Every Warframe Should Be Able To Super Jump (Excalibur Should Get A Melee Boost Ability Instead)

[Mak_Gohae]

If you aren't capable of actually looking at the levels and realizing why most of them are so horizontal (FYI: it is because of the lack of vertical movement) and why several rooms have oh-so-convenient rockslides and such (FYI: this is because most Warframes cannot jump high) that you can walk to the roof on I really don't know what to say.

 

But it's fairly obvious that the lack of vertical mobility creates a design constraint on the tiles.

 

You are saying 2+1=4.

 

You are saying that all of this resides on jump with no reason.

 

Adding "verticality" would do NOTHING to the game except add some platforming sections which i guess could be fun but it's not some tremendous thing that is needed.

[Xtorma]

They say they are going to add more powers eventually, no reason why they couldn't just add a generic slot with a few abilities that everyone can use. super jump, speed, etc... any really minor power.

[MJ12]

You are saying 2+1=4.

 

You are saying that all of this resides on jump with no reason.

 

Adding "verticality" would do NOTHING to the game except add some platforming sections which i guess could be fun but it's not some tremendous thing that is needed.

 

Are you incapable of understanding why the lack of verticality in the game may be related to the fact that only one Warframe can jump really high (note: jumping is how Warframes move vertically)?

 

And it would do 'nothing'? It'd allow more realistic-looking levels without convenient rockslides/etc to make sure you can get to someplace you need. It'd allow levels which feel more like asteroid bases or ships instead of just flat buildings. It'd allow for more creative level design, as well as make sure you don't need precise 'this is how you walk up to the second floor' points. It'd allow for more acrobatics. It'd allow for more sniper nests and hidden secrets placed above and below the main 'plane' where most of the action is taking place. There is literally nothing which would be harmed by every Warframe having some way to jump high.

[Mak_Gohae]

Are you incapable of understanding why the lack of verticality in the game may be related to the fact that only one Warframe can jump really high (note: jumping is how Warframes move vertically)?

 

Yes, i dont believe your theory that everything revolves around one frame.

 

 

And it would do 'nothing'? It'd allow more realistic-looking levels without convenient rockslides/etc to make sure you can get to someplace you need. It'd allow levels which feel more like asteroid bases or ships instead of just flat buildings. It'd allow for more creative level design, as well as make sure you don't need precise 'this is how you walk up to the second floor' points. It'd allow for more acrobatics. It'd allow for more sniper nests and hidden secrets placed above and below the main 'plane' where most of the action is taking place. There is literally nothing which would be harmed by every Warframe having some way to jump high.

 

Realistically......no one builds up without easy access.

So if we are going realistic on this argument.....build up does NOT require jump AT ALL.

 

REALISTICALLY parkour uses things that people dont normally consider as usable to climb up, so stepping on a couple of boxes to climb higher is realistic. And what are these rock slides that you are flipping out about? Cause i only know of 2 in the whole asteroid level and one has those ramps with those rails on it next to it that you can climb over them with a fast frame or one with a rush mod.

 

 

 

They say they are going to add more powers eventually, no reason why they couldn't just add a generic slot with a few abilities that everyone can use. super jump, speed, etc... any really minor power.

 

Oh yeah, they did mention generic powers.

Maybe this guy's dream can come true and he will be able to unrealistically jump around with the heaviest frame.

[Gaiters]

I wasn't aware anyone used superjump... :O So, +1 give it to all the warframes.

[MJ12]

Realistically......no one builds up without easy access.

So if we are going realistic on this argument.....build up does NOT require jump AT ALL.

 

REALISTICALLY parkour uses things that people dont normally consider as usable to climb up, so stepping on a couple of boxes to climb higher is realistic. And what are these rock slides that you are flipping out about? Cause i only know of 2 in the whole asteroid level and one has those ramps with those rails on it next to it that you can climb over them with a fast frame or one with a rush mod.

Except half the time you're not going to built-up places. You're going through vents, grates, maintenance passages (which only need Ospreys to be able to negotiate them) and so on. And you know, seeing the tower of stacked boxes coincidentally where you need to climb up is kind of immersion-destroying the tenth time it happens. Something that could be solved by letting people jump higher with no negative impact to the game.

Do you have an argument as to how "all Warframes can jump high" would hurt the game or do you just hate the idea of change? Seriously, your argument has been just inanely repeating "the game is okay as is" which is not a counterargument to "this would make the game better". 

 

Oh yeah, they did mention generic powers.

Maybe this guy's dream can come true and he will be able to unrealistically jump around with the heaviest frame.

Rhino can move his body fast enough to deflect bullets with a sword. This implies physical strength and speed dozens of times beyond any human.

You know what's actually unrealistic here?

The fact that these superstrong power armored ninjas can't jump more than their own height, because that requires way the hell less strength than "blocking bullets". Turns out being strong realistically tends to mean you can jump high! Who'd have thought.

[Mak_Gohae]

Except half the time you're not going to built-up places. You're going through vents, grates, maintenance passages (which only need Ospreys to be able to negotiate them) and so on. And you know, seeing the tower of stacked boxes coincidentally where you need to climb up is kind of immersion-destroying the tenth time it happens. Something that could be solved by letting people jump higher with no negative impact to the game.

 

 

My immersion isn't destroyed after the tenth time. By the way.... weren't you here when those piled up boxes were less easily identifiable and a lots of people got lost so they ended up making them super obvious?

 

Guess what is going to happen when there are NO boxes at all.

Yeah.

Do you have an argument as to how "all Warframes can jump high" would hurt the game or do you just hate the idea of change? Seriously, your argument has been just inanely repeating "the game is okay as is" which is not a counterargument to "this would make the game better". 

 

Realistically we know that all warframes have different abilities.  Some have high health some have low health, some have more energy,  some are slower, etc.

 

So, realistically, since they are all different that means that not all are going to be able to jump.

Rhino can move his body fast enough to deflect bullets with a sword. This implies physical strength and speed dozens of times beyond any human.

You know what's actually unrealistic here?

 

That you said that since Rhino can block bullets using his ARMS that means that he should be able to jump high with his LEGS?

The fact that these superstrong power armored ninjas can't jump more than their own height, because that requires way the hell less strength than "blocking bullets". Turns out being strong realistically tends to mean you can jump high! Who'd have thought.

 

Ignoring the fact that blocking bullets can involve other things like the material used to block or the method of blocking which can be done by deflecting the bullets to a different path instead of straight up stopping it.........they are carrying a whole mess of equipment already.

 

And if "being strong" the only thing needed to jump high....... how come powerlifters dont compete in high jump competitions?

 

[Manjaro]

The problems with Super Jump being a unique ability are manifold:

 

1. If the areas reachable only via superjumping are too important/advantageous, it makes Excalibur a must-use Warframe. The only other frame which could theoretically reach those areas will be Loki (due to Decoy/Switch Teleport) and thus limits viable options

 

2. If these areas aren't, it makes Superjump largely a convenience power.

 

3. Superjump runs off of a non-regenerating (by default) energy supply and even when you can regenerate it it takes about 16 seconds to regenerate the energy used (with  max power efficiency + an energy siphon).

 

4. Being able to jump really high is a pretty generic ninja power. I mean, that's basically part of every legendary ninja arsenal in all existence. It shouldn't really be limited to one Warframe.

 

5. Because of random map design, Superjump's effectiveness is extremely variable dependent on the RNG gods and what they give you.

 

6. The fact that you have to upgrade Superjump a ton to actually get a good amount of air makes me sad.

 

7. As a third ability, Superjump is a rare. Despite how limited it is in use, it's still a Rare. This creates a perverse incentive where Superjump cards are valuable as fusion fodder above and beyond the power's actual usefulness as, you know, a power.

 

8. Wallrunning lets you reach areas that you'd normally have to Superjump to. Superjump doesn't work in-air, so you can't synergize it with a wallrun.

 

Now, all of these make me think that Superjump should be given to all Warframes. Hold space to charge a jump, let go when fully charged to jump really high. It'll let everyone look cool, give slower frames a bit of skill-based mobility, synergizes with the increasing number of acrobatic moves, and allows Excalibur a useful third ability. What would that be?

 

I suggest...

 

Inner Knight (Rare)

 

EXCALIBUR channels additional power to its musculature, improving stamina, hit recovery, attack speed, charge attack speed, and melee weapon damage for a limited period of time.

 

75 energy?

 

10/15/20/25 second duration

 

Infinite Stamina for duration, +10/15/20/25% melee/charge damage, attack, and charge speed

 

Immune to stagger (but not knockdown) for the duration of the power

 

That emphasizes that Excalibur is a Warframe focused on melee combat (like its description implies), provides a unique buff power, and gives Excalibur temporary additional mobility (infinite sprint for a short period), defense (infinite blocking), and lethality (bonus melee damage/speed) that helps with its role as the basic 'jack of all trades' starting Warframe.

I'm cool with all of that but the infinite stamina thing, seems twofold. on one side it's good if you block and run, or just block in general. but if you're just running it seems about the same as volt's flash running ability. Not the same thing?

How about rush maxed, Marathon maxed(for when the effect of inner knight runs out), and flow max? you woundn't run extremely fast but you'd be just as close to volt's run ability speed plus with high enough energy and stamina you run forever(if you could and make volt's speed move useless compared) and inner knight would just recovery stamina while you use it without running out; 75 energy is nothing at a high enough flow upgrade. so it's a tad bit exploitable, but i do believe super jump comes down to being useless half the time. you're right, they should give excalibur something more frequent than occasional. 

[Morgo]

Guys, you are missing the point with this. The game doesn't pretend to be hyper realistic. Jumping higher neither won't be realistic. C'mon, wallrunning is not realistic. What we should discuss more is the aplication of it.

 

As told before, In my opinion super jump for everyone could be too much, but charged jumps or double jumps could give the designers new paths to follow. 

 

This game doesn't need to be like mirror's edge, but at least, would be good to be able to jump up to the ventilation systems, or maybe on corpus ships, little tunnels designed for the ospreys acces. Crawling would be also good for this kind of scenarios.

 

The thing here is to allow multiple paths to advance on the ships, bases, or whatever. The more skills you have, the more possibilites to do it. Kind of the dynamic of Zelda games. Each tool, or power, give you the possibility to advance in a path it was closed before. That could give groups more decisions, instead of charging forward and shoot everyone. 

 

Path A, combat, Path B high terrain, Path C stealthy enter

 

As someone suggested, submod slots for having access to certain movility skills, or other special actions would also be really nice. Those slots could be achieved with the mastery level, giving more depth to the concept.

[MJ12]

Ignoring the fact that blocking bullets can involve other things like the material used to block or the method of blocking which can be done by deflecting the bullets to a different path instead of straight up stopping it.........they are carrying a whole mess of equipment already.

 

And if "being strong" the only thing needed to jump high....... how come powerlifters dont compete in high jump competitions?

 

They carry one longarm, one sidearm, and a weapon. None of this impacts their movement speed. Also, do you understand strength:weight ratios at all? Yes, being strong in the arms means you have strong legs because, and this might be shocking, they're made of the same stuff. Maybe if Rhino had huge beefy arms and tiny spindly legs like a Grineer you'd have something resembling an argument but your argument right now is "the Orokin gave Rhino crappy legs because they wanted to, nevermind that they can make tons of really strong artificial muscles".

 

Deflecting bullets requires fantastically fast-contracting, high-strength musculature, superhumanly so. We're not talking 'powerlifter' here. We're talking "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive..." how did that last bit go? Oh right, "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound." Human strength levels are irrelevant to this discussion because Tenno are going to be so far beyond human strength levels the extra 50 or 100 kg a powerlifter has over a high jumper is irrelevant. If Tenno have, say, 10 times human strength (this is a low-ball number, since they wield 50+kg warhammers, can cut through inches of metal plate with a sword, etc), Rhino being twice the size of Excalibur is going to be the equivalent of a really light backpack. Except Rhino also has twice the muscles. Unless Rhino is literally 20 meters tall you're not going to see being big impact their jumping abilities at this point.

 

Realistically Tenno should be able to jump 30-50 feet into the air and run at 30+ mph for hours, but I'm more than willing to settle for only 10 feet into the air for gamebalance reasons. Superhuman agility is incredibly fun in and of itself (play [PROTOTYPE] or its sequel to see, or even Infamous) and the fact that you think 'realism' actually counters the idea that all Tenno should be  superhumanly agile (instead of supporting it) is silly.

 

As to the rest of your posts, "guess what's going to happen when there's no boxes at all"? Well, since you know you can jump that high you'll... know you can jump through the hole in the ceiling and get there? Put a waypoint on it like an assassination target? There's a billion different ways to make the game simultaneously more immersive, the Tenno seem more incredible, and

 

It's just that you're mono-maniacally focused on refusing to let Warframes jump really high because ??? (as I noted it's not at all realistic that Warframes can't jump very high, because with the strength-weight ratios we're talking about to swing a 50kg hammer around or cut an armored guy in half with a sword, being able to jump 20 feet vertical is actually more of an expected side effect than something you'd specifically design for).

Edited April 15, 2013 by MJ12

[__Kanade__]

No, Super Jump is for Excaliber and Excaliber alone, shurikens are already being made available to everyone, taking away a unique skill from Ash who is the only frame closest to being a true ninja, now it's being made to be used by other less-ninja like frames. Making Shurikens stronger or whatever their going to do for his first skill won't change the fact that it's no longer unique

 

Rhino is the last frame that needs something as situational as Super Jump. He's this slow, hard hitting frame, not an agile light footed 'can jump 6 feet high' frame.

Edited April 15, 2013 by __Kanade__

[Pathyriel]

I never use super jump with 'Cal... replace the power, with almost anything and it will be more useful.

[Quetzhal]

Well, jumping isn't really the only way to move vertically. You can chain several vertical wallruns together, you can do a horizontal wallrun, chain it into a vertical one, back into a horizontal one, back into a vertical one... In a small enough room, you could in theory chain horizontal wallruns together and still climb higher, since the release pushes you upwards. You could do a walljump, which sends you a decent distance upwards and a huge distance horizontally...

Which are all a lot more awesome than "jump really high".

That said, I do get - and agree with - what you're saying. Superjump has always felt... off to me, as a power. I never really understood it.

[MJ12]

No, Super Jump is for Excaliber and Excaliber alone, shurikens are already being made available to everyone, taking away a unique skill from Ash who is the only frame closest to being a true ninja, now it's being made to be used by other less-ninja like frames. Making Shurikens stronger or whatever their going to do for his first skill won't change the fact that it's no longer unique

 

Rhino is the last frame that needs something as situational as Super Jump. He's this slow, hard hitting frame, not an agile light footed can jump 6 feet high frame.

 

Notice that I said 'replace it with another unique skill'? I'm not saying 'Make Excalibur less unique'. I'm saying 'give everyone more vertical mobility'. And as I said to Mak_Gohae, given the strength of Tenno such that they can wield gigantic depleted uranium hammers the size of phonebooks and cut armored cyborg dudes in half with swords, jumping six or ten feet into the air should be trivial for even the slowest Warframes. That's the kind of strength we're talking about.

[Exhack]

You know, it wouldn't be overly crazy to just map the charge speed on super jumps to the sprint speed on your Warframe. So a very fast frame can wind up and leap to a higher vantage point quickly, while a Rhino w/ Thrak helmet might take very crucial second or two of holding the jump button to get there.

 

It'd be a very minor way to execute and emphasize the differences between different frames.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Exhack

[HvcTerr]

While I do want to see more mobility, I think the current vertical wall-run is a perfectly acceptable tool for the job. We don't need super-jump for everyone, we just need aspects of each map-tile which allow and encourage that same kind of movement.

 

You can climb up tall crates and things by vertical-running up, and using crouch to force a ledge-grab.

Edited April 15, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Exhack]

I don't see why you're all arguing for fewer options to move around the map rather than more. A charged vertical jump comes across as a logical progression from normal jumping, and offers a lot more directionality. Vertical wall runs are awkward to get up to ledges that are not directly across from a smooth surface and pretty finicky on the whole.

 

And I'm saying this as a Volt primary player.

[Kaiku]

There's always hoping for new mods which might allow us to be more agile.

Super jump, charged jump, double jump... magnetic boots... I'd say we should have all those as mods.

[Exhack]

There's always hoping for new mods which might allow us to be more agile.

Super jump, charged jump, double jump... magnetic boots... I'd say we should have all those as mods.

 

I'm tempted to say this is a bad idea largely because it creates the same issues as discussed in the OP. Either it creates a set of 'must have' mods, or it gives you really ancillary functionality and just winds up as a waste of modslot and capacity. Being able to wallrun doesn't use up slots, and neither should this.

[HvcTerr]

Kangaroo jumps are simply far less "deep" than good map design. Easier to implement, sure, but I'd rather focus on assembling a collection of moves and geometries that players can recognize and chain together to choose and create their own paths across a level.

 

 

I don't see why you're all arguing for fewer options to move around the map rather than more.

 

 

Actually, I think it's the opposite way around. I'm choosing to define "option" as "a fun and challenging decision presented to the player".

 

In that sense, super-jump reduces your options, because it makes a bunch of them obsolete or unnecessary. For an extreme example, consider what would happen if Tenno could fly like superman. Sure, you can do more things, but the actual "options" are almost nothing, because there's always one best way to do it.

 

Rather than presenting the players with "superjump directly to this spot", I'd rather give them a "run up this, kick off, air-dash to ledge, bounce up and wallrun across the gap". Some of the new tiles are starting to show this off more, with alternate wall-run shortcuts, etc.

Edited April 15, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Kaiku]

I'm tempted to say this is a bad idea largely because it creates the same issues as discussed in the OP. Either it creates a set of 'must have' mods, or it gives you really ancillary functionality and just winds up as a waste of modslot and capacity. Being able to wallrun doesn't use up slots, and neither should this.

True, actually I should've not said that we should have them all as mods.

There needs to be "base stats" for some things. Like being able to jump at all is something what we need. The question is "How high?".

So yeah, you're right.

[Quetzhal]

I don't see why you're all arguing for fewer options to move around the map rather than more. A charged vertical jump comes across as a logical progression from normal jumping, and offers a lot more directionality. Vertical wall runs are awkward to get up to ledges that are not directly across from a smooth surface and pretty finicky on the whole.

 

And I'm saying this as a Volt primary player.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out that there are enough existing ways that DE could technically create a vertical movement-based map, even though I doubt they will because people will complain that it's too difficult just to get through a map. To be fair, they probably shouldn't try that until there's a better tutorial that explains the mechanics of walljumping. There is that really really cool tile with lots of stairs crisscrossing a huge vertical room, though... Still need to explore that one thoroughly.

I wouldn't mind some secrets that take lots of parkour-y parkour that are really hard to get to, though. Would be fun.

Either way, more movement options would be great.

[HvcTerr]

Ideally all rooms should have at least one way to go from entry-to-exit without doing more than plain jumps [1], but advanced moves (and the stamina to pull them off) should reward players with faster travel and ways to surprise or surround the enemy.

 

So if you want to play a slow gun-toting tank with no stamina mods at all, you can do that, but you can also play a hit-and-run fragile-speedster, who is able to cross larger gaps and get the drop on enemies from behind or to escape for breathing-room while enemies follow on a longer route.

 

[1] Yes, some rooms currently force you to do a vertical wall-run to get out, I'd like to either change that or make the necessary move covered by a tutorial.

Edited April 16, 2013 by HvcTerr

[kirauriel]

Agree on replacing the power, don't on giving it to other warframes. The power is useless in my opinion except for speed runs (and volt/loki does it better imo with volt's speed and loki's cloak AND decoy AND teleport, though excalibur does have the sword dash going for it) or screwing around with physics. The only other viable use is escaping combat for a second, unless you are still shot at while in the air.

[Exhack]

Agree on replacing the power, don't on giving it to other warframes. The power is useless in my opinion except for speed runs (and volt/loki does it better imo with volt's speed and loki's cloak AND decoy AND teleport, though excalibur does have the sword dash going for it) or screwing around with physics. The only other viable use is escaping combat for a second, unless you are still shot at while in the air.

 

Except the suggestion /isn't/ to give it as a 'power' to everyone else. It's just to give some kind of buffed jump move (or maybe a double jump, as has been suggested) to other warframes.