Game Becoming To Much Of A "pay To Win" Type Game.

[ZAPTONE]

There are only three things that can only be acquired with Platinum: Cosmetics, Omni Ammo, Inventory Slots. Everything else can be played for.

actually, ive gotten omni ammo as a wave reward from defense missions

[thehungryguy]

you are given some platinum to start with, not much but enough to buy the warframe weapon slots you want

if you used it on ammo boxes, your $&*&*#(%&

if you don't have enough room in your weapon slots, sell some

same for warframes

want a new warframe? grind it out

Its not pay to win, its pay for shortcut

[neKroMancer]

If we aren't currently exposed to what the "end game" is, I'm not confident at all in DE to create it, have it be entirely different than how it is now, and balance it before the game needs to be released. If the end game isn't going to be grinding mods and BP's while waiting for a random catalyst alert to pop up, then what is? I don't see the game changing much in terms of goals from here to release.

There'll be one, I'm sure about it. Leave the game in this current state is a shame, don't you think?

[vieuxchat]

only be purchased with plat? It seems you havent even looked at the whole market. please. EVERY item is obtainable through playing. So please. Go and look at the whole market before making these kind of threads....

Blueprints are obtainable for almost every weapon/ frame for credits.... This thread is invalid

I think it's valid because of the time you need to get the low level weapons or a new frame. Maybe have a low price (in credits) for the first blueprint you purchase, then each blueprint would cost a higher amount.

World of tanks get it right : you can play a lot without needing there "gold" and you don't really see a difference in battle (only a slight one) with the premium tanks. And wargaming.net got enough cash to be able to prepare world of warplanes and world of warships.

So I think it's only a matter of balance.

Edited April 1, 2013 by vieuxchat

[krisp]

I have my gripes about DE's business model, but it's certainly not P2W.

[Venarge]

Catalysts instantly give you double the potency you have. The *only* facet of this game that everyone has to progress through is the RNG grind for mods and the credit sink for fusing them. Every other facet of the game you can buy, if you can buy things that mitigate most of the point of playing the game, it's pay2win. Yes, the act of playing the game is "fun", but the goal is to get the things I mentioned, and it's flat out not good game design to allow so much of these things to be buyable. You pay to have an advantage over other players, skipping grinds, having more potency, having higher potential potency, those are all advantages that hand you the goal of the game.

Saying "F2P games are like this because they have to be" isn't correct. There are plenty of F2P games and cash shops that don't function like this and still make money. If warframe's cash shop was entirely cosmetic or contained nothing but sidegrades that you could get in-game, it would still make money. You're not giving a real reason why the game to be designed like this, you're just saying "It is because it is", which is a bad argument.

As for your second point, I already said what the win condition is. I didn't say it was "being able to beat pluto with 4 people", I said that it was attaining the frames you want, with the weapons you want, and making them as stong as the system allows. I also said the *only* part of progression the game has that everyone has to participate in is the mod grind. Is that what we want? The entire game to be based around mod grinding that's RNG and has nothing to do with the level of the enemies we kill? As it is you can pay to get nearly everything you want in the game, after such a player gets those things they'll grind mods for a bit, get bored, and leave because they got what they wanted. They got the win condition, they attained all the progression there was for them to get, for that reason this is non sustainable as both a business model and a game design.

Ok only cosmetics. So you compare this with another game. There is the problem. This mmo was done. There was no further development process. No further ideas and hours of forum reading to find new ideas for further updates. We have new updates almost every 3 weeks. Can you tell that about this game with only cosmetics in cash shop? I dont think so.... And since all this stuff can be obtained through simple playing, this whole pay to win debate is simply annoying. I got 5 potatoes last week. Yeah, others might not have been that lucky, but the possibility is there. People come here and say. Oh this is pay to win or its unfair because I cant have all this stuff without a little bit of work. By the way. What would be the difference if we only had cosmetics? Do you think the warframes and weapons simply appear in your inventory? This whole grinding for new stuff is the fun. I finished nyx and had to farm almost 2 weeks for her parts. And now im super happy and excited that she is done in a few days. Whats the fun in simply getting something you want without any challenge.....

Edited April 1, 2013 by Venarge

[Venarge]

I think it's valid because of the time you need to get the low level weapons or a new frame. Maybe have a low price (in credits) for the first blueprint you purchase, then each blueprint would cost a higher amount.

World of tanks get it right : you can play a lot without needing there "gold" and you don't really see a difference in battle (only a slight one) with the premium tanks. And wargaming.net got enough cash to be able to prepare world of warplanes and world of warships.

So I think it's only a matter of balance.

blueprints cost only 15k ? And if you are a low level, you dont have anything else to waste your credits for. So I dont actually see your point. Besides that. New players should first max the first frame. Whats the point in having a starter frame if you can get another one for some credits? That doesnt make sense. New players simply have to learn how it works. And thats impossible if you throw new stuff at them. They have to build and level their main gear, not many.....

[someguy216]

Well clearly posting something like this on a warframe fan base was not the wisest idea but I just wanted there to be some more for newer players to work with. Because all you start with is basic rifle,basic pistol,basic sword and 1 warframe and it takes a long time of grinding before you can get something new, because ive been playing for hours and im still got all the starting gear other than a new sword.

And you say all warframes can be purchased through the market but the thing is some of the materials our on far out high lvl planets, though this problem could be fixed if for the blueprints on the market they would say what materials you need.

In risk of getting shat on again i think it would be nice if you get start with all 3 of the starting warframes so new players have a lot to work with untill they figured out what type of character they want and then buy them on the market.

[Iyunzusto]

So let's say for argument's sake that it's pay2win

What's the solution that keeps players happy but still keeps the devs in business?

[Venarge]

Well clearly posting something like this on a warframe fan base was not the wisest idea but I just wanted there to be some more for newer players to work with. Because all you start with is basic rifle,basic pistol,basic sword and 1 warframe and it takes a long time of grinding before you can get something new, because ive been playing for hours and im still got all the starting gear other than a new sword.

And you say all warframes can be purchased through the market but the thing is some of the materials our on far out high lvl planets, though this problem could be fixed if for the blueprints on the market they would say what materials you need.

In risk of getting shat on again i think it would be nice if you get start with all 3 of the starting warframes so new players have a lot to work with untill they figured out what type of character they want and then buy them on the market.

I would give them a tutorial with all 3 starter frames to let them choose one. Why one? Because you would have to do soooooooooooooo much grinding to level all 3 up. Like I said, the player needs one main frame and gear. Players need to level up this first before going to another one. Otherwise the player would have to do the low levels over and over again cause his new frames arent leveled. 3 frames would simply be too much choice.....

Edited April 1, 2013 by Venarge

[Toddwjp]

This game isn't pay to win, the Branton cost 10000 credits and is a direct upgrade, the gorgon Bp can be bough once you leveled up. Te latron snipertron 50k each. Pistols cost credits as well, I see no pay to win aspects at all. In fact the closest to p2w is the skin for the hammer that buffs it a little bit, but then it also nerfs it a little. So it's fair.

[vieuxchat]

blueprints cost only 15k ? And if you are a low level, you dont have anything else to waste your credits for. So I dont actually see your point. Besides that. New players should first max the first frame. Whats the point in having a starter frame if you can get another one for some credits? That doesnt make sense. New players simply have to learn how it works. And thats impossible if you throw new stuff at them. They have to build and level their main gear, not many.....

And if after 5 or 6 hours your frame doesn't suits you ? For instance I like to try different frames before chosing one main. That what happenned with me in ME3 : tried the soldier first, hated it, tried a sniper, liked it, tried an adept, loved it. should I wait 40 hours of play before trying just 3 different frames ?

But it shows a problem with warframes : their skills aren't very usefull and most of the time you just gunplay. Even Loki with its very very different skills use its weapons 90% of the time. So what incentive is there to play different builds ? Mods can let you vary a little, but as the skills are at the same time spammable and unused most of the time, you don't feel really like playing frames so different.

The only thing that drastically change the way to play are the vitality and redirection mods and new weapons (like the paris or just better weapons with a better rate of fire = you have to aim better)

A good tutorial that would male you try 3 different warframes would let the player focus on important things : weapons.

But fusing mod costs so high...

[Mir.]

o this thread again.

Much friendly blood has been shed over this topic.

Personally I bought founders because I've already spent more than 100+ hours during back then, I felt this game is worth supporting for so I did it.

[krisp]

That what happenned with me in ME3 : tried the soldier first, hated it, tried a sniper, liked it, tried an adept, loved it. should I wait 40 hours of play before trying just 3 different frames ?.

ME3 costs 60 bucks. With 60 bucks I'm sure you can buy a lot of frames in this game.

[Venarge]

ME3 costs 60 bucks. With 60 bucks I'm sure you can buy a lot of frames in this game.

+1

People these days want everything for doing nothing.....

[RogueRoach]

With creddits is the only way to get warframes through blue prints? I've spent an hour looking through the store of war frames and you can buy warframes with platnium or buy blueprints that take a bit to get the parts for and additional fee to build along with a time limit. So basically is there another way to get a warframe other than Planium and blueprints?

[LordLokai]

only be purchased with plat? It seems you havent even looked at the whole market. please. EVERY item is obtainable through playing. So please. Go and look at the whole market before making these kind of threads....

Blueprints are obtainable for almost every weapon/ frame for credits.... This thread is invalid

just because it can be attained in game doesnt discount that you can indeed buy power in this game... though its not quite as bad as some other games since still need mods and to level weapons up, and for most part weapons seem to be side grades least some of them. Game isnt pay 2 win but you can indeed buy power fairly easy.

[vieuxchat]

ME3 costs 60 bucks. With 60 bucks I'm sure you can buy a lot of frames in this game.

I spent 90€ for Warframe :P So more than ME3.

But to attract players and making them want to spend money they have to get roughly an idea of what thay "could" get.

Let's take the example of World of Tanks, a free to play, and not at all a pay to win. You can play for hundreds of hours wihout spending money. and there will be enough people buying things for the game to be a real success. So what ? The premium tanks aren't all powerfull. you can get almost all of the tanks freely. It will just take more time. Want to try a british tank ? Or a chinese one ? You have the starter ones. You can try to play with light tanks (for reco), with medium/heavy tank (for damage and mobility), with tank destroyers (for direct heavy damage), with artillery for huge indirect damage. Wthout spending a € you can play most of the game.

So what are the differences ? When you want to be competitive. You'll need an edge. Some objects that boost stats (like 10% reloading time) can only be bought with gold. And if you want to play with 3 mates you have to buy one extra slot (you can only go platoon with someone else without paying). Clans are for those that pay. And premium account gets +50% XP and credits at the end of each battle.

I think that the business model to show before buying is a good one. In WoT you also have a limited number of tanks available. Want more ? Buy new hangars. You're also limited in the number of soldiers.

For instance, with Warframe they could put an xp table that would let you get the first 8 levels fairly easy then it'll take a lot of time to level them up (and giving new players the 3 staters, not letting them chose, they get the 3). Unless you get a "premium" account.

Same for weapons. A new player could try the bow and think "wow cool" but after some time they see that it's hard to get past level 8 (or 10).

Same for squads : without paying you only can be on a team of 3.

Or maybe the new players could spend 5 plat to have access to a warframe for a week ?

What I'm trying to say is that incentive to buy things should be put on things players can try. I wouldn't really like to have spent some platinum on a warframe I wouldn't then like to play. But how could I know if I didn't try it ? In WoT the different kind of gameplay (light/medium/heavy tanks, tank destroyers and artillery) can be tried by a new player.

Edited April 1, 2013 by vieuxchat

[EpikEnvy]

I grinded Exta for days.

I got a chassis blueprint.

Even if I @(*()$ spent 10 dollars that wouldn't be enough for a frame, and that's horse S#&$.

It's not pay to win, it's pay to not be @(*()$ annoyed by a S#&$ty drop system.

[krisp]

I spent 90€ for Warframe :P So more than ME3.

But to attract players and making them want to spend money they have to get roughly an idea of what thay "could" get.

snip

I agree with a trial system but the rest of the business model you described sounds like crap. No F2P game should ever sell power, no matter how small. Also, party size restrictions unless you pay? Horrible idea.

[sgtarpin]

I'm pretty tired of this topic. As you can see, I have the option to buy whatever I want with platinum. I have not because I feel it would detract from the experiance and reward of finding the mats and prints, and crafting what I want myself. I've been playing for a week and have had a decent return. I don't have any new frames, but I have gotten enough mats to make the weapons I've wanted so far.The drop rates are not bad enough to complain about. Even if I did buys what I wanted with platinum, who have I hurt? I think the answer to that is no one but myself, because what will I play for now? If by "pay to win", you mean the ability to buys stuff to make it easier to win missions, that very well may be true. But you don't actually win. You've robbed yourself of the experiance. My suggestion is to get some friends, play the game, and have fun doing it.

Edited April 1, 2013 by sgtarpin

[vieuxchat]

I agree with a trial system but the rest of the business model you described sounds like crap. No F2P game should ever sell power, no matter how small. Also, party size restrictions unless you pay? Horrible idea.

It may sounds like crap, but it works for wargaming.net. So maybe it's not a bad move (but there may be real differences between WoT and Warframe that implies that their business model can't be copy/pasted as a whole)

[DreakinZ]

Idk, but I don't mind it at the moment as it's still in beta as I wanna support them as much as possible.

[DreakinZ]

Idk, but I don't mind it at the moment as it's still in beta as I wanna support them as much as possible.

Planning to get grand master founder pack anyways,

[krisp]

It may sounds like crap, but it works for wargaming.net. So maybe it's not a bad move (but there may be real differences between WoT and Warframe that implies that their business model can't be copy/pasted as a whole)

I've seen and heard of F2P games with crap business models (we're talking hardcore power selling here) that worked for them. Just the fact that it works isn't an excuse to use it.