Let's Stop It With Themed Frames For Just A While?

[Archwizard]

But what about a frame like Hydroid? Going past the obvious cosmetic motifs of pirates and water, do his ability mechanics have a strong sense of design? Do his gameplay mechanic reinforce his particular theme? I'd argue they do not, and are very generic. Same goes for a frame like Oberon.

 

Took me a couple re-reads to understand you didn't mean Hydroid's skills don't fit together, just that they don't scream "Pirate".

To be fair to Hydroid, there isn't a lot you can do for a Pirate outside of aesthetics, since it's a rather underdone motif in RPGs. Undertow at least did what it could to cement him as a Water elemental, Tempest Barrage could easily be seen as a damaging rain skill instead of a cannon barrage, and Tidal Surge is just short of making the tidal wave angle believable (give it some knockback/carrying ability and it's perfect all around!). Water has always been a pretty versatile element in terms of playstyle, and frankly I'm thankful they didn't go the way of making him another generic bubble/rain-casting healer (especially when our others already needed so much work when he was shipped...).

 

There's a difference between being generic and being a codifier. For instance, take Ember - Fireball is probably the most generic offensive ability in the world, but you still look at it and go "Yeah, I can see that for a fire elemental". Hydroid may rely on that too much in some cases, but the same can generally apply for him in terms of his purely Water-themed skills (as much as it can without water damage in the game or making him too close to Frost).

 

In the case of Oberon though, his abilities are just generic (does he even have anything unique to him?), and speak for another theme entirely. They only tangentially relate to a vague "holy(ish?)" theme, rather than the complete/specific Paladin image Scott was trying to push. If the word wasn't pasted everywhere around him, you wouldn't associate him with a Paladin at all! He feels like an excuse for Scott to push out a generic Radiation-elemental that he could point to and say "Here's your Earth frame, Councilmembers".

Just like Nekros...

 

Point being, I'd call them outliers, given how many other frames have been (mostly) successful with this arrangement.

Further, I'm already the type to argue those need work to have their skills be more fitting to their themes, given that their themes do have potential to pull their skills out of their bland non-exclusivity.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Archwizard

[fatpig84]

We need a gun slinger frame.

 

That isn't a theme, it is just a frame that specializes in shooting stuff dead rather than pressing 4.

Much better amrite ?

[Noble_Cactus]

A frame like Loki as you mentioned exemplifies the idea of trickster, or the unconventional. His abilities are based around tackling the enemy in unique ways. His ability design is very solidly based around these idea. 

 

But what about a frame like Hydroid? Going past the obvious cosmetic motifs of pirates and water, do his ability mechanics have a strong sense of design? Do his gameplay mechanic reinforce his particular theme? I'd argue they do not, and are very generic. Same goes for a frame like Oberon.

 

You don't need Loki to have a jester hat with bells to understand his theme. The way he plays does that job. But Hydroids' theme is only skin deep, and it's a trend that bothers me. It's a gameplay issue, but also an issue that Mynki should deal with as well. I really do not hope we continue to see design that relies so heavily on recognizable imagery to be relevant. 

 

Draice stated that Hydroid was actually designed by Keith Thompson, who is also one of the original frame designers.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238523-a-message-to-the-dev-design-and-art-team-regarding-the-design-of-frames/?p=2768421

 

He's also done a lot of work for... a lot of other stuff. His blog is also pretty cool. http://blog.keiththompsonart.com/

 

Anyway, I do understand what you're saying. But I don't think uninspired movesets have to do with "theming" the frames so much as they do with whatever was running through the designers' heads at the time. Or maybe it has to do with the  degrees to which you theme the frames. The Original Eight had very simple themes: simple elements, basic RPG roles. The last three have been a mishmash of a bunch of different elements: Valkyr is berserker/monk/prison convict/kitty, Oberon is... whatever the hell he is (okay it's durid/pally/guardian/Medieval knight/crusader), Hydroid is pirate/water/swashbuckler.

 

I dunno. Maybe using too many themes in a fame just clashes with only having four abilities to represent that frame, because nothing else represents the frame as being its theme other than its appearance. Something as simple as "Rhino" or "Loki" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Oberon's hodgepodge kind of restricts him to a lot of things that just can't be fit into four skills.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[SilverHazzes]

Paladin theme, he heals and deals damage, as paladins do. Also he has a nature theme going on as he looks like a Satyr and Oberon was king of the faries.

 

 

Oberon is also a ''deer'' frame, it has to do with mithology in europe and his helmets in name and design refer to some species on that animal family.

 

This topic isn´t worth, why you have to judge other people creative areas like that. The design of the frames is more complex than you are thinking and I have to say that this game it´s pretty original if we talk about designing characters and weapons. Rework the things and recombine them in new stuff that´s why marelok is a pistol and not a shotgun, they took the idea from the Terminator fil but they changed and recombined it into something different and original.