The Long And Short Of Melee Weapons.

[surrealavatar]

Well, as far as I can see, Charge Attacks are INSANELY overpowered. Why? Why would I bring down something so amazing? Why do this when that's all I do with my Zorens? Why do I say this after I've built insane charge speed, attack speed, charge damage, crit damage, and crit chance? Because, that's ALL I do with them. I can do maybe 3 charge attacks per second, so, moving on.

What's the problem? The problem is, the "Melee swing" button is pointless. Of course, you hold it to charge the hit, and keep holding it until it slams one out. It's amazing, I love Charge Attacks, don't get me wrong, but the normal melee attacks in the game simply have no purpose. And jump slamming the ground has little, to no use as well, since the AoE is actually extremely tiny, no matter what weapon you use.

So if any developers happen to drop by these forums, and see this thread, I implore you, can we maybe get some kind of benefit for hacking and slashing? Maybe ..there are some mods I missed that give a bonus? (I know about Pressure Point, I have it up to +28% melee damage, but I can't say I notice a difference.) Because as it stands now, Charge Attack damage simply overpowers, and makes normal attacking obsolete. Completely, and utterly useless. I know Zorens have like..the lowest base damage, but I've tried this with other weapons, what is the point of normally attacking other than doingmuch weaker damage at a not much faster rate?

[Nobsi]

I kind of disagree with you at some points. 

But youre right, the ground-slam thing is much too weak and has no purpose (exept of throwing people to the ground and letting the screen shake(fragor)).

[vats3]

<p>i agree in some ways the charge deals way  to much compared to swings, like lets say my duel heatswords they have a charge speed of about 1 second and 150 and i have maxed out a charage damage mod and put it on there making me do 375 every second with charge attacks and then i go invi add some crit chance so i can do some super crits and deal 750-1100 damage when with normal attacks i can incress the attack speed by 50% and damage by about the same but in the end i deal alot more damage witht them then any normal attacks could</p>

<p> </p>

<p>and about ground slams i find that my heavy axe with a cold mod is really funny, they get knocked down and slowed, by the time they get up again i have left atlest a clip of my gun in there body</p>

[LunaMoff]

I gotta agree with surrealavatar. Spamming the charge attack really seems like the best option for combat, the only thing that comes close it seems is the slide attack. I do my best not to diversify the moves I do just because spamming the charge attack over and over is so boring. There are so many awsome flashy moves and cool ways to kill the enemy in this game that it's frustrating that the best option is to do a single move over and over and over again. The devs did such an magnificent job with the designs and animations on the melee weapons, I want to use all of them effectively.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Deteno

[surrealavatar]

That's what I'm saying, adding diversity in ways to kill would be great. I really can't pick anything this game that I don't like yet. Well, the one thing would be the stealth, but they've already addressed that in the Livestream that it'll be something they're reworking eventually. (Hopefully sometime soon, as I'm a huge fan of stealth myself, getting spotted once and it being over is bah! :P) They seem to be addressing every possible bad point, not that charge attacks are bad, but I really would like my normal melee swings to do more. I mean they even added sort of "Combo animations" since every swing looks different, I personally love the Zoren combo and to use it and not get knocked back and stunned just because they don't would be nice. 

 

Tl;dr - I'm hoping basic attacks eventually gain some sort of utility or benefit, or maybe a buff to damage, so we can use them.

[Davoodoo]

The problem are mod numbers like always. +150% charge dmg compared to +42% melee dmg compared to +220% pistol dmg and +165% rifle dmg. Rank 5 pressure point should give +90% instead of 42% and it should have 10 ranks cap up to +165% dmg to even be on par with high charge dmg weapons. Atm swing melees are simply inferior.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Davoodoo

[Zanzibarr11]

The only time I use the regular melee attack is when im surrounded by infested and am low on energy and just happen to the carrying dual heat or dual ether swords and i just hack my way through the mass.

 

On a side note, not all melee weapons have good charge dmg. For example, the new bacon sword has horrible charge dmg similarily to the daggers and jaw sword. For those weapons, you are actually better off just tapping E until your target is dead. Their charge attk is just too blah to use.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Zanzibarr11

[AsteriskCGY]

I prefer to swing my Gram over charging it in most situations, But most short blades I want to charge. Which is why the Jaw and Mire don't seem to jive well with me. 

[KageNoShini]

I'm hoping that they diversify the melee system, maybe have a light/heavy attack style so there can be a combo system, kind of like vindictus, which could work if you set two keys to the different strikes, and still keep the mouse for gunplay, or just add a more varied melee animation, because I tire of watching a sword swing left and right all the time, or of the same really choppy motions of sword/dagger combos (These animations are really choppy, like it feels like the frame is just chopping away at something with a hatchet and not a blade/sword). So yea, i agree that the melee system is still lackluster and needs to be more varied.

[surrealavatar]

I'm hoping that they diversify the melee system, maybe have a light/heavy attack style so there can be a combo system, kind of like vindictus, which could work if you set two keys to the different strikes, and still keep the mouse for gunplay, or just add a more varied melee animation, because I tire of watching a sword swing left and right all the time, or of the same really choppy motions of sword/dagger combos (These animations are really choppy, like it feels like the frame is just chopping away at something with a hatchet and not a blade/sword). So yea, i agree that the melee system is still lackluster and needs to be more varied.

I played Vindictus for years, and I have to agree, the combo system in that game is one of the most incredible combat systems in any MMO that I've played. The combat felt steady, fluent and really left a feeling of impact on hits. Of course this game won't have the perfect melee system when it's only just starting out, and is in beta, but I'm just hoping we can point the devs in the right direction. And that they know to listen to smart players. R.I.P. Tribes: Ascend, you listened to the wrong players.

 

Sadly though, in the passed years, it seems games like SMNC and T:A have died because they listened to the wrong players, or ignored players (But I know this team won't, Steve and the bunch are awesome.) and just went on about their own idea's, so everyone left. I really don't want this game to ever end, I don't know what it is about this game, but no matter how much I play it, I don't want to stop, lol.

 

In Closing: But enough of my worship, overall, I think we can make due with the current system for a while, it "Works", and that's what matters, but an overhaul and maybe implementing a combo system would really spice up melee combo, ohh man! That would be so awesome! And different combo's with different strikes could have different types of effects, like a heavy stun or a radial knockback. Oh my god.. @_@; Ok, there's my wall of text. >_<

Edited April 15, 2013 by surrealavatar

[Anelyn]

The problem could be alleviated somehow if mods would work properly for normal melee attacks. For example Fangs being one of the GO TO weapon for melee attacks, it doesn't benefit from Organ Shatter at all (which isn't explained anywhere but on Wiki, so new players coming to game and never using Wiki will have no idea about it). Which pretty much cuts the potential dmg of melee Fang in half. Daggers have decent - high crit chance. Also they attack very fast, and perform multiple attacks (3 with each weapon per click resulting in 6 total hits for 1 click) which increase the odds of scoring criticals. Yet you can't boost that critical damage. Melee dmg already capped at 47% if am not mistaken.

So question is why let us boost dmg for normal melee criticals when we can't really benefit from it.

[surrealavatar]

I have to agree, I don't understand why boosting it doesn't work on the fang, and +47% is the MAXIMUM? What is that going to do if I somehow hit 30 damage per fang hit? Give me..another .. 13-14 damage on it? When you think about higher level targets with insane hp, or even heavier mini-boss type targets like ancients or heavy grineer units like the Gunner/Napalm or even a Commander, you're sort of boned when it comes to the Fang. I really hope they either buff the damage of basic attack mods to like..max +130% or something relative, because I just spent 12 hours making the thing, with the thought of someone telling me "Someone needs to try the fang."

 

That could be directed as my fault, which, .. well, it is. But hey, here's to hoping right? I think the melee basic attacks deserve a little bit of a boost, as for the combo system, the only real thing I can think of to benefit people who don't have mouse 4 and mouse 5 buttons like myself is, make a key switch between "Gun" and "Blade" modes, of course, the switch would be the animation of taking out and holding the blade(s) and switching to holding the gun, as it innately does with your current gun after attacking with the melee weapon.

 

The change would be pressing a certain key, (V or something, rebindable) and giving the proper animation, or we could make it instant to alleviate any extra seconds getting us killed. However, switching to a "Blade mode" stance would give you the benefit of left click being light attacks, and right clicks being heavier, slower attacks. Holding left OR right would be a charge attack. That takes away from the "E" being melee but..I kinda..made my melee mouse4, because yeah, no, I couldn't do that. But that's my two cents about gun/blade combat and how it can effectively change for better or for worse, my opinion isn't law, and this may not be for the best. That's for everyone else as well as the devs to think about.

 

(Wall of freaking text, I am so sorry, I don't know where it all comes from.)

Edited April 15, 2013 by surrealavatar

[rasunin]

so at the end of the day, what is buggy about the Fang? the damage cap? the organ shatter mod not working? because if its intended, its basically just a fun weapon to play with due to its insane fast attack speed and animations. lol...

[aiMute]

I'd like to see melee damage and attack speed to work for both melee and charge attacks and have charge attack only mods removed, so people will use both attacks instead of sticking to one, bringing diversity to the melee (some weapons will still be more effective at one or another).

[surrealavatar]

As much as I'd like to agree Vesper, I don't think removing the Charge Attack only mods will solve the issue. I think Charge Attacks are fine, but with my maxed out Reflex Coil and attack speed increase from Fury, I can do about 4 charge attacks in 1 second with my Dual Zorens, and that is ridiculous, why even normally attack? The fact is, this can be applied to all weapons with the right mods, ultimately "Deleting" the need to attack normally. I think attacking normally should bring some benefit, like maybe if debuff mods were introduced in the future, debuff meaning "Severed Tendon", or "Bleeding" of some sort for weapons, to apply maybe a sort of damage debuff or DoT (Other than Ember and stuff with burning, etc) but ONLY applies to basic attacks, or make things like Freeze, and Stun from Electric damage only apply through basic attacks. Though I still think the combo system is the most badass thought yet. XD

[Pearlspade]

I'm all for buffing pressure point to a reasonable level to compete with charge attacks say 150% maxed. I don't think nerfing or removing charged attack mods would be a good idea seeing as guns which can be used at range can do the same damage as my maxed gram in a single shot (500+). Basically I think pressure point definitely needs a buff but don't lower charge damage just to meet normal swings damage instead buff the normal swings.

[newnar]

I disagree. Jump attacks are very useful to quickly dispose of enemies via finisher. I use it with my Gram very often. On heavy melee weaps like the Gram it has a large enough aoe and at the same time even on things like Dual Heats, it's useful when you are on top of a container without ammo and with a hundred chargers below you.

[aiMute]

Got my dusty Bo out of closet and tried it against infected... it was super ineffective - I attacked charger to see if I could kill him with normal attacks... I didnt... Whats worse - Bo doesnt stagger ancients with charge attack, while Cronus and Ether Daggers do. Bo - support weapon with good stun and low damage... except there was no stun.

 

Melee in warframe is flawed, some weapons work like S#&$ (Bo example) other are simply OP (its not fun feeling that you could do more with FotM weapon). When attacking you either use charged attacks (with almost every weapon in the game). or you spam normal attacks (with Dual Ethers cause they are just too good), there's no in-between.

 

Charged attacks - ignore armor (except on Ether Daggers, which suck unless heavily modded - btw its another problem of warframe - stick enough +damage/elemental/multishot and you win, no brains needed), allow you to charge before engaging and on the move and do much better damage. This could be used in different ways, like not allowing some weapons to charge on move (no sprinting, only "walking") but have faster charge, increased criticals on charge/normal attacks, being immobilized during charge animation (like heavy melee, but so it would work for some medium or even light melee), add multihit properties (normal attacks against few opponents/charge against many), increased stagger on charge (Im looking at you, Bo) etc etc. Also AP on charge is fine too if charge is useful in some other way. Btw Ether Daggers charge is quite interesting because you do 2 hits with left and right dagger, thus the target has to be right in front of you to get hit twice, which could be a nice balancing feature for DHS.

There are ways to make weapons different, yet usable for both normal and charge attacks (also slash, jump and finishing (these take too long, hello chargers) attacks because now there's not much difference between most weapons (duals/heavy/blades) except useless features (increased attack speed on gram/reduced on scindo, you dont autoattack anyway (unless you want to shake the S#&$ out of teammates) this also makes fragor similar to gram/scindo) or OP stats (charge king DHS, autoattack king Dual Ethers and some others).

Edited April 17, 2013 by Vesper11

[CrazyCanadian24]

Well, I'd have to agree wi- F*** it, trying to contribute anything at this point would be redundant, so I'll leave you with this instead:

 

[insert everything everything everyone else has posted here]

[krisp]

Dual ether swords are very good at normal melee swings.  Maybe the other weapons should be brought up to their level.

[Klutzy]

My biggest gripe with melee is that its way too easy to get staggered.

 

   Charge attacks, according to one of the loading screen tips, are designed to be easily interrupted.  This kinda implies that normal melee swings arent as interruptable, but they end up subject to the exact same mechanics as charge swings.  Get too close to a Grineer and they'll bash you with their rifle butt, causing you to stagger no matter what you were trying to do.  Try to just mash your way through a crowd of Chargers, Leapers and Runners, and one of em is more than likely to make you lose your balance.

   When I see a Grineer Heavy Gunner, Bombard, or Napalmer, I like to run towards them with my Fang and use a jump attack to knock them down, preventing them from dealing damage.  Sounds like a great idea, but in practice the Heavy will always hit you with its stomp first, sending you off on your face.  The only way to actually pull this off isnt to use the melee attack, but to just do a flying kick.  Whats the point of a jump attack knockdown then?

   My first instinct when a Grineer Roller comes around is, again, to try to do a jump attack, hoping to smash that ball when it gets close.  If this worked, I think it'd be a fantastic counter, instead of trying to shoot something that small moving that fast while that close.  Its fairly difficult to track something moving at such speed in short ra-- oh, topic for another thread.  Rollers are super amazing though, and can make you stagger while in mid-air, so we're stuck empting clips into the floor.

   One more thing while I'm on the supject of knockdowns...  why oh why can a moa interrupt me, but I cant interrupt them?  A jump attack knockdown should knock one of those orange Moas on their &amp;#&#33;, stopping it from using its stomp.