Niryco Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) I want to hear from your experience, how long does it take to brainstorm, create, balance and write down a whole skill tree? The reason being is that i am making one right now as a suggestion, but given how many things are in the word document so far despite it not being full with descriptions yet (as of now it is around 40% done but already ranges up to 37 pages on word documents) so i was wondering really how long? I have been at this for about 4 days already. Filling in endless details on the upgrades and skill tree pathing for weapons and warframes as well as other equipment, and so far the expanse of the upgrades can grow such an extreme depth and breadth but it is so time consuming. So how long more would i expect to complete the whole suggestion? I have calculated and compared this upgrade tree system VS current modding systems and i can say with a 95% confidence.... actual 100% confidence that there is more customizations, at least orders of magnitude 20 times more customization options than the modding system for the warframes VS warframes. For other sets it can be more than 25 times of customization options. Although i can't really show the whole tree as of now as it is full of alot of holes, i just want to know if it really does take very long. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jacate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)IIIDevoidIII Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 A skill tree? I tried it once. Took a whole month to create an appropriate tree for three characters. In the end, it had to be scrapped as it simply made every character overpowered and/or underpowered due to the nature of the skills. It was incapable of being balanced or I'm very terrible at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niryco Posted August 9, 2014 Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) A skill tree? I tried it once. Took a whole month to create an appropriate tree for three characters. In the end, it had to be scrapped as it simply made every character overpowered and/or underpowered due to the nature of the skills. It was incapable of being balanced or I'm very terrible at it. Yep, the upgrade tree so far isn't complete but the main aim of it is to be weaker in general to modding system but provide more customization options, the reason is for this system to be adopted along side modding system, so players who want more customizable weapons can go for the upgrade tree, but for weapons that are way more powerful they would go for the modding system. But i haven't gotten to the balancing act yet since i am still filling in the details of the upgrade paths and it is seriously taking a long time. I tried doing balancing while i was free in school and have come up with some numbers, but will probably have to refine it more with statistical analysis methods before i can show all the numbers. Edited August 9, 2014 by Jacate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge_Hellboy Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I want to hear from your experience, how long does it take to brainstorm, create, balance and write down a whole skill tree? The reason being is that i am making one right now as a suggestion, but given how many things are in the word document so far despite it not being full with descriptions yet (as of now it is around 40% done but already ranges up to 37 pages on word documents) so i was wondering really how long? I have been at this for about 4 days already. Filling in endless details on the upgrades and skill tree pathing for weapons and warframes as well as other equipment, and so far the expanse of the upgrades can grow such an extreme depth and breadth but it is so time consuming. So how long more would i expect to complete the whole suggestion? I have calculated and compared this upgrade tree system VS current modding systems and i can say with a 95% confidence.... actual 100% confidence that there is more customizations, at least orders of magnitude 20 times more customization options than the modding system for the warframes VS warframes. For other sets it can be more than 25 times of customization options. Although i can't really show the whole tree as of now as it is full of alot of holes, i just want to know if it really does take very long. First point: They're not removing mod system. Changes and tweaks to it yes, but it isn't going anywhere. Second: If by some miracle you change their mind part of your system will have to replace mod drops with something just as useful. People like loot, lots of it, all the time, even if its not good loot. People trade mods for plat. People buy plat to trade for mods which makes DE money. Your suggestion would have to replace this part of the system too in order to even be given a second thought. They're F2P... but they gotta eat too. Third: While I don't see a skill tree replacing MODs I can see it being part of PvP or just Dark Sector maps or a specific new game type or something so I wouldn't totally write it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niryco Posted August 9, 2014 Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) First point: They're not removing mod system. Changes and tweaks to it yes, but it isn't going anywhere. Second: If by some miracle you change their mind part of your system will have to replace mod drops with something just as useful. People like loot, lots of it, all the time, even if its not good loot. People trade mods for plat. People buy plat to trade for mods which makes DE money. Your suggestion would have to replace this part of the system too in order to even be given a second thought. They're F2P... but they gotta eat too. Third: While I don't see a skill tree replacing MODs I can see it being part of PvP or just Dark Sector maps or a specific new game type or something so I wouldn't totally write it off. it was not even meant replace the mod system. It is meant to compete with the modding system in terms of customization options but not overall power but they must exist side by side. It is like a choice between upgrade tree or modding systems that players can choose to use to level their items. But i rather not discuss it right now, i just would like to know how long these things take to get done because it is sure taking damn long! Edited August 9, 2014 by Jacate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 I want to hear from your experience, how long does it take to brainstorm, create, balance and write down a whole skill tree? The reason being is that i am making one right now as a suggestion, but given how many things are in the word document so far despite it not being full with descriptions yet (as of now it is around 40% done but already ranges up to 37 pages on word documents) so i was wondering really how long? I have been at this for about 4 days already. Filling in endless details on the upgrades and skill tree pathing for weapons and warframes as well as other equipment, and so far the expanse of the upgrades can grow such an extreme depth and breadth but it is so time consuming. So how long more would i expect to complete the whole suggestion? I have calculated and compared this upgrade tree system VS current modding systems and i can say with a 95% confidence.... actual 100% confidence that there is more customizations, at least orders of magnitude 20 times more customization options than the modding system for the warframes VS warframes. For other sets it can be more than 25 times of customization options. Although i can't really show the whole tree as of now as it is full of alot of holes, i just want to know if it really does take very long. Hello, I can offer some thoughts but I'm not sure that they will entirely answer your question. How long it takes to create a decent design document for a skill tree will vary. Depending on both your personal experience/aptitude in the specific discipline of class design and the complexity/depth of the project you are trying to make. There is also the question of are you looking to create some sort of theoretical numerical comparative balance on the skills in the tree or just the more generalized concepts. At any rate: Some folks will put this together in a few days, some folks will take much longer. I wouldn't put any hard expectations on how long this will take if it's your first time. later on you'll be dealing with deadlines and milestones and all that but for your first few times out just take your time and see how it feels. But here is the thing... these design documents are only the beginning. Getting this stuff working in practice is where you'll spend most of your time seeing what works, what doesn't, what balances, what doesn't, what can stay, what can go, what needs to change, what needs to be thrown away. etc. will be where you spend the bulk of your time. The phrase "it's an iterative process" is overused in game development. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely true, it's just that most things in life are an iterative process so it's not really saying anything specific to the industry. It's the same old lesson of working the problem. Point is that your going to be surprised by what actually comes from your design document and that's OK. How it looks on paper and how it looks in practice are rarely (if ever) quite the same thing. There is a ton to learn and to understand on this front but I'd prefer to keep it simple for now. So take your time, do what you can, don't be saddened by how much things may change from idea to implementation... and above all try to enjoy the process. It's going to be some effort. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niryco Posted August 9, 2014 Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) Hello, I can offer some thoughts but I'm not sure that they will entirely answer your question. How long it takes to create a decent design document for a skill tree will vary. Depending on both your personal experience/aptitude in the specific discipline of class design and the complexity/depth of the project you are trying to make. There is also the question of are you looking to create some sort of theoretical numerical comparative balance on the skills in the tree or just the more generalized concepts. At any rate: Some folks will put this together in a few days, some folks will take much longer. I wouldn't put any hard expectations on how long this will take if it's your first time. later on you'll be dealing with deadlines and milestones and all that but for your first few times out just take your time and see how it feels. But here is the thing... these design documents are only the beginning. Getting this stuff working in practice is where you'll spend most of your time seeing what works, what doesn't, what balances, what doesn't, what can stay, what can go, what needs to change, what needs to be thrown away. etc. will be where you spend the bulk of your time. The phrase "it's an iterative process" is overused in game development. Don't get me wrong, it is entirely true, it's just that most things in life are an iterative process so it's not really saying anything specific to the industry. It's the same old lesson of working the problem. Point is that your going to be surprised by what actually comes from your design document and that's OK. How it looks on paper and how it looks in practice are rarely (if ever) quite the same thing. There is a ton to learn and to understand on this front but I'd prefer to keep it simple for now. So take your time, do what you can, don't be saddened by how much things may change from idea to implementation... and above all try to enjoy the process. It's going to be some effort. :-) To be honest i had made try to make this suggestion about 1 year ago, but at that time i hadn't finished it yet and just made a thread on what i had and people just kept flaming and it also died so i took it down. But now i just want to try and get the whole idea out since it is like a regret that i didn't complete what was probably the most ambitious suggestion i ever made. So this process is indeed very enjoyable, but at one point i got really mad at myself for wasting a few good days that i had last time planning all the ideas and then i ripped out all the design ideas from the notebook that i had wrote it down and threw it all away. But it feels like such a wasted effort to just throw it all away now that i come to think of it so i want to pen everything down to atone for my rashness. But right now chugging at day 4 and this thing is so immense in size i really wonder how long would i take to finish it, even if it doesn't really get through which like most of my suggestions which doesn't anyways, i just want to throw out this idea rather than hold onto it like a burden, and well the worry is how long would it take? Edited August 9, 2014 by Jacate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted August 9, 2014 Share Posted August 9, 2014 To be honest i had made try to make this suggestion about 1 year ago, but at that time i hadn't finished it yet and just made a thread on what i had and people just kept flaming and it also died so i took it down. But now i just want to try and get the whole idea out since it is like a regret that i didn't complete what was probably the most ambitious suggestion i ever made. So this process is indeed very enjoyable, but at one point i got really mad at myself for wasting a few good days that i had last time planning all the ideas and then i ripped out all the design ideas from the notebook that i had wrote it down and threw it all away. But it feels like such a wasted effort to just throw it all away now that i come to think of it so i want to pen everything down to atone for my rashness. But right now chugging at day 4 and this thing is so immense in size i really wonder how long would i take to finish it, even if it doesn't really get through which like most of my suggestions which doesn't anyways, i just want to throw out this idea rather than hold onto it like a burden, and well the worry is how long would it take? Having not read your idea myself I can offer no opinion on it's quality. I can tell you one thin though. One of the most difficult tasks as a designer is to properly convey an idea in your head to other people in a way that they will comprehend and hopefully get excited about. Plus a lot of people aren't very good at following an idea as it is presented so much as just reacting to what is front of them while blinded by previous experiences. So keep in mind that presentation is very important and then also expect that some of your audience just may not be good at looking at early design work. All that is to say that EVEN IF the idea is good it is not to say that it will be well received by the general public. So keep those flame shields up at all times! Back to the "how long will it take?". Well I'm afraid there is no answer anyone can give you. It's all up to you. If it's something you feel you must do, do it. regrets suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niryco Posted August 9, 2014 Author Share Posted August 9, 2014 Having not read your idea myself I can offer no opinion on it's quality. I can tell you one thin though. One of the most difficult tasks as a designer is to properly convey an idea in your head to other people in a way that they will comprehend and hopefully get excited about. Plus a lot of people aren't very good at following an idea as it is presented so much as just reacting to what is front of them while blinded by previous experiences. So keep in mind that presentation is very important and then also expect that some of your audience just may not be good at looking at early design work. All that is to say that EVEN IF the idea is good it is not to say that it will be well received by the general public. So keep those flame shields up at all times! Back to the "how long will it take?". Well I'm afraid there is no answer anyone can give you. It's all up to you. If it's something you feel you must do, do it. regrets suck! Thanks for the advice =) Will keep working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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