Trinity Is Broken Imo

[DarkDestiny]

I really like the idea of a support warframe, but I feel trinity is really broken. As it is she can solo anything as long as she has bullets.

 

Energy vampire is just TOO strong, specially on bosses. The whole concept of the skill is a bit broken because in order for it to be useful you have to make more energy then it costs to use.

 

So how it is right now is if you cast it on a regular mob and only you damage that mob, you will get just over the amount of energy needed to cast the spell, so it has a small return.

 

This in theory is a good mechanic. Obviously elite enemy mobs such as heavy machine gunners, ancients, etc will give much more energy back. This again is not a bad thing as these still tend to die relatively quickly enough to not be abuse-able.

 

The abuse-able part of this spell comes to light when you are fighting bosses. It is a infinite source of free energy for anyone shooting the boss. Again this isn't necessarily a bad thing as most spells aren't super broken even when spammed, at least not for boss fighting. However there are a few spells that are broken when spammed, specifically spells that reduce damage taken. I am going to lay out the three most obvious cases:

 

1. Trinity Solo - She can just spam energy vampire and Link on bosses and never die. infinite invincibility. This obviously requires she has the ammo to take out the boss or at least keep energy vampire up while the boss kills itself.

 

2. Trinity + Rhino - She can spam energy vampire while he spams iron skin and always reduces the damage to almost nothing

 

3. Trinity + Frost - while not as OP as the other 2, this is probably the best method for ranged bosses. You can have everyone stands in snow globe while Trinity keeps spamming energy vampire.

 

All three of these methods completely ruin boss fights in general, they make them super easy and trivial. They are definitely not the only cases, I know some people can get creative with Volt shield or Saryn Molt. I pretty much am just suggesting that energy vampire should be changed or removed to something a little less exploitable.

[Satori_Mind]

Trinity doesn't even need bullets.  I just Furax things to death with Energy Vampire and Link.  As much as I like her, I'm fully expecting changes to Trinity.  Even if it's just a lower cap on the amount of energy returned by Vampire.  It's 100 right now.

[catastrophy]

So she gets back the energy? The description sounded like the Energy Vampire only would benefit teammates.

[Satori_Mind]

<p>Yup.  Anyone striking the target gains a percentage of the damage as energy.  Since it caps at 100 per person per cast, that usually happens in one or two shots.  So I would say don't run continuity on Trinity so you can recast EV more often, but the extra duration on Link is totally worth it.</p>

[Aerensiniac]

Well lets talk about the fact that the entire concept of "support" class is broken atm.
Lets talk about the fact that entire concept of "tank" is broken atm.
Lets talk about the fact that all frames incorporate all roles in existence and can play out as dps just as well as tank and support.
Take loki for instance. Can tank with decoy while protecting the entire party from fire, can disarm, reposition enemies via switch tele and still will wave around a gram on his shoulder and a gorgon in his hand.

The core value of team play is to limit each class to be able to do a single thing.
Tanks can tank
Support can support
Dps can dps
This ensures that in any given situation none can survive on its own:
Tank will live long, but wont last without support and cant dish out enough damage to solo stuff.
Support can keep itself alive, but will take increasing amounts of damage and fail at offense
Dps is just in general a glass cannon.

The conclusion is that whatever you play, you will be forced to communicate, plan, socialize, play in a synergy with others.
The forceful limitations imposed on you thus open up a deeper level of game play that involves several hundred times more factors, game content and fun potential than just running around on maps like a derailed train'o doom, massacring chanceless enemies all by yourself, for the point of grinding XP/items in order to get something new/"progress" (as if there would be anything you could progress towards).

So tbh the issue of trinity being overpowered is far beyond the cliché answer "Its only the tip of the ice berg".
Not trinity, but all classes are an imbalanced mass of singular OP entities without any real point to their existence.
This is currently the downfall of Waframe.
Within 2 months time where steam players will get bored of the pointless and endless grinding, everybody and their mother will start to hate on this game due to (sadly) obvious reasons.

Not much that can be said in regards of this.
Without some serious thinking about what the hell warframe should actually represent on the long run, the game is ought to tear itself apart within a few months time.
Just putting this out there cause i have seen it happen one too many times,

Edited April 14, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Satori_Mind]

stuff

Sounds like you want Warframe to be Warcraft.  I would bail so fast if that happened.

[Aerensiniac]

Sounds like you want Warframe to be Warcraft. I would bail so fast if that happened.

 

You say you would bail. I say you will bail anyway.

Problem is that most of the whiners that wish games in general to be made a zero effort always on cheat mode, will bail without a word.

They whine forums full about how they want this, how they want that, get it, grow bored of it and then simply bail anyway.

I have no doubt that despite the fact that you now say you would bail in the case of a class system, you WILL bail in near future anyway, just because there is nothing more to do for you and the game offers nothing that would make you keep on playing.

 

Like hell i would want warframe to become wow.

That being said, wow's long term play effort plays out a hundred thousand and one times better than the "lol 4 solo players on one map mowing down 0 effort enemies like grass" warframe features currently.

This WILL kill the game if not addressed on moment's notice, and a class system still has a lot more to it than what we have currently.

 

Dont like the idea of a class system? Feel free to suggest something better that solves:

- Lack of team play

- Lack of communication

- Lack of long term point to the game

- Lack of challenge

- Lack of synnergy

- Lack of coop experience in general

- 100% grinding

- Repetitiveness

Summed up: A system that resolves the utter lack and failure of a point to the game we currently have.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Satori_Mind]

You're taking this game way too seriously.  It's not even finished yet!  I invested because DE has proven to have good taste in game design.  The controls and asthetics are pretty fantastic.  It'd be silly to pigeonhole players the way you're describing.  I play different games when I want complex party dynamics.

 

We should be honest.  As a shooter, this game has a skill ceiling too high to match with awesome AI and one hit kills.  It's always going to be about mowing down zero effort enemies to some of us.

[Phlyn]

This WILL kill the game if not addressed on moment's notice, and a class system still has a lot more to it than what we have currently.

 

Dont like the idea of a class system? Feel free to suggest something better that solves:

- Lack of team play

- Lack of communication

- Lack of long term point to the game

- Lack of challenge

- Lack of synnergy

- Lack of coop experience in general

- 100% grinding

- Repetitiveness

Summed up: A system that resolves the utter lack and failure of a point to the game we currently have.

 

 

You never played Diablo 2 did you? one of the longest lasting games of this nature, had ZERO of what you demand to be required features. anyone could do anything, and typically only 1 of the 8 yes EIGHT people had to be compitent. some people like grind, this is a hack and slash loot farm game. more of a shoot and stab, but thats just nit picking.

 

also if you honestly think that any choices made at a moments notice will be good for the game, you should go to business school or maybe even just highschool economics.

[Satori_Mind]

Dont like the idea of a class system? Feel free to suggest something better that solves:

- Lack of team play: non-buggy nervos, 2-point hacks and similar cooperation mechanics.

- Lack of communication: better voice integration and more aggressive non-infested enemies.

- Lack of long term point to the game: competitive clan features!  These will be a thing.

- Lack of challenge: can't be solved for everyone, but harder content is a sure thing.

- Lack of synnergy: most non-damage powers.  Nyx is great.  Nyx + Ember is amazing.

- Lack of coop experience in general: friends, yo.

- 100% grinding: grind is secondary to enjoying the game experience.

- Repetitiveness: stages generated from tilesets helps.  You know there'll be new objectives too.

Summed up: A system that resolves the utter lack and failure of a point to the game we currently have.

A lot of this stuff is already planned or on the way.  You're just being cynical, man.

[Aerensiniac]

You're taking this game way too seriously.  It's not even finished yet!  I invested because DE has proven to have good taste in game design.  The controls and asthetics are pretty fantastic.  It'd be silly to pigeonhole players the way you're describing.  I play different games when I want complex party dynamics.

 

We should be honest.  As a shooter, this game has a skill ceiling too high to match with awesome AI and one hit kills.  It's always going to be about mowing down zero effort enemies to some of us.

 

1. Elaborate what "taking this game way too seriously" means. I merely gave you a high chance possibility on how the future of Warframe looks.

 

2. "Its not even finished yet" doesnt matter the slightest damn bit anymore, since it has been released in the form of an open beta. People are playing it right now, and they can/will get fed up on the long run with the lack of basically everything.

 

3. I invested to support DE myself. They are one of the few game designers out there who are still actually making a game and enjoying the process of making it. Warframe has a soul. Thats something the majority of the games currently on the market cant say about them self, and this is exactly why i am so alarmed about its future.

 

4. "I play different games when I want complex party dynamics." is actually a good argument which i can to a certain extent agree with, but lets face reality: How many times do you play tetris, space invaders or other "trivial" games without a long term point to them?

Lets not compare Warframe to indie games. The mere notion of this thought gives me the chills.

 

5. "It's always going to be about mowing down zero effort enemies to some of us." i cant agree with that to a full extent.

Take the rusher problem for instance. The simples solution would be to increase game difficulty to the point where any attempts at running past mobs would be awarded with a torn down face.

Voila, your zero effort enemies just turned into something that actually requires your team to choose its course of actions and not just jump in the middle of a crossfire and whistle a tune while everything falls apart around you one by one.

[Satori_Mind]

I'm sorry you feel that way, man.

[Aerensiniac]

You never played Diablo 2 did you? one of the longest lasting games of this nature, had ZERO of what you demand to be required features. anyone could do anything, and typically only 1 of the 8 yes EIGHT people had to be compitent. some people like grind, this is a hack and slash loot farm game. more of a shoot and stab, but thats just nit picking.

 

also if you honestly think that any choices made at a moments notice will be good for the game, you should go to business school or maybe even just highschool economics.

 

Good argument, but try and compare Diablo 2's major traits to warframe.

First would be the rare items everyone drooled after. Do you have anything that even remotely resembles Diablo's drop system in warframe?

No. Actually warframe couldnt even be farther from it. The few rare melee weapons that can be found are basically completely useless due to the fact that they are stuck on Skana's level.

 

Second would be the elaborate skill trees with scaling gems to them.

We have a mod system. Can we use that in the same manner diablo 2 did?

Hell no. We have 4 skills that change only in strength/range/duration. A non recharging mana pool that can be replenished via orbs, basically making the entire thing a secondary set of back up skills, to be used once in a while. In their entire concept: Being completely secondary.

 

Third: Team play

Ironically on higher difficulty levels, even diablo had tanks and/or kiters along with DPSers in the background.

Unquestionably, this type of game play required a bit of coordination and strategy, so the average "pew pew" kids didnt get to see much of it.

Irony further increases when you add the fact that nobody in diablo was able to run a char that was a "barbarian amazon assassin druid, raised and taught by paladins in the art of necromancy and magic".

You had to make decisions while choosing, and building chars.

In warframe, you are every class at once, dont have to plan a duck, playing the sole role of the derailed train that obliterates everything in its path.

 

So yes.

Good call on the playstyle of Diablo 2, but it was a long shot.

You wont really be able to find the things that made Diablo a popular game in warframe.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Aerensiniac]

I'm sorry you feel that way, man.

 

Lets hope im completely wrong about it.

[Satori_Mind]

(snip)

8/10, but I expected it to end with "You're one thousand years too early."

[Phlyn]

stuff.

 

i agree, there is some depth there that isn't in warframe yet. but clearly you and I played very different diablo 2s. however i coveted rare mods on the same level, or even blue prints from bosses. then there is the part where gameply actually requires skill and timing, rather than just outgearing/outleveling content.

 

d2 for me was 1/8 people was a hammerdin, teleported to boss instantly, killed it solo, everyone else collected loot. this game already has 4x the team play over that. and it was fun as hell.

[drunkpunk222]

<p>Trinity is uselees, there is no teamplay except defense missions wherwe trinity is useless also, anything else is easy soloabla with any warframe, cant see her skills, and she cant see other members hp and shields theres no right interface, there is no other support classes liek buffers, everyone is damagers and in so easy game there is no need for support.</p>

[Pappus]

Not that you really need anything for bosses. The broken part is that she can give the team invul and spam that as she likes while the team can just keep meleeing toxic ancients and whatever to bits.

[Thingofmyth]

The core value of team play is to limit each class to be able to do a single thing.

People play solo. this will just prevent them from doing so

[Schnoofles]

I say bump up the difficulty of coop missions by a factor of 10. That will force people to adapt and to work together. Some easily interruptable lockdown mechanics from enemies to players in coop missions (think Left 4 Dead style mechanics such as leapers and smokers) would also prevent coop'ers from running off in different directions. The dynamics between players is already present in the game as well as the synergy between different frames' skills. You just never see it in action because it's never needed. The combos mentioned by OP are great, but instead of being a necessity in order to keep the difficulty manageable they're entirely surplus to requirement and just turn the current easymode missions into jokes.

Now I haven't run any numbers on the different classes and combos and boss fights, but I wouldn't be surprised if very little rebalancing of the classes turned out ot be necessary if all that was done was crank up the difficulty to 11 in coop missions. That, and maybe make rare things actually rare, as well as rare things actually good in order to compensate for that rarity. Then people might group up with others they know to be great players from past coop missions in order to take down that insanely hard boss in system x or to respond to that infamous alert mission y that may grant rare artifact z.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Schnoofles

[Hammerspace]

Trinity doesn't even need bullets.  I just Furax things to death with Energy Vampire and Link.  As much as I like her, I'm fully expecting changes to Trinity.  Even if it's just a lower cap on the amount of energy returned by Vampire.  It's 100 right now.

 

That's funny. She's the only frame that I use the Furax with for the exact same reason. Furax, Energy Sypon and Trinity. There's your holy ... well ... Trinity.