don't get caught then. As soon as you see them lead them to a choke point and shoot them. Really open areas are even better since when they miss, they tend to put a lot of distance between them and you and are even easier to as they come straight at you. They're stupidly predictable and only take a couple hits to kill.

In an open area they don't get stuck, which means they do really tight chainstun circles and you get to play the "abort the mission or die to stunlock" game. Also, if I have to drop everything and completely change my playstyle to deal with a single enemy appearing that means the enemy balance is, to put it mildly, completely and utterly borked.

Now maybe you think that's fair. But most people don't. Also, this assumes you're playing with sound (because Grinders are actually pretty hard to see visually) and sometimes you aren't. Finally, Grinders aren't exactly fun enemies. They don't do anything except create chainstuns. They are literally the most useless enemy in the Grineer arsenal, and have no reason to exist save for reducing the fun of fighting Grineer. According to you, they aren't particularly challenging.

So they fail at that unless you're "not very good at the game" in which case they create frustration and make you leave. So remind me why they're here again?

It's a rolling ball. What are you expecting to knock down? I'll admit they should be affected by freezing, but by the time you've hit them with one shot, you prolly shouldn't have troulbe landing another one or two hits needed to kill.

I'm expecting that the moves which I've learned create breathing room (such as jump melee knockdowns) because they're clearly intended to do that will actually, you know, create breathing room. Like them pausing in their tracks for a few seconds so I can shoot them more easily. This isn't particularly unfair.

[Aggh]

In an open area they don't get stuck, which means they do really tight chainstun circles and you get to play the "abort the mission or die to stunlock" game. Also, if I have to drop everything and completely change my playstyle to deal with a single enemy appearing that means the enemy balance is, to put it mildly, completely and utterly borked.

Lol wut? The best games always have you deal with different enemies differently.

Now maybe you think that's fair. But most people don't. Also, this assumes you're playing with sound (because Grinders are actually pretty hard to see visually) and sometimes you aren't. Finally, Grinders aren't exactly fun enemies. They don't do anything except create chainstuns. They are literally the most useless enemy in the Grineer arsenal, and have no reason to exist save for reducing the fun of fighting Grineer. According to you, they aren't particularly challenging.

So they fail at that unless you're "not very good at the game" in which case they create frustration and make you leave. So remind me why they're here again?

They provide variety to grineer attacks and visual profiles and give the grineer another melee unit, which they actually need since the other melee units are even easier to deal with and having every single unit have ranged attack ability wouldn't be terribly blanaced

I'm expecting that the moves which I've learned create breathing room (such as jump melee knockdowns) because they're clearly intended to do that will actually, you know, create breathing room. Like them pausing in their tracks for a few seconds so I can shoot them more easily. This isn't particularly unfair.

So I guess none of the bosses should be immune to knock downs either. It's a low hp unit whose only advantages are that it's a bit smaller a bit faster and has a short range stun attack. Being immune to people pressing jump and e doesn't exactly make it OP. It just means you'll have to rely on aim and reaction time instead of relying on a short tange aoe melee attack.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[SpiderWaifu]

Avoiding damage is a very broad term. Rolling doesn't provide invuln frames. Sidestepping works, but against multiple Grinders it's bad. Especially when there's other enemies.

Not getting hit isn't a different tactic. It's what most people try to do when fighting anything.

You've never mentioned any of these 'tactics' in your posts. You're more than welcome to explain what they are. Like I said, not getting hit is a very broad tactic.

Aiming your shots and timing it right? You're welcome to try to hit Grinders with a single shot, low fire rate weapon reliably.

The main problems are - freeze doesn't effect.

Melee slams are weak, and otherwise there's a lack of decent radial aoe that's worth it.

[MJ12]

Lol wut? The best games always have you deal with different enemies differently.

Yes, different enemies differently. Not the same thing as "if a certain enemy shows up throw everything you learned out the window and play the game in an entirely different way". There is no enemy in Devil May Cry, for example, which when it shows up tells you "sorry, you can't play the game using melee combos. You have to stay away from it and shoot it to death." There are differences in specifics, enemies in 'the best games' never make you do an entire 180 and ignore core game mechanics/thematics.

Warframe is a game about aggressive forward movement. Guys like you denigrate that as "w + m1" but that's simultaneously unfair and silly. Grinders force you to run away looking like a ninny with a phobia of bowling balls, find a tight corner, and camp until you kill them because they're immune to the tools given to you to allow aggressive forward movement despite massive enemy numbers and counter melee swarms in general.

They provide variety to grineer attacks and visual profiles and give the grineer another melee unit, which they actually need since the other melee units are even easier to deal with and having every single unit have ranged attack ability wouldn't be terribly blanaced

Yes, Grineer melee combatants are easy to kill (and probably should get higher health/armor anyways). That's because the Grineer aren't melee-focused. So why should they get an overpowered melee unit immune to the typical melee counters when the only reason they have melee units is to flush guys out of cover (something which could be, as said before, done infinitely better by a guy who shoots medium-damage grenades at a good clip. A grineer with an automatic grenade launcher would be a pretty useful enemy.)

Anyways, providing 'variety' is nice but they don't provide anything. They just roll around and look dumb. They're not good-looking enemies. They look and act absurd, which is a huge problem. Having a bunny rabbit that hits you with an oversized hammer would add variety to the Grineer appearances and attacks but I think everyone would agree that nobody wants that.

So I guess none of the bosses should be immune to knock downs either. It's a low hp unit whose only advantages are that it's a bit smaller a bit faster and has a short range stun attack. Being immune to people pressing jump and e doesn't exactly make it OP. It just means you'll have to rely on aim and reaction time instead of relying on a short tange aoe melee attack.

The fact that they made the bosses immune to knockdowns actually proves my point. If they realized how stupid and cheesy chainstunning enemies is, they should have realized that creating even the theoretical risk of stunlock is stupid and cheesy at the same time. And yes, being immune to people pressing jump and E makes it OP because that's exactly what jump-melee is intended to counter: Fast melee swarmers. Sorry, being immune to its own hard counter does, in fact, make it OP no matter what you pretend.

It's not like having to jump-melee clear Grinders doesn't make them useful already. They force you to stop shooting the guys with tons of DPS to deal with the Grinders and this is more than enough.

[Aggh]

Yes, different enemies differently. Not the same thing as "if a certain enemy shows up throw everything you learned out the window and play the game in an entirely different way". There is no enemy in Devil May Cry, for example, which when it shows up tells you "sorry, you can't play the game using melee combos. You have to stay away from it and shoot it to death." There are differences in specifics, enemies in 'the best games' never make you do an entire 180 and ignore core game mechanics/thematics.

Warframe is a game about aggressive forward movement. Guys like you denigrate that as "w + m1" but that's simultaneously unfair and silly. Grinders force you to run away looking like a ninny with a phobia of bowling balls, find a tight corner, and camp until you kill them because they're immune to the tools given to you to allow aggressive forward movement despite massive enemy numbers and counter melee swarms in general.

So occasionally having to w+m1 or a+m1 means that the whole premise of the game is ruined? Gtfo. Nevermind that simply ignoring grinders and pushing forward in the level can be one of the most effective ways to deal with them lol.

Yes, Grineer melee combatants are easy to kill (and probably should get higher health/armor anyways). That's because the Grineer aren't melee-focused. So why should they get an overpowered melee unit immune to the typical melee counters when the only reason they have melee units is to flush guys out of cover (something which could be, as said before, done infinitely better by a guy who shoots medium-damage grenades at a good clip. A grineer with an automatic grenade launcher would be a pretty useful enemy.)

Anyways, providing 'variety' is nice but they don't provide anything. They just roll around and look dumb. They're not good-looking enemies. They look and act absurd, which is a huge problem. Having a bunny rabbit that hits you with an oversized hammer would add variety to the Grineer appearances and attacks but I think everyone would agree that nobody wants that.

It provides challenge. And means you have to play carefully. Having a unit that can stun as it's primary attack means you have to deal with them quickly or be at a major disadvantage because of how ranged units will likely have a line of sight on you. Luckily they have made them pretty easy to deal with and you're only really punished if you F*** up majorly.

The fact that they made the bosses immune to knockdowns actually proves my point. If they realized how stupid and cheesy chainstunning enemies is, they should have realized that creating even the theoretical risk of stunlock is stupid and cheesy at the same time. And yes, being immune to people pressing jump and E makes it OP because that's exactly what jump-melee is intended to counter: Fast melee swarmers. Sorry, being immune to its own hard counter does, in fact, make it OP no matter what you pretend.

It's not like having to jump-melee clear Grinders doesn't make them useful already. They force you to stop shooting the guys with tons of DPS to deal with the Grinders and this is more than enough.

Only bad players get chain stunned in this game. They've given you piles of tools to avoid and kill enemies that do this. Knock down is meant for knocking down enemies, not just melee swarmers. The fact that pretty much every non champion melee unit can be killed faster than it can be knocked down is a pretty good indicator of this. And aim is the best hard counter to grinders. I don't see anything wrong with that since this is a shooter.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Aggh

[MJ12]

So occasionally having to w+m1 or a+m1 means that the whole premise of the game is ruined? Gtfo. Nevermind that simply ignoring grinders and pushing forward in the level can be one of the most effective ways to deal with them lol.

A game about aggressive forward movement with an enemy that is best dealt with by hiding in a closet like a gigantic coward means that the enemy is terribly designed and should be removed, yes. Remind me of all the first person shooters with enemies immune to bullets that can only be killed by melee? Because that's about the same level of Bad Design we're talking about here. This is entirely independent of the frustration level Grinders create or the fact that the only reason I see players advocating they stay in is because "well only ~bad players~ get stunlocked so you know, screw everyone who doesn't live up to my exacting standards."

It provides challenge. And means you have to play carefully. Having a unit that can stun as it's primary attack means you have to deal with them quickly or be at a major disadvantage because of how ranged units will likely have a line of sight on you. Luckily they have made them pretty easy to deal with and you're only really punished if you F*** up majorly.

So 'if two of them spawn close to each other and one of them hits you' is your fault? Funny, I didn't know you could control spawning in this game. And no, it doesn't provide 'challenge' according to you because they're 'easy'. They provide annoyance. Now, I know people who fail to understand game design tend to confuse the two (this is why early games, where people were fumbling all the time to figure out good game mechanics, were full of bad and inherently frustrating game design like unwinnable situations, stunlocks, infinite combos, and so on) but clearly you think they're easy so they don't provide challenge.

Thus all they provide is frustration.

Only bad players get chain stunned in this game. They've given you piles of tools to avoid and kill enemies that do this. Knock down is meant for knocking down enemies, not just melee swarmers. The fact that pretty much every non champion melee unit can be killed faster than it can be knocked down is a pretty good indicator of this. And aim is the best hard counter to grinders. I don't see anything wrong with that since this is a shooter.

Yes, those piles of tools to avoid them including...

Jack. And squat. And squat just left town! There are no tools to avoid and kill enemies who chainstun/chain-disorient you by virtue of the fact that most of them are immune to literally everything which you might use to keep them away from you! Grineer Commanders? Immune to literally everything. Nervos? Basically impossible to hit. Grinders? Too tough to die in one hit from the weapons that are best at hitting them, too fast moving and small to be easily hit by the weapons that can kill them in one hit.

The literal only thing that can let you 'avoid' chainstun is the dodgeroll except... you can't do anything while dodgerolling. You can't use abilities. You can't attack. You can't deal damage. You claim 'only bad players suffer from stunlock in this game', which means that you think that 90+% of the playerbase is 'bad'. This is not a good argument nor is it a good balance point.

And you still keep claiming that this short-ranged point blank area of effect ability which stops enemies from moving or attacking for a short period of time is intended as... something other than a hard counter to melee swarms? Pull the other one. The fact that Grineer melee units are extremely easy to kill is a balance problem with them, not "jump knockdowns aren't meant to deal with melee units". And I do see something extremely wrong with the idea that the fun you have in the game should exclusively be measured by your ability to shoot fast-moving, small targets that are very low to the ground or have to exploit AI bugs/get stunlocked.

Because, FYI: You should not have to be extraordinarily good at shooters to be able to enjoy yourself.