An Impartial Look At Kubrows

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Obviously, I'm a PS4 player. This means I haven't farmed for hours to get an egg, or waited a day to have one hatch and the kubrow mature only to have it die to something stupid. Since I haven't spent my time getting frustrated and mad, I think I can look at the information currently available and come up with a way to make kubrows better without knee-jerk reactions or frustrations due to bugs, based on the information collected here and on the wiki.

 

I think it's important to throw ideas like this out so maybe they can be implemented before we get U14, so we don't wait a month for U14 and then another month for a U14.1 that doesn't suck.

 

Long post incoming. I'd appreciate it if any quoted sections be cut down to just the parts being responded to.

Upkeep Costs
I get it. Ha ha, like a real dog. It's not a real dog though. It's not even a real dog in the context of the game, but a creature designed for combat utility. Kubrows appear to be less useful than sentinels, which I don't consider a problem because they do some things that sentinels don't and are cool. The problem is that they take 100K worth of kubrow food to keep at a substandard operating level.

I don't believe the "investment" helps players connect with their imaginary companions or makes them concerned for the kubrows well being, it just makes them not want a stat reduction. GTA Online tried to pull something like this to extort players into logging in every day, but they patched it out because everyone hated it. Login bonuses are okay, not-login penalties are not okay. Penalties of this sort only ensure players see no value in returning if they miss out.

The fix: Kubrow food is needed to restore the bonus only after kubrow death. There is no degradation over time. We will find them valuable because of what we do together and the times that they save us (PROD CREWMAN) not because we pretend to pet them and spend pretend money on them.

Loyalty
It's a cloned creature that was designed for military use. While it might sound kind of cold, why are these genetically engineered creatures even capable of not liking their handler? If I were creating these things, they would have Asimov's Laws as part of their basic existence, the fact that the robots are made of dog meat is not a factor. They would like their handlers because the concept of not liking them is not part of their reality.

The fix: Remove this. That's it. They are loyal because they're ours. It doesn't sound like this adds anything interesting to the game other than pressing the 'pet' key, which is not rewarding. It's not. Anybody that has a pet will understand why it isn't. Keep the interactions in for fun.

Suicidal Behavior
Having a "loyal", "helpful" companion that runs into certain death because it's as dumb as a rock just ensures that it's useless in a mission where the enemies are a threat. While I'm willing to accept that they're attack-focused instead of utility-focused like sentinels, but there's no excuse for them not avoiding damage.

The fix: Kubrows either need to A) Be immortal or B) have a complete AI overhaul so they actually recognize sources of damage and avoid them. Immortal helpers don't exactly fit with the game, so we'll have to go with B. As void enemies are more than happy to run right through their own laser traps and die, while Corpus will run through Grineer magnetic doors on captured tilesets, I doubt this is something DE can fix quickly but it's just something they'll need to do if kubrows are going to be worth the sentinel slot. Fix kubrow bleedout to instate player agency in the process (already planned). Modify kubrow bleedout to be mandatory (i.e. no amount of damage, be it void lasers or stalker slash dashes, can kill them without bleedout time).

Defrost Time
So kubrows are penalty generation machines that eat platinum and poop disappointment. I'm sure what will make them better is an arbitrary restriction on using them appropriately.

The fix: Remove this. With kubrow stats not degrading over time, there's no reason for stasis to be a thing. I'm not going to spend three hours doing other missions just to take a kubrow on the one I actually want to do. I'll just equip a sentinel and do the mission I want. As for where they're stored? Nowhere. Game mechanics. Explanation done. I hate to hurt some DE's feelings, but the lore is thin and inconsistent at best. For every interesting look at the history of the universe (Ember Prime codex) there's a handfull of inconsistencies that spoil it for me. Put gameplay first and don't make kubrow swapping a hassle.

 

Release

Unwanted kubrows should not clutter players' inventories. This would be heartless if we were talking about real animals, but these are not real animals.

 

The fix: Let players sell them like any other item.

 

Scrambler & Imprints
Online gambling is bad, mmmkay? Paying real money for random results is bad. It goes against the established model in Warframe, that being one of paying for convenience, with the ability to play the game and persist in trading allowing all players to progress without randomness. It doesn't sound like imprint combinations or dna scrambling have the reliability that players want. I understand that the goal is to have kubrows simulate animals slightly more and not simply be a piece of gear that players customize and equip, but the lore describes them as organic gear. Genetically engineered, purpose built, organic gear.

I will echo the sentiments of others and mention that real money-random result purchases is the exact sort of trash we said would happen if PWE got involved. Good job assauging those fears of corruption, DE. This is the worst move you could possibly have made.

I'm combining this with the templates because the solution to their issues go together.

The fix:The genetic scrambler needs a complete change, one that makes kubrow breeding worthwhile. Remake the scrambler as recombination. Remove the random factors. Remove the platinum cost (if you want to sell cosmetics, fine, but not for this).

 

The Recombinator will have multiple slots: head shape, ear shape, body shape, coat pattern, coat colors, and breed. (Forgive me if this does not properly cover the appearance features, I'm working off information rather than first hand experience). Placing an imprint into the appropriate slot will give the resulting kubrow that trait, 100% of the time. These will be combined with an unhatched kubrow egg, at the cost of credits only. There should also be one "complete" recombinator space to produce a kubrow from a single imprint with no modifications. This is really only useful for creating new copies of your favorite. Technically, the "full copy" slot could be used to slowly produce more collections of desirable traits once the "perfect" kubrow is achieved (one imprint to sell, a second to produce a new kubrow from which two more imprints could be made) but I don't believe it could be done fast enough to be a problem and will still consume the resources needed to create a new kubrow.

For example, if I want a black kubrow, I need to get an imprint of one with black fur. Placing that imprint in the coat color recombinator slot will always produce a kubrow with black fur and ignore any other traits that may be on that imprint because it's being used in the coat color slot. In order to 'build' an ideal kubrow, players will need to acquire six different imprints. If they decide they don't care about some of the traits, they will still need to fill in those spaces with imprints (but they can use whatever imprint they happen to have).

Imprints, likewise, need to be modified to show a preview of the kubrow they were made from and the breed so they can be used properly. Save that appearance information and load it into a codex-like diorama imprint preview

Players will still trade them with each other and buy plat to get them from other players if they're lazy (just like prime parts), and most importantly are not paying real money for a dice roll.

Edited July 23, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Well, nothing to add here, I agree with everything you wrote.

[Stormblind]

Well thought out, with reasonable suggestions. I myself was also quite disturbed by the randomizer system that was put in place. 

I've played PWE games in the past, and yeah, if I see WF head that path, I, and basically everyone I know, will drop this. 

[McVolker]

As above, I agree with all these points. Well done.

[Romalic]

have i used the scrambler? yes twice, do i like it?, hell no, 10p a time and what you pay for is a random chance, i cant agree more that this kind of pay for randomness is something i never thought id see from from DE, im not gonna make a PWE reference(well i guess i did anyway) because it would make my heart ache 

 

when your waiting for the kubrow to mature the incubator says you can build the built DNA stabilizer or a bp from the market, there isnt currently a bp

 

and lastly and most importantly change the damn scrambler, its a crapshoot with emphasis on the crap, when i pay real money i expect to get at least some control over what i can choose 

[NightFury30]

definitely like this. this guy seems well researched and addressed all the major issues. i think this stuff should be implemented. 

[VDeorsum]

+100000 OP

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Thanks all. I was a little concerned that I'd miss something obvious being a filthy console peasant, but it's nice to know I didn't.

 

have i used the scrambler? yes twice, do i like it?, hell no, 10p a time and what you pay for is a random chance, i cant agree more that this kind of pay for randomness is something i never thought id see from from DE, im not gonna make a PWE reference(well i guess i did anyway) because it would make my heart ache 

 

when your waiting for the kubrow to mature the incubator says you can build the built DNA stabilizer or a bp from the market, there isnt currently a bp

 

and lastly and most importantly change the damn scrambler, its a crapshoot with emphasis on the crap, when i pay real money i expect to get at least some control over what i can choose 

 

I'd like to remove mandatory platinum from the scrambler all together. That plat can change hands as players farm for and consume templates with the traits they want. Plat should only be for rushing and addon cosmetics like scarves. Believe me, I'd buy dog scarves and stuff, but I'd know what I was buying with those and I'd hopefully be able to color them with my existing palettes.

 

Having all those imprints consumed in crafting would drive a decent economy, and the process for straight up cloning is just too slow for players to truly exploit (one sellable "perfect" imprint every few days), and that's if they want to spread around their favorite kubrow look and make it less special. Rare features like certain colors and patterns still need to be found or acquired naturally by someone along the way.

 

Paying with credits and having control to scramble/recombine, while the platinum gets to players that might need it and drained from the market on their necessities in player trading for all the needed, consumable imprints sounds like a much better scenario.

[Ealonex]

Oh my god, YES

DE IS LOOKING AT THIS

THANK YOU DE

THIS IS WHY I PLAY WARFRAME! YOU LOOK AT FEEDBACK!

 

If you don't know what I'm talking about, here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/269089-hotfix-1405/

 

Its on the top of the Change list.

[Playford]

I fully support everything you just wrote.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

 

Oh my god, YES

DE IS LOOKING AT THIS

THANK YOU DE

THIS IS WHY I PLAY WARFRAME! YOU LOOK AT FEEDBACK!

 

If you don't know what I'm talking about, here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/269089-hotfix-1405/

 

Its on the top of the Change list.

 

WOO!

For a moment I thought you meant they were looking at this topic specifically and was even more excited, but review is review. There's lots of feedback available for them.

[Varzy]

Was discussing the AI in another topic and had some thoughts much like yours. They need to identify traps/damage pools and get out of the way. Bonus points if some breeds of kubrow actually attack and destroy the traps.

 

Their AI needs to be tweaked to be made much more aggressive - they should have combos in their own right, attacking enemies several times in a row and harassing them with impact and slash procs, instead of lunging once and jumping away.

 

To that effect we should be able to give simple orders. A hotkey that cycles our kubrow's AI state between Defensive (current AI, only attacks enemies you are attacking or are attacking you. Possibly focuses on knocking down enemies, dodging attacks, and harassment) and Aggressive (Attacks enemies indiscriminately, chains 3-4 attacks at once, attacks until enemy is dead or master leaves the area).

 

---

 

As an aside, I think there should be a random element to the genetic scrambler, but just that, an element.

 

When modifying genetics, categories up for change are Head/Body/Legs/Belly/Pattern/Face.... maybe Tail?

 

You can specify 2 categories to change into a specific option (ie, lotus face, striped coat pattern), and lock 1 existing option (ie, Brown body color) so it doesn't change, but the remaining 3 or 4 categories are randomized.

 

This process costs credits to generate a preview, and we can save multiple previews. Applying the preview to our kubrows is free but takes 90mins. If DE wants to do Platinum sales, they could release Genetic Patterns onto the market that open up new cosmetic options the scrambler can use.

 

If you want a specific appearance beyond this, breeding is the way to go.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

As an aside, I think there should be a random element to the genetic scrambler, but just that, an element.

 

When modifying genetics, categories up for change are Head/Body/Legs/Belly/Pattern/Face.... maybe Tail?

 

You can specify 2 categories to change into a specific option (ie, lotus face, striped coat pattern), and lock 1 existing option (ie, Brown body color) so it doesn't change, but the remaining 3 or 4 categories are randomized.

 

This process costs credits to generate a preview, and we can save multiple previews. Applying the preview to our kubrows is free but takes 90mins. If DE wants to do Platinum sales, they could release Genetic Patterns onto the market that open up new cosmetic options the scrambler can use.

 

If you want a specific appearance beyond this, breeding is the way to go.

 

A random element might be more "realistic" and might potentially result in combos that players didn't even know they wanted, but happen to really like. However, we're talking about crazy space technology, where intentional genetic engineering is completely feasable, and if we wanted kubrows to have gills, we'd just splice in some fish dna. It would work because sci-fi. I can see the appeal of randomness though.

 

Maybe my idea for intentional creation with the additional option to use a random button to fill in gaps, with it consuming some resources or imprints that will have their traits completely ignored?

 

I'd also be fine with the 90 minute timer (or maybe even longer) if I was getting what I wanted out of the system. And as long as those market imprints can also be acquired through random eggs and imprints (a very long and grindy process), they can put whatever they like on the market. Personally, I'd prefer it be player traded, but the market also works.

 

It doesn't sound like the breeding/imprint mixing is working all that well at the moment, so I don't particularly want to rely on that. I've seen posts by people claiming to have mixed two of the same breed and recieved a different breed, which sounds like the results are as random as the scrambler.

Edited July 22, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Varzy]

A random element might be more "realistic" and might potentially result in combos that players didn't even know they wanted, but happen to really like. However, we're talking about crazy space technology, where intentional genetic engineering is completely feasable, and if we wanted kubrows to have gills, we'd just splice in some fish dna. It would work because sci-fi. I can see the appeal of randomness though.

 

Maybe my idea for intentional creation with the additional option to use a random button to fill in gaps, with it consuming some resources or imprints that will have their traits completely ignored?

 

I'd also be fine with the 90 minute timer (or maybe even longer) if I was getting what I wanted out of the system. And as long as those market imprints can also be acquired through random eggs and imprints (a very long and grindy process), they can put whatever they like on the market. Personally, I'd prefer it be player traded, but the market also works.

 

It doesn't sound like the breeding/imprint mixing is working all that well at the moment, so I don't particularly want to rely on that. I've seen posts by people claiming to have mixed two of the same breed and recieved a different breed, which sounds like the results are as random as the scrambler.

Yeah, I mean, I suggested having the scrambler guarantee 2 aspects and maintain 1 so that the player got what they really wanted (leopard spot patterned, terracotta red coat, but keeping that silver belly? No problem!), but the random elements introduced could surprise the player and really give the kubrow a sense of personality and uniqueness. It's sci-fi, but you could argue that we're reviving Tamed Kubrows back from extinction and the biology of it all is sensitive, you know?

 

I thought about it a little more and a system like this should have a low credit cost to shuffle (1500c) and a high credit cost to save the preview as a preset (50k). More cosmetic options available to the scrambler could be platinum purchased in the market. You could then imprint the kubrow and trade that imprint to other players for mods and platinum, so that they could get limited access to those genetics.

 

I've got no idea about how breeding works, so keeping mostly quiet on that matter. I should think imprints should guarantee certain traits, however! They should also give detailed information on the genetic information stored.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Varzy

[Schwadronaut]

Complete agreement.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Yeah, I mean, I suggested having the scrambler guarantee 2 aspects and maintain 1 so that the player got what they really wanted (leopard spot patterned, terracotta red coat, but keeping that silver belly? No problem!), but the random elements introduced could surprise the player and really give the kubrow a sense of personality and uniqueness. It's sci-fi, but you could argue that we're reviving Tamed Kubrows back from extinction and the biology of it all is sensitive, you know?

 

I thought about it a little more and a system like this should have a low credit cost to shuffle (1500c) and a high credit cost to save the preview as a preset (50k). More cosmetic options available to the scrambler could be platinum purchased in the market. You could then imprint the kubrow and trade that imprint to other players for mods and platinum, so that they could get limited access to those genetics.

 

I've got no idea about how breeding works, so keeping mostly quiet on that matter. I should think imprints should guarantee certain traits, however! They should also give detailed information on the genetic information stored.

 

Recent patchnotes say they've removed recessive traits, so combining two imprints will always use the dominant ones, but it's hard to really know what that means. Presumably, combining two brown kubrows will now reliably result in a brown kubrow. I don't think U14 has been out long enough for people to really have worked out how it all works, but the random factors make doing so even more complicated.

 

I'd really like there to be a way to select all the aspects though, even if it means dumping seven or eight imprints into a machine. Imagine going through the imprint breeding process and getting the colors and patters you want only to have the final step that would have been the perfect personal kubrow overwrite half of them. Preserving a random option for people that want that is great, but forcing a random result on people that don't want it will only frustrate the people who, for whatever reason, are really invested in having kubrows.

 

If we can create wiggly-bits lightning guns from space zombies, we should be able to easy bake the dog we want into existence, even if that means collecting all the traits individually.

[Varzy]

Recent patchnotes say they've removed recessive traits, so combining two imprints will always use the dominant ones, but it's hard to really know what that means. Presumably, combining two brown kubrows will now reliably result in a brown kubrow. I don't think U14 has been out long enough for people to really have worked out how it all works, but the random factors make doing so even more complicated.

 

I'd really like there to be a way to select all the aspects though, even if it means dumping seven or eight imprints into a machine. Imagine going through the imprint breeding process and getting the colors and patters you want only to have the final step that would have been the perfect personal kubrow overwrite half of them. Preserving a random option for people that want that is great, but forcing a random result on people that don't want it will only frustrate the people who, for whatever reason, are really invested in having kubrows.

 

If we can create wiggly-bits lightning guns from space zombies, we should be able to easy bake the dog we want into existence, even if that means collecting all the traits individually.

Right, I should clarify, my thoughts on the scrambler is just to adjust an existing, adult kubrow.

 

Players should absolutely have the means to create a kubrow that looks exactly how they want, but that method should be through breeding, using Imprints to weed out undesired traits and combine desired ones. The result would be a fresh kubrow puppy that'll grow into the ideal companion for that player.

 

Scrambler for more casual players and breeding for the determined few.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Varzy

[Greenspore]

The only thing missed here is the ability to only make 2 genetic imprints per Kubrow in the game right now.

This would need to be changed for your system if it involved 6 trait types to fill instead of the current combine 2 RNGish approach.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

The only thing missed here is the ability to only make 2 genetic imprints per Kubrow in the game right now.

This would need to be changed for your system if it involved 6 trait types to fill instead of the current combine 2 RNGish approach.

 

I specifically don't want people to make a hundred imprints from one kubrow. Players shouldn't get lucky and get one (black, lotus design, large) trait that they'll be able to sell over and over. With my suggestion, they could potentially chain them by creating two imprints, selling one, and using the other to breed a matching kubrow to then make imprints of again, but this will be a slow process and not flood the market with certain things.

 

Keeping a limit on the number of imprints would slow their farming a bit and give some value to even the less desirable imprint types just for filler. It would also require players who wish to tailor make their kubrow to either farm or trade, making the personal perfect kubrow an undertaking that gives a bit of value to the results.

 

Think of it like, to recover the lost kubrow patterns, they have to be found again in the wild. Designer kubrows are a lot of work, but anybody that's happy with their just hatched kubrow because it's theirs doesn't have to go through all that work. I admit that cloning could infinitely reproduce them so the 2 imprint limit is just arbitrary, but it's like not being able to sell infinite bo prime handles after finding a single handle.

Edited July 22, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[LinkGetsuei]

Only other thing I would like to add ( for the most part you covered a lot of things I was gonna post about to)

Growth times


For something DE was trying to make be focused around not only raising, but breeding. The breeding part is done in a bad way in my opinion.

Look at it from 2 perspectives.
Plat user: rush the power core for the incubator(10 plat) then rush incubation process(15 plat) Then you wait 24-48 hours( by what I have read it takes 2 server resets for it to mature. So depending on when Incubation ends is how long you will be waiting) All to just reset the process for another day or 2. not bad right? 25 plat and 2 day wait.

Non plat Users:Takes 8 hours for power core, 2 days for incubation, and 24-48 hours for growth. So if you have no plat you will be waiting minimum 3 days 8 hours, maximum of 4 days 8 hours. Just to scan it IF it has any genetics you want, and start all over. that's a long time and can cause people who don't have the currency to purchase plat possible months to obtain the kubrow of there dreams. That's a long time.

My Suggested Solution

Many games have stuff that involve breeding ( a certain game involving pocket monsters would be the most well known) and there is one thing they do in them to help take the edge off. a way in game to shorten time

What I am suggesting here is a way for people who can't purchase plat to be able to do what the plat users do, but like all things done that way do have to put work forth to doing. That way using plat is still the better choice, but it is not the only choice. Basically for each stage of growth make it to were we can feed the machine/Kubrow specific resources or a craft able item that acts as an accelerate. 

Example: During incubation phase the Incubator could have an option to insert either a small number of argon, 1 argon and some gallium, or just some sort of resource that could also make sense mechanical wise (Since DE enjoys this sort of thing.) For Example purpose lets say 2 argon and 10 gallium. for every 2A and 10G put into the incubator the processes is sped up by, lets say an hour. People who can't afford plat (usually) Have the time to farm. This gives them a way to speed up. sure to speed it up to finish it would take 96 argon and 480 gallium with my example, but at least its a way for the common man to speed that process up ( honestly for all reality purpose should be more like 1 argon and 10 some resources that's easier to farm.)

As for the maturing phase. instead of it being server resets I feel it to should be a set amount of time with a way to speed the process. and the Idea I had is to make a craft able food item that would speed up growth. make it look like a stake and have it take like a small number of orokin cells, some nano spores and plastid's and basically it helps with the maturing process of the kubrow.

If you are afraid of this being abused you can also put limiters. make it so you can use enough to shrinking it by 1 day.



-----------------------------------
This was just a thought because for an in game process to focus on something like breeding but have no way to expedite the long parts of said process makes it feel more like work and a hassel and less fun. For some that will make them ignore the feature all together cause its to much sitting on your hands and waiting.

I would love to hear opinions on this, both from OP and from other fellow Tenno.

Edited July 22, 2014 by LinkGetsuei

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I would love to hear opinions on this, both from OP and from other fellow Tenno.

 

Rushing/speeding up the process should probably remain a platium-only situation.

 

I don't think DE is above criticism, but they do make a F2P game and rushing builds is one of the convenience charges they can do without really penalizing players that can't or won't buy platinum.

 

Tailor making a kubrow might take a very long time, but that's the price for being so concerned with space dog dressup and doing it all yourself.

[ForgemasterHD]

Well, nothing to add here, I agree with everything you wrote.

[LinkGetsuei]

Rushing/speeding up the process should probably remain a platium-only situation.

 

I don't think DE is above criticism, but they do make a F2P game and rushing builds is one of the convenience charges they can do without really penalizing players that can't or won't buy platinum.

 

Tailor making a kubrow might take a very long time, but that's the price for being so concerned with space dog dressup and doing it all yourself.

Well that's why I made the comment about it not only need to require resources( specifically ones that take time to farm) but also made it only remove a small amount of time each go. If you have the plat to spend you will obviously choose the plat over the farming since even the farming of resources needed would take to long for some.

its also why I suggested the limiter. if they made a way to speed up incubation and growth of the pup, but made it so without plat you can only speed it up by a days worth of time. then those without plat can at least shrink it from 4 to 2 days of wait. while those with plat can shrink it to 1( since plat is only used in incubation phase)

I still had the thought that this is a company and therefore needs to make money, but with most things DE has always been good at taking the edge off for people who can't afford plat while giving those with plat a slight edge time wise.

[BIossome]

Yes to everything you wrote OP.

[Gripheon]

+1 I agree to all of this.

 

Currently kubrows arent even worth the time and money from me.

(literally just threw her in stasis until all this blows over AND GETS FIXED)

Otherwise my kubrow is never gonna se the light of day again unfortunately.

 

All this would literally fix ALL of my gripes and frustrations with this...mess.

(I might actually care about kubrows if all this happens!)