A Few Things To Consider Regarding Nerfing.

[Orbister]

eh.....i think people just $#*(@ about nerfing the better weapons because they play missions with level 1-20 enemies or they get killed by other players with these weapons that the complainers don't have. Noobs get what they want i suppose.

So... you say that "noobs" are the ones that actually embrace and choose challenge? you must be another one who hasn't heard of forma because you think that vanilla weapons need to be "STROOOONG!"

[insaninater]

Why not add a weapon with infinite ammo that doesnt really need ammo because once you press the trigger it kills all and EVERY enemy no matter how far it is? how about if we actually get rid of weapons altogether and give ALL frames only ONE ability called "kill everything" that kills everything in the whole map just by pressing the 1 key, and why not make it free to use also! no energy consumption at all! maybe... maybe this is too far... but maybe we could just win the game when we enter our password at the login screen! you input your password and the next thing you see is a message that says "you have destroyed all the things and you won the game!"

 

Because leaving existing weapons alone totally means that. You're being stupid, i'm not advocating power creep, i'm advocating against reverse power creep. I want to see no buffs and no nerfs to existing weapons, and want to see all the tweaks done pre-release.

[CptFaustas]

Because leaving existing weapons alone totally means that. You're being stupid, i'm not advocating power creep, i'm advocating against reverse power creep. I want to see no buffs and no nerfs to existing weapons, and want to see all the tweaks done pre-release.

And i want to ride a unicorn.

[vaugahn]

except things get nerfed far more often than they get buffed, and to a much more extreme extent. Again, the sniper buff compared to the launcher nerf is a good example.

 

Here, let's play a game.

 

I'm going to give you a list of over 100 weapons, each with 10+ attribute statistics associated with it. Now, your job is to balance all of these against each other, while keeping each one unique and interesting. Oh, and you can only make one set of changes a week, and if you mess up you might lose your job.

 

How many tries does it take you to get all those weapons balanced? One? Ten? More?

 

This game is in development. These balance changes are going to happen, and they might not always be right. They're going to keep on happening until things are balanced. Saying that they're happening because "oh pro-nerfing people hate X weapon!" is just as insane as saying that every single weapon in this game is going to get nerfed. It's clear you had good intentions making this thread, but not to sound rude or anything, you're way off the mark.

 

Edit: These changes are all being done pre-release. This game is in beta.

Edited August 22, 2014 by vaugahn

[insaninater]

Because they are absurdly abused. To what end you even need that much firepower? Getting to high waves of defense or survival can be done with a lot of weapons.

 

Are you THAT dense that you can't see reasons behind nerfs at all?

 

"abused" in this context basically means "people are playing the game in a way i don't like and this makes me mad!"

 

I can see the reason behind the occasional nerf, but it's gotten so absurdly out of control. We should not see a nerf every update.

 

 

So... you say that "noobs" are the ones that actually embrace and choose challenge? you must be another one who hasn't heard of forma because you think that vanilla weapons need to be "STROOOONG!"

 

The option to embrace challenge will always be there for you. You can use whatever gear you want.

[Orbister]

Because leaving existing weapons alone totally means that. You're being stupid, i'm not advocating power creep, i'm advocating against reverse power creep. I want to see no buffs and no nerfs to existing weapons, and want to see all the tweaks done pre-release.

sorry mate pre-release is not an option, the game is considered beta, you can argue it is not really beta, but according to DE it is, that means changes can happen, and that is awesome, because we have a voice, we can help make this game perfect, and that is what has been happening, it is really really sad that you lack skill, intelligence and knowledge to play this game without 500 grenades... why don't you check the wiki or something? maybe you can learn how to play the game without exploits.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Orbister

[Dalawantahr]

Yes yes yes, you are all right. But nerf is not necessary a good thing. So instead of arguing the need of nerf, why don't we talk about how to prevent nerfing.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Dalawantahr

[xethier]

well, this escalated quickly.

 

i'm expecting a lock in the near future.

 

i still don't understand why people get so frustrated about nerfs in this game.

there is no end-game to speak of. (i know, i know, endless defense / survival, etc)

but even with mk1 weapons you can go through t4 missions easily to 30 minutes or so.

a good group could go an hour. (or more)

 

so by nerfing, all you're doing is decreasing the time-expenditure necessary to reach difficult content.

 

oh, and making things ever-so-slightly more difficult on new players. kinda. maybe. with that single weapon. ish...

 

i'll say it again, your expectations aren't being met, and you're upset about it.

i understand that attitude, but i don't think it's really going to be beneficial to the larger game.

[Orbister]

Yes yes yes, you are all right. But nerf is not necessa

Yes it is, do you think DE enjoys all the whining after they nerf something? if it wasn't necessary and if they didn't care they wouldn't nerf anything,  because nerfing IS NOT FUN, it brings all the angry incompetent exploiters to the forums to complain about not being able to exploit a broken mechanic anymore.

[Dalawantahr]

Yes it is, do you think DE enjoys all the whining after they nerf something? if it wasn't necessary and if they didn't care they wouldn't nerf anything,  because nerfing IS NOT FUN, it brings all the angry incompetent exploiters to the forums to complain about not being able to exploit a broken mechanic anymore.

So broken mechanics must be avoided, yes?

[CptFaustas]

"abused" in this context basically means "people are playing the game in a way i don't like and this makes me mad!"

 

I can see the reason behind the occasional nerf, but it's gotten so absurdly out of control. We should not see a nerf every update.

 

 

 

The option to embrace challenge will always be there for you. You can use whatever gear you want.

People blaberring about nerfs is making me mad.

 

People telling me that i can't do ODD without penta were making me mad.

 

People who only see 1 way of abusing something are making me mad.

 

You can do whatever the hell you want, don't force it onto me. But you can't because your "zomg i shoot everywhere kill everything in 5 seconds" weapons are being forced by the people who use them.

 

Also if you can't see the difference between "playing not the way i like" (which is rushing) and "that's stupidly op and makes gameplay bad" the you are indeed dense.

 

I see no point in this discussion since you don't try to discuss anything, you simply want me to think and be the same as you.

[Agullimux]

I don't mind ammo nerfs, but they could have buffed some damage at the same time.  I mean 25 times less ammo but not even double the damage?(penta)

edit: I'm not gonna shout nerf other weapons, but it kinda absurd how much rifles got ammo. 

And should snipers received a bit better buff?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Agullimux

[Orbister]

I just don't understand how a Penta player isn't proud of being one... when they balanced the amount of ammo the first thing i thought was "nice... this makes the Penta a more interesting weapon... i accept the challenge" and that challenge is just playing efficiently, why are there so many players in this game that don't want to be efficient? having to carry 500 grenades just to succeed is a big display of weakness and failure... come one guys... i applaud the Penta players that remain, and still use the weapons efficiently.

 

All of you ammo protesters are basically screaming the following:

 

I AM VERY BAD AT THIS GAME PLEASE LET ME CARRY 500 GRENADES AGAIN BECAUSE IF I DON'T I WILL FAIL!

 

It surprises me that you don't see how embarrassing this is...

Edited August 22, 2014 by Orbister

[insaninater]

Here, let's play a game.

 

I'm going to give you a list of over 100 weapons, each with 10+ attribute statistics associated with it. Now, your job is to balance all of these against each other, while keeping each one unique and interesting. Oh, and you can only make one set of changes a week, and if you mess up you might lose your job.

 

How many tries does it take you to get all those weapons balanced? One? Ten? More?

 

This game is in development. These balance changes are going to happen, and they might not always be right. They're going to keep on happening until things are balanced. Saying that they're happening because "oh pro-nerfing people hate X weapon!" is just as insane as saying that every single weapon in this game is going to get nerfed. It's clear you had good intentions making this thread, but not to sound rude or anything, you're way off the mark.

 

Edit: These changes are all being done pre-release. This game is in beta.

 

I meant pre-release of the weapon, so the weapon gets any changes it's going to get before being released to the players.

 

And why do you think everything won't get nerfed. Consider this:

 

Weapon A has a slight advantage over Weapon B, Weapon B has a slight advantage over Weapon C.

 

Weapon A gets nerfed, now Weapon B > Weapon C > Weapon A

 

Now Weapon B is the most powerful, so it gets nerfed.

 

Weapon C > Weapon A > Weapon B

 

You're just reshuffling, you're not making any long term changes. This is what i mean by everything could get nerfed and the nerfers would still not be satisfied.

 

I understand that it's a huge undertaking to balance these things out, but unless these large-scale nerfs at least slow down, the game is going to start being a lot less fun.

[vaugahn]

So broken mechanics must be avoided, yes?

 

Yes. That was literally the whole point behind the ammo changes. 

[-Snowy_Nights-]

So... you say that "noobs" are the ones that actually embrace and choose challenge? you must be another one who hasn't heard of forma because you think that vanilla weapons need to be "STROOOONG!"

actually no, the point i'm trying to make is that all the stronger weapons i see shouldn't be nerfed because a noob that uses it complains how op a certain part of it is or that the said person is being killed by it says that the dps is to high, it should be nerfed by those who are veterans at the game that will say "ok so the penta needs a nerf on the ammo count because it is a little too op to just fire over 540 rounds, i say the ammo count should be *insert number here*". besides, i could care less about the vanilla weapons being to "strong". or long story short, i'd rather see veterans giving nerfing/buffing feedback rather than noobs.

[insaninater]

sorry mate pre-release is not an option, the game is considered beta, you can argue it is not really beta, but according to DE it is, that means changes can happen, and that is awesome, because we have a voice, we can help make this game perfect, and that is what has been happening, it is really really sad that you lack skill, intelligence and knowledge to play this game without 500 grenades... why don't you check the wiki or something? maybe you can learn how to play the game without exploits.

 

Oh cut the personal attack S#&$. I didn't even really use explosive weapons much apart from angstrum. This is exactly what i mean by players who are too blinded by their hatred of other players to see the big picture.

 

I'm actually rank 12, and i own every prime frame and weapon, just to dispel any misconceptions you might have about my experience in this game.

Edited August 22, 2014 by insaninater

[-Snowy_Nights-]

I just don't understand how a Penta player isn't proud of being one... when they balanced the amount of ammo the first thing i thought was "nice... this makes the Penta a more interesting weapon... i accept the challenge" and that challenge is just playing efficiently, why are there so many players in this game that don't want to be efficient? having to carry 500 grenades just to succeed is a big display of weakness and failure... come one guys... i applaud the Penta players that remain, and still use the weapons efficiently.

 

All of you ammo protesters are basically screaming the following:

 

I AM VERY BAD AT THIS GAME PLEASE LET ME CARRY 500 GRENADES AGAIN BECAUSE IF I DON'T I WILL FAIL!

 

It surprises me that you don't see how embarrassing this is...

besides, those people can just carry ammo drum if they want more ammo lol

[xethier]

Oh cut the personal attack S#&$. I didn't even really use explosive weapons much apart from angstrum. This is exactly what i mean by players who are too blinded by their hatred of other players to see the big picture.

 

methinks thou doth protest too much sir.

 

the "larger picture" here is that nerfs aren't ruining the game, they're reducing what the devs (and players) see as a flaw or broken mechanic.

balancing an ongoing game with new elements being introduced constantly is by it's very definition a moving target.

 

you can't leave everything static and introduce new elements constantly without mucking something up.

hence buffs and nerfs... 

[Orbister]

Oh cut the personal attack S#&$. I didn't even really use explosive weapons much apart from angstrum. This is exactly what i mean by players who are too blinded by their hatred of other players to see the big picture.

I didn't mean to personally attack you... i sincerely recommended the wiki, its useful, and for the record you called me stupid a couple of posts ago and i let that pass, check again who is attacking who, and i don't have any hard feelings towards you man, this is about the weapons... the problem is that your perception of "nerfing" is very superficial because they don't nerf to make weapons all the same, the nerf to make weapons make sense by themselves.

[Dalawantahr]

well, this escalated quickly.

 

i'm expecting a lock in the near future.

 

i still don't understand why people get so frustrated about nerfs in this game.

there is no end-game to speak of. (i know, i know, endless defense / survival, etc)

but even with mk1 weapons you can go through t4 missions easily to 30 minutes or so.

a good group could go an hour. (or more)

 

so by nerfing, all you're doing is decreasing the time-expenditure necessary to reach difficult content.

 

oh, and making things ever-so-slightly more difficult on new players. kinda. maybe. with that single weapon. ish...

 

i'll say it again, your expectations aren't being met, and you're upset about it.

i understand that attitude, but i don't think it's really going to be beneficial to the larger game.

My concern are on point 3 and 4 from OP's post. I can't know if something is good - too good - OP - Or even broken and will be nerfed at some point in the future. I can't know what the majority of the community will say on a frame/weapon, and then rate it broken and need to be fixed (nerfed). Before I didn't think about nerf before I choose to upgrade anything, it was "I like it" reason was enough. But now I have to guess if this thing is going to be nerf or not. This for me is a valid concern.

[insaninater]

methinks thou doth protest too much sir.

 

the "larger picture" here is that nerfs aren't ruining the game, they're reducing what the devs (and players) see as a flaw or broken mechanic.

balancing an ongoing game with new elements being introduced constantly is by it's very definition a moving target.

 

you can't leave everything static and introduce new elements constantly without mucking something up.

hence buffs and nerfs... 

 

What buffs?

 

The buffs are a joke compared to the nerfs right now. If the sniper nerf was anywhere near the scale of the launcher nerf, i wouldn't have a problem. That could actually be seen as balancing the game, but right now, the scale of buffs compared to the scale of nerfs is completely negligible.

[vaugahn]

I meant pre-release of the weapon, so the weapon gets any changes it's going to get before being released to the players.

 

And why do you think everything won't get nerfed. Consider this:

 

Weapon A has a slight advantage over Weapon B, Weapon B has a slight advantage over Weapon C.

 

Weapon A gets nerfed, now Weapon B > Weapon C > Weapon A

 

Now Weapon B is the most powerful, so it gets nerfed.

 

Weapon C > Weapon A > Weapon B

 

You're just reshuffling, you're not making any long term changes. This is what i mean by everything could get nerfed and the nerfers would still not be satisfied.

 

I understand that it's a huge undertaking to balance these things out, but unless these large-scale nerfs at least slow down, the game is going to start being a lot less fun.

 

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not get it.

 

Things don't get nerfed because they're the most powerful in the game. Every game will have top-tier items, that's natural. Things get nerfed because they allow players something they should not have within the structure of the game, or give a player an unfair advantage. And before you say something like "oh it's PvE there are no unfair advantages", stop and think for a second. The unfair advantage is relative to the other weapons available, and the capabilities of other players.

 

Now, it's possible you could make a good case for less nerfing. That's not out of the question, and I'm sure there are reasonable and well thought out points there. However you're so hilariously misinformed as to why balance changes take place that the chances of that happening here are close to zero.

 

Oh, and what buffs? How about the absolutely massive ones to the Flux Rifle, Spectra, and Acrid? Or the huge buff many weapons got when damage 2.0 came out? You're cherry-picking instances that support your argument and ignoring everything else.

Edited August 22, 2014 by vaugahn

[Dalawantahr]

Yes. That was literally the whole point behind the ammo changes. 

My point is it has to be avoided by DE the first time they introduce anything. Hard to do.

[insaninater]

I didn't mean to personally attack you... i sincerely recommended the wiki, its useful, and for the record you called me stupid a couple of posts ago and i let that pass, check again who is attacking who, and i don't have any hard feelings towards you man, this is about the weapons... the problem is that your perception of "nerfing" is very superficial because they don't nerf to make weapons all the same, the nerf to make weapons make sense by themselves.

 

Again, rank 12, every prime weapon and frame owned, without spending a cent on the game.

 

The noob card you're trying to play really doesn't apply here.