Infested Defense = Stunlock Stupidity

[Draxxon]

So I've had a lot of fun with the new Corpus and Grineer defense missions lately, they have a few of their own problems, but are pretty good. I've finally started playing more Infested Defense I've noticed a repeating pattern with them almost immediately that bothers me.

It stems from pretty much every infested being all about being in your face and pushing you around. This isn't that bad on most missions, because you aren't holding still, you're moving and fighting through a ship or asteroid base.

I'm all for challenging gameplay, but gameplay that involves the players being constantly immobilized while being eviscerated, and poisoned to death and not being able to counter it once it starts isn't fun, or truly challenging. It's like Mario World Romhack with nothing but invisible blocks to make you die at every turn. It's not a matter of skill, it's just there to ruin your progress. This isn't a huge deal on early waves, but even on Io by after about wave 5 it starts to become apparent.

It's not a matter of just one enemy that's the cause of this, but I must say the runners are a very heavy part of this, and the problem is compounded by how the other infested attack as well. All types of infested come in hoards bigger than you can generally kill before they get to you, especially since they come from multiple sides. It generally starts with either 1 runner making it to you and exploding or a charger striking and causing a slight stun. You, and likely most of your team probably all have this happen to you about the same time. Before you can even move or use an ability, you are probably hit by another runner that just showed up, and then another and so on. More and more infested are swarming because you aren't able to shoot them as they come up, because you were already stunned, so the problem continues to get worse. To make things even worse, while you were being stunlocked, a leaper probably ran up and started charging a leap at you, which will hit, because you can't move. Now you're on the ground, and probably helplessly being torn to pieces by the zillions chargers you haven't had any chance to kill because you've been stunlocked. Let's not forget the ancients who've made their way up with tons of health nearly unhindered because of your helplessness. The "healers", they stun on hit too. The disrupters, are not only going to stun you, but drain all of your shields and energy while you were already stunned, and take away pretty much any card up your sleeve you might have had to take care of this problem. I don't even think I need to bring up the toxics.

It's just ridiculous. There really isn't anything you can do other than spam some kill all ult and hope to kill them as they run up before the ridiculousness can begin. Except that you will be eventually caught off gaurd, or run out of energy. It's not like you have anywhere else to go. If you leave the crypod, it's going to get shredded and you're going to lose.

[Derpo]

I agree with Draxxon's assertion that infested's stunlock as experienced through April 10 is ridiculous. In addition to the well-written original post:

Removing a player's agency (ability to act) removes the player's ability to PLAY. The player is not playing the game, the player is watching the game and hoping for a chance to play. Watching your avatar get helplessly beat on is obviously not fun. It's worse than 'not a fun game'--it's not even a game of any sort. If the player cannot act and cannot make interesting decisions then the player is a spectator. If I wanted to be a spectator, I'd be watching Psyche or something similar.

Devs, wonderful Canadian geniuses all, think about what you're doing here.

[Gamerboy1420]

Agree^^^ There needs to be some kind of ''Counter" move we can use or maybe pressing spacebar or shift (watever) at the moment u get knocked down (or it doesnt even have to be at the moment. maybe when your jst down) youll get up quicker and act. Idk whats best for this situation but i hope the Devs will look into it and find a solution to this...

Edited April 10, 2013 by Gamerboy1420

[Imbaland]

It goes beyond just stunlocks from enemies at the moment. There are so many little "cinematic" animations that take control away from the player.

Ledge Grabs

Jump Rolls

Stumbles

Weapon switching

Get rid of all of them, or at least give us some semblance of control during them. If I MUST perform a roll after every single jump, then let me still change my direction during the roll. If I must grab onto every single ledge I come within 10 meters of, let me hit crouch to immediately let go.

[LongDraw]

There is a counter move, it's called not everyone being on the floor. Have everyone start on boxes to shoot the runners, then move down and gather all the enemies together and everyone does their ultimates at one time. Wam bam thank ya mam!

[Draxxon]

There is a counter move, it's called not everyone being on the floor. Have everyone start on boxes to shoot the runners, then move down and gather all the enemies together and everyone does their ultimates at one time. Wam bam thank ya mam!

Yes, because we're all going to constantly have enough energy to constantly ult and take out 50 enemies + 10 ancients every wave. Did you even read my post?

Anywho.

I think I have a suggestion I think both makes sense and is fair. There's a lot of enemies that cause some sort of stun in this game, and a couple that can flat out knock you on the ground. Though we may not need to start taking away stuns from the enemies that do them on hit.

As users of Warframes we have personal energy shields. Shields are energy that is generated and forced to stay still can cover and area. They block things like bullets and lasers without you so much as flinching. Bullets are pieces of metal flying sometimes faster than the speed of sound, so why can you take bullets without thinking about it, but a 10 mph punch or slap knocks you around?

I think are shields should be our defense from general knocking around. It physically makes sense and it would reduce the amount of nonsense from all the enemies that cause stun. Certain things that are more forceful than others I think should still effect us even if our shields are still running, but I think we should all have a high level of stun protection as long as are shields are powered.

[Karosu]

The downside and upside of fighting infested is they are all melee so good aoes and melee can rip them apart fast, and you can complete waves FASTER than the grineer or corpus. its a trade-off design of the races. my suggestions? add some shield/hp or if ur frame has good armor base, some armor. grab a heavy weapon and swing it like mad, do ground pounds to know ancients over and execute.

Infected are my favorite type to play and ive killed more of them than grineer and corpus combined. As long as you know what to expect and how to exploit the weaknesses of each enemy it isnt That big of a problem, well until they start getting about lvl 80+ but anything at that level should be really hard anyways.

My tactic? swing my scindo like mad for the first few waves, as far as i have experienced, the runners and leapers dont spawn after like wave 15, and until then? one normal melee hit kills them, and if they die to melee they dont go boom.

Leapers u just gotta pay attention for and pop a round in him.

Ancients arent that bad if you slow them, and they take 100% damage on their feet, (75% from head)

what i do is put cold on a ranged weapon that i can spray with or do an area of, and have it on my weapon.

I spray with my gorgon in a direction slowing that stuff. fire my shotgun pistol in another direction to buy more time, and smash anything else that gets close to me. Scindo can hit toxic ancients outside poison range, and everything but ancients die in one normal hit til bout wave 17 (with my scindo).

Edited April 10, 2013 by Karosu

[Imbaland]

The issue as I see it is not whether infested are easy to kill or not. They could all move as fast as the crawlers, and have 1 HP, and there would still be no justification for having them remove player control endlessly.

Taking away control, or stunning the player, is the worst way to introduce difficulty every conceived in games. Rather increase their damage, increase their range, increase their health. Anything, rather than taking away player control.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Imbaland

[Worira]

Clearly this is your punishment for not playing a 4 Rhino, 4 Energy Siphon team and literally never not being invincible.

Anyway yeah stunlocking is a bad mechanic, make it go away please.

[Mak_Gohae]

Equip your weapons with fire mods, aim for the legs of the runners so they fall.....use your abilties........run around and dont stay in one spot.

[Imbaland]

One funny thing happened to me on a corpus map. Not related to infested obviously, but related to the stunlock.

I had chosen a mission that was a few levels to high for me without realising, and ran into a single rail gun Moa. Outleveled or not, a single moa was certainly no challenge at all, so I charge at it with my melee weapon, charging up a shot, and just as I got near it, it hit me once, staggering me. No worry, I thought, beginning to charge another attack the moment that I had regained my balance. As the second attempt was about to connect, it shot me again, staggering me again. I tried again, with the same result. It was around this point that I realised that the shots were doing far more damage than I had thought, and that my health was actually getting dangerously low. At this point I began flailing wildly, forgetting about charged shots. I got about 5 hits off when the next shot landed, staggering me once more. At this point I was on less than 50 health, and decided to flee as quickly as I could. Unfortunately, there was no cover in the vicinity, and I was killed by the final shot, by a single moa, without ever seeing another enemy.

All of this took place within about 10 or so seconds, around 50% of which I spent without being able to control my character.

[Mak_Gohae]

One funny thing happened to me on a corpus map. Not related to infested obviously, but related to the stunlock.

I had chosen a mission that was a few levels to high for me without realising, and ran into a single rail gun Moa. Outleveled or not, a single moa was certainly no challenge at all, so I charge at it with my melee weapon, charging up a shot, and just as I got near it, it hit me once, staggering me. No worry, I thought, beginning to charge another attack the moment that I had regained my balance. As the second attempt was about to connect, it shot me again, staggering me again. I tried again, with the same result. It was around this point that I realised that the shots were doing far more damage than I had thought, and that my health was actually getting dangerously low. At this point I began flailing wildly, forgetting about charged shots. I got about 5 hits off when the next shot landed, staggering me once more. At this point I was on less than 50 health, and decided to flee as quickly as I could. Unfortunately, there was no cover in the vicinity, and I was killed by the final shot, by a single moa, without ever seeing another enemy.

All of this took place within about 10 or so seconds, around 50% of which I spent without being able to control my character.

Because you ran straight at it and CONTINUED to run straight at it.

Seriously, hilarious story. "I keep running at it.... but nothing happens!"

[Imbaland]

Because you ran straight at it and CONTINUED to run straight at it.

Seriously, hilarious story. "I keep running at it.... but nothing happens!"

Sorry for my arrogance! Who was I to think that I would be able to take on a lone moa single handedly! Next time I will surely group up for such a fight.

All you need is a little imagination, and evidently a bit more intelligence, to see that with two rail gun moas, or two anything that stuns or stumbles, and you have the possibility for inescapable stunlock. I would like to know what safeguards are in place to stop such a thing.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Imbaland

[Mak_Gohae]

Sorry for my arrogance! Who was I to think that I would be able to take on a lone moa single handedly! Next time I will surely group up for such a fight.

All you need is a little imagination, and evidently a bit more intelligence, to see that with two rail gun moas, or two anything that stuns or stumbles, and you have the possibility for inescapable stunlock. I would like to know what safeguards are in place to stop such a thing.

If you run in a straight line toward the enemy... you are going to have a bad time.

It's a 3D game.......... use some of those extra dimensions.

[Imbaland]

If you run in a straight line toward the enemy... you are going to have a bad time.

It's a 3D game.......... use some of those extra dimensions.

Refreshing elitism in a single player game once again. Funny thing is I would probably demolish you in any multiplayer game of your choosing. Have fun with your NPCs though.

[Mak_Gohae]

Refreshing elitism in a single player game once again.

It's "elitist" to tell you to not run straight at an enemy?

Funny thing is I would probably demolish you in any multiplayer game of your choosing.

If you are having problems with an enemy that just stands there a shoots....i dont think this is happening.

Or if you do have such prodigious skills.... why would you have any trouble with an enemy that just stands there and shoots?

You can even avoid their shots by strafing while you are zoomed in! And that's a tremendously slow walk.

Have fun with your NPCs though.

Huh?

Edited April 10, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Gestalt]

Stop Mak'ing, Mak -_-

But yeah, the staggering issue's been brought up forever with the devs, and they've acknowledged that it's not too fun to always resort to creating enemies that stagger players. But they did implement the block mechanic, which is supposed to alleviate the staggering attack of say chargers. Not sure about railgun moa, since I never really bothered to block. Blue moas always go down first when a wave comes. Yellow ones at least you can roll over the shockwaves.

I think the block mechanic is a work in progress, and given how some weapons' block animation isn't even complete, I think DE will keep working on it and balance it, so it's a more viable option to deal with staggers.

Would've wanted them to move away from stagger mechanics personally, but I'm sure if they intend to keep putting in new enemies that stagger you, they'll keep working on balancing our ability to get out of staggers.

Also, ask about techrolls (put them in game plz devs~) in tomorrow's livestream! There's another way to deal with knockdowns or staggers.

[LongDraw]

Refreshing elitism in a single player game once again. Funny thing is I would probably demolish you in any multiplayer game of your choosing. Have fun with your NPCs though.

Ya know, I normally don't care for PvP, but in this case, I'm actually looking forward to the Imbaland vs Mak showdown! Gonna be hard to keep from laughing, but I'll try my best ;)

[Xtorma]

Taking control form a player is reviled by most every player. It is an easy way to add difficulty, however, and that is why you see it in so many games.

[Sophax]

This madness has to stop.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Sophax

[GrimmLiberty]

I have to wonder if they use an ability that is on a timer, uses energy, etc... or it is just a spam function?

because, while I HATE it, if it uses the same rules as we do for powers, then I have no issue with it... maybe it could use some power consumption tweaking? but other than that, I'd take it....

However, if it is just a spam function with no real 'control rules' like energy, I am totally against it.

Edited April 10, 2013 by GrimmLiberty

[Elhazzared]

Enemies have no energy, they do have kind of cooldowns or more to the point, an attack every X seconds, but that's it. Staggering isn't bad mechanics, taking control away from a player isn't bad mechanics. In a game where you basicly are a god because you can take control over the battlefield with your powers, your shields and above all your mobillity, taking some control away is the way to force the player to actually rethink on how he will fight and have to adapt to the enemies that are currently there.

Now, I belive this has derailed quite a lot so I will answer the OP on how to deal with these missions cause they are dirty easy to do solo.

Stand in a 2 sized box or something of similar height that the enemy can't climb. Preferably have cold in your weapons to slow them down and fire to deal a ton of extra damage. Now you will be ignored, everyone will go for the pod. Shoot at them as they go for the pod. Only ancients should be able to hit you now but if you are so far as 10 meters away from it they will just ignore you and go for the pod as well. Have only fast firing guns to kill everything quickly and belive me, the pod can take quite a few hits, you'll have plenty of time to kill everyone. Ancients rarelly show in this missions. In a worst case scenario you'll have 1 ancient in wave 4 and 3 in wave 5. Remember they will be the last ones to get there because they walk until they are close enough to do the rush while everything just runs at it and gets there first. Still, more often you'll only have 1 or 2 ancients by wave 5 and since the enemy can't reach you and because they normally prefer to target the pod so long as it's the closest target you'll never be staggered, it's just a kill feast... My weapons of choice for this would be AFuris as pistols and for riffles either the braton (the 45 round clip since it has almost the double firerate) or the gorgon (which I don't really like myself because of the windup period but it still works perfectly well here).

[Earl.Grey]

They should just put a system that they have for some bosses i.e. you can only knock them down once then they are immune for a few seconds.

[Lammeth]

Stuns are Ok. Every single game has them in some form or fashion. Endless stunlocks arent, tho. Dont ask for stun removal. Ask for stunlock counters or immunities.

This way everyone will be pleased, not only those who cant deal with stuns.

My suggestion: first hit = normal stun with the usual related animations, second hit = shorter stun and animation, third hit and beyond up to a immunity timer that started counting after the first hit = only a camera shake effect

[Iraetus]

Well, there is a temporary solution (although not the best). I think heavy weapons such as Scindo, when they strike, as long as we keep mashing the melee button, our character cannot get stunned, still gets damaged though. (But still can get knocked back)