A Potato Discussion. (Orokin Reactor/catalyst)

[Feam]

Warning: Over 1000 words. (I'm a horrible person)
I have no interest in responses like "LOL JUST PAY HOBO" or "Meh, no". If you have an objective opinion, try explaining it in a civil manner or there's simply no point in having it.

{You can skip to my point if you look for the >>>>><<<<<, this is an introduction of sorts}

Warframe has shown many times before that it has such a dynamic team with wonderful, unique ideas for systems, features, and general development for the game.
People asked for Wall-Movement, and they delivered.
The mod system didn't work in the long run, and they completely revamped it.

Another important and unique system in the game is the Supercharging Feature, and I would love to take a little look at it with you, after having some concerns about it.
I do not know if this is just one of thousands of threads - all of them completely run down and resolved - about the topic, and I apologize if it is an inconvenience.

Explanation about the feature to newcomers
Every Weapon and Warframe in the game can be supercharged with a one-time-use Orokin Catalyst or an Orokin Reactor respectively, which will double their mod capacity permanently.
A level 15 gun would have 15 mod points, a Supercharged level 15 gun would have 30 mod points.
These items can only be achieved through crafting a one-time-use Blueprint that you receive at random from Mission Alerts, or Log-In rewards. They can also be bought without the need for a blueprint for 20 platinum each, or alongside any weapon/frame/sentinel bought with Platinum.
They tend to be called Potatoes (Golden Potatoes for Reactors?) by the Community.

This feature has its benefits, but also a lot of hindrances.
I remember reading a DE Official stating that, in paraphrasing, "People who like to pay in F2P games generally prefer to pay for less grinding, more options, and faster progression - rather than for Cosmetic items and enhancements." That gives the Supercharging system a big benefit - Players can pay to double their options in modding a single weapon/frame/sentinel, and avoid the hassle of crafting a potato.

>>>>>The issue that I find with this system<<<<<
In a Free-to-play perspective, or even someone who paid a bit for the game but prefers to keep his Platinum for other, even MORE limited resources (Item / Frame slots, Colors, Revives, Profile Pictures, etc)...
Your entire "endgame" progression relies on Luck, 24/7 Dedication towards the game, or Payment.
I have never seen any F2P game do it quite like this, and it shocked me when I finally understood the system.
Personally, I don't always have the option to wake up in the middle of the night because an alert told me to, or to rush back home in a 10-50 minute timespan, and that applies to many others.
The "Daily Quests / Rewards" phenomenon has become a regular, hard-coded pattern in F2P and MMO games. Games like TF2 make it even Weekly, or Bi-weekly. These are all SET IN STONE though - they simply involve a frame of time that dedicated players should follow.
This is far beyond that, and you can read on how I would like to take a small step back with "CONCEPT #2" down below.

How do I suggest to make it supportive of ALL Players?
I'm nobody special; I've never professionally designed games but I have had my fair share of experience in helping with game development. If my suggestions offend you, or seem absurd to you, please feel free to tell me why and I may just change them.

When I first heard of this system, I heard "Rare as hell Blueprint", and this is what I imagined:
Getting the blueprint would either take several weeks / months of 3Star Log-In Rewards, which is obviously a fair amount of luck and dedication.... Or, it could take someone who is prepared to log in at the EXACT 30 minutes that appear once every few weeks ----> And then he keeps the blueprint forever.
It is a rite of passage, is what I thought. To be able to progress from levels 1-30 to levels 32-60, you have to show this game means something to you... Once. After that, you either have to farm a LARGE amount of rare materials, every time you want to craft the Potato.
For example, rather than 1 of each material, 4 different rare materials... it'd take 5 of each material. Players who Pay for platinum can STILL SKIP THE FARMING.

Sadly, this wasn't the truth. The blueprint is rare, it takes quite a lot of dedication or luck, and you have to get it over and over and over, alongside the small amount of Also rare materials.

I hope at least some of you could see my point in this, and I hope this concern translates as ANYTHING to DE as well. Maybe I'm just over-reacting, who knows.

If my Early Imagination of the system just there doesn't sound suitable to you, It can go simpler than that in many ways, and all of these ways can be tweaked appropriately to what the designers and you want

Concept #1 - Massive Credit Cost for the Blueprint - REDACTED: Not a very good longterm idea.

Concept #2 - Pop Quiz; Very similar to the current system, and influenced by the "Dev Alert" that occurred after Livestream #3, and the Comments on forum about that Alert.
The Mission Alert was a 12 hour long Orokin Catalyst reward, and players were thrilled. 12 hours is still easily miss-able by one side of the globe, but I'm sure a much greater amount of players got that mission down.

Well what is this concept about then? All Orokin Reactor / Catalyst Alerts could be 18-24 hour long. This is a step between "Daily Quest" and "Absolute Random Check", which I think could make a decent dynamic. Semi-dedicated players would log almost every single day and grab their first-mission-of-the-day and their Login Rewards... But truly dedicated players have to stay on the look-out, because once every 2-4 weeks A single day will be an Important day for Warframe.

To complement this Suggestion / Concept, the Missions could be considerably longer and harder, with many objectives, but it'd be all worth it!


Concept #2.5 / #3 - Finally, there is a combination of all of these ideas and suggestions and dreams together. It could use heavy tuning, but if you feel like going crazy, this hits the spot.
MEGA SUPERCHARGER OROKIN TENNO EXTREME RAID ALERT (W.I.P name):
Once every few weeks (1-3?), an alert with detailed information will appear on the list - 18-48 hours before the Mission occurs. The alert will show the time, place, and objective of the important event... In addition to the participation fees.
The mission itself will have a time range of just around one hour, but players will be notified of when the hour hits early that day / a few days before.

This could cause a unifying, organized event where players search for team and prepare their gear - then meet up in-game at the exact same time for a Long, difficult mission with a delicious reward!
The participation fee could be a way to make sure players don't just sit around and wait, then play once 3 weeks when the Special Event hits. The fee could be anywhere between 10k to 30k credits, and if you fail the mission you'd receive it back. Whether it can be paid off with Platinum is up to the devs (This could also be an opportunity to stop Pay to Wins situations, I guess)
-------------------------------------------

This wraps up my thoughts. I'll be eagerly responding to all decent, thoughtful comments that desire a response, and I hope anyone would even read / consider this.
Otherwise, Tell me your opinions on the Potato system!


TL;DR - "Potatoes: Are they fair? Strange Progression. Discuss. Be Civil."

Edited April 23, 2013 by Feam

[FoxStarz]

You lost me at 1,000.

[Slorch]

why are they called potatos?

[LoRDxDeMoN]

why are they called potatos?

 

Reactor and Catalyst are difficult to spell.

[ShadowsCrush]

I don't really have any problem with the current system, but I'm fairly strict with what I supercharge and what I do not.

I am crafting and maxing all the frames, I have 6 done so far, with the materials and blueprints ready to craft the remaining frames.

The one I'm just about finished maxing is Rhino, and I have 3 reactor blueprints I can use, but it will not be used on Rhino, simply because I do not enjoy the frame.

 

I also have 2 catalyst blueprints waiting, but again, weapons that I have no intentions to use again, I'm not going to waste them on.

 

If you're supercharging everything, yeah you're gonna have a rough time without marketing a few, but that's kinda the whole point.

 

That said, I do really like your "big super happy mega funtime extravaganza game show" mission, however I would toss out the cost of it and make it more like a weekly thing in general, with a reward of a large amount.  Money problems is pretty huge currently as far as crafting and fusing, so a weekly mission that runs for 12-24 hours with a reward of anywheres from 20-50k would be awesome. And then of course every once and awhile one of these could be for a reactor/cata.

[Quetzhal]

Concept #3, make it an entire day instead of one hour to adjust for timezones, make it one hell of a mission with a special boss that only appears on that one day of the month because it's an Orokin boss and can only activate when certain stars are aligned or some other odd ingame reason. I'm not at my most creative right now. Also, make that boss really tough and fun. You can do it only do it once.

This could be in addition to regular alerts that already appear for the catalysts and reactors. Fact of the matter is that some players will be unlucky and will miss those alerts; some will be extraordinarily unlucky and always have them appear while they're offline. Could be a good way for them to get catalysts or reactors without making it too easy or too often.

Plus, I'd want to do the alert just for the boss fight.

I have to say, though, I'm kind of uncertain. Might make it a bit too easy to get reactors and catalysts, and they're one of the few things actually worth buying for Platinum right now. DE deserves the money for doing so much work, so... Yeah, a definite alert like that would discourage people from buying, impatience aside. On the other hand, it would be fairer. So I don't know.

[LoRDxDeMoN]

The one I'm just about finished maxing is Rhino, and I have 3 reactor blueprints I can use, but it will not be used on Rhino, simply because I do not enjoy the frame.

 

I hear ya. He's almost as bad as Ash.

[Feam]

That said, I do really like your "big super happy mega funtime extravaganza game show" mission, however I would toss out the cost of it and make it more like a weekly thing in general, with a reward of a large amount.  Money problems is pretty huge currently as far as crafting and fusing, so a weekly mission that runs for 12-24 hours with a reward of anywheres from 20-50k would be awesome. And then of course every once and awhile one of these could be for a reactor/cata.

 

Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. I'm not sure how the developers would feel about a single mission dropping down such an amount of Credits, but making them a weekly Extravaganza with heavy rewards that CAN AT TIMES become a POTATO EXTRAVAGANZA would be nice!

[Bitfly]

I can't really say that I know how you feel (I got platinum) but I agree the BPs are pretty hard to get your hands on.

But I read something yesterday that should make it easier, though I still need to test it.

Someone said you can click the pictures of the log in rewards when it's nearly stopped and get that instead.

I know how many times I've seen a potato as my 2nd last image at log in rewards, so I really need to test this

[ShadowsCrush]

Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting. I'm not sure how the developers would feel about a single mission dropping down such an amount of Credits, but making them a weekly Extravaganza with heavy rewards that CAN AT TIMES become a POTATO EXTRAVAGANZA would be nice!

Well, if it's only 20k then it's basically just enough to craft a weapon or piece of a frame.

Not as impressive as it sounds.

It's also about the same amount necessary to upgrade a mod from tier4 to 5 using rares/uncommon cores.

Gone in a flash ;_;

[Elhazzared]

I've defended agains't this in the past and I'll still defend and let me explain you why. In the first place you don't need potatoes to beat any content at all. Sure you'll need them if you want to to very high waves of defense missions, but other than that you can do any planet without it. Will it be harder? Yes, but doable none the less.

 

Now as for more reasons. I feel they should be rare cause in the first place you only need 4 potatoes to be fully equiped, that is the warframe you play the most, the rifle you use the most, the pistol you use the most and the mellee weapon you use the most. Now, you can get 2 of those 4 potatoes with the starting plat. So then you need only 2 more, getting them shouldn't be too hard!

 

The game allows you to pay and it's really a minimal amount for it. Don't go to macdonalds one day and you have 5 bucks to buy 3 potatoes, add the 10 plat you had spare from buying the first 2 with the 50 plat the game gives you and that's 4 potatoes for a total of 6. Almost anyone should be able to do this and in return you are supporting a company that is making a game you enjoy to play.

 

Now, making easy ways to obtain the blueprint would just be bad from a buisness model point. alerts that you can be guaranteed to get is bad because there will never be a need for anyone to spend plat on it unless they can't wait for tomorrow which most can. Making it credits obtainable... Well, you can farm 250K credits a day by farming Vor on mercury. Just think 5 minutes per run... heck, make it even 10 for a good measure and 4K per run on average (2500 from the guaranteed cronus BP drop, 1000 from the mission and you always get some droped credits here and there making it between 400 and 600 extra during the mission). Spend a day at it and let's be a little abusive, 10 hours. You have 400K and that's on a 10 minute run, most people have fast warframes which can run it in 5 minutes so double it. Now, in order to make this something that would take you weeks, how many millions should it cost for the grind to be acceptable the fact that you get it guaranteed? I don't see it costing anything less than 25 million and similarly, I don't see anyone caring to grin for that much either.

 

The current system is ok because of the starting plat, half of what you need in potatoes is already there after all and you don't truly need anything supercharged to finish content although from a progression point of view it is important because hey, everyone wants to get better. So if you have the time to dedicate to the game you'll get those fairly easy and if you don't then you surelly can skip a bigmac to buy those potatoes. the current system works pretty well.

[neKroMancer]

Since patatoes and slots are two things that have affordable price, they are probably money maker for DE. While the suggestions seemed fair, I don't think it's profitable.

 

Potato missions are randomized for a reason. If you look back at previous update (I joined around update5), DE made the supercharge feature strictly platinum-based and players were really angry. During update6, they made change to this state of randomness which CBT testers seemed to agree that it's more fair than previous state since we have a fair chance to get alert missions while DE make their revenue from impatient players.

 

Personally, I think that's already a good compromise from DE. I don't expect to see any changes any time soon.

[Feam]

Concept #3, make it an entire day instead of one hour to adjust for timezones, make it one hell of a mission with a special boss.

This could be in addition to regular alerts that already appear for the catalysts and reactors. Fact of the matter is that some players will be unlucky and will miss those alerts; some will be extraordinarily unlucky and always have them appear while they're offline. Could be a good way for them to get catalysts or reactors without making it too easy or too often.

Plus, I'd want to do the alert just for the boss fight.

I have to say, though, I'm kind of uncertain. Might make it a bit too easy to get reactors and catalysts, and they're one of the few things actually worth buying for Platinum right now. DE deserves the money for doing so much work, so... Yeah, a definite alert like that would discourage people from buying, impatience aside. On the other hand, it would be fairer. So I don't know.

 

Your idea of Concept #3 is pretty much what I meant in Concept #2, but yes, it does make it more convenient worldwide, so it is an option to merge both of them for maximum efficency.I also like having the normal alerts, of course! Never meant to trample them, so yes, I agree with you on that one as well.You raise some valid concerns. DE Deserves the money and the game definitely needs a Solid cash-making item in the market, but should it be such important progression items, the Potatoes? I'm not saying it shouldn't be sold on the store, but I think It shouldn't be a must-buy. Different games have different moneymakers. Team Fortress 2 makes its cash from Gambling with Keys... Tribes: Ascend makes most money from Exclusive Class-skins, Voice-packs, and sort of Long-term CREDIT BOOSTERS.None of them limit the players from reaching the top-tier gear. Still, I understand what you're saying. Potatoes should never be too easy to get. Just... a bit more controllable?

[FoxStarz]

Yeah, I'm mad at myself for sleeping last night and missing the one thing I've been waiting and hoping for. (Reactor).... I'm not a fan of the short alerts because if i'm not online, it usually means i have more important stuff to do and wouldn't be able to stop and come play the alert, even if i did know about it at the time.. At this point, the alerts are just too inconvenient for me and I refuse to put anything in real life aside to play a special alert, even if it's something I really really wanted in the game... And I hate to think about what other people have put aside in life (if anything) to play alot of these decently rewarding and short duration alerts. Basically it's like, "Hey, if you want this item you have to drop everything important and play me!".  I mean, I'm okay with it and I just shrug it off that I missed out, but nontheless, it kinda sucks. XD

[Zeruel104]

I read your entire post, and while I agree they should be a little more common to aquire naturally, what you're suggesting I think its a bit much. You also need to realize that potatoes are probably the highest source of income for DE. I don't have any figures, but I know they are what I spend most of my plat on, besides slots that is. I also don't slap potatoes into weapons and armor unless I decide that I like them enough.

 

so yeah, I'm not saying "LOL JUST PAY HOBO" but I am saying shut up and support the devs if you like the game.

[Feam]

Thank you for all of the thought out responses.

 

 

I completely understand what you mean, and I tried my best to not have my intention as making the reactor / catalyst EASY to get, just slightly more convenient, fair, or even less Random.I agree that their price is fairly minimal, and so is the Slots' prices, and I agree that they probably are never a 100% Necessity for most of the content in the game. I just find the current system to be more frusturating than productive.I simply hope they can focus getting the money they deserve from other sources, and make things that impact gameplay and the desire to continue progressing and playing game more ACCESSIBLE. (Pretty important detail for a F2P game, don't you think? Players will want to get more frames, get more POINTS TO SPEND MODS ON, to keep playing)

 

 

I fully understand, I just want to explore options and creativity. "affordable" should never be just a term to rely on after all.Heck, even if my ideas are flawed and we should infact pay up for supercharging and such, this thread wasn't for naught - I still have faith in the "SUPER MEGA WEEKLY RAID MODE ALERT ANNOUNCEMENT OF EPIC REWARDS", that others seem to like too. Doesn't even have to be for Potatoes I guess!

[Elhazzared]

True but you also have to consider the balance between easy of accessing stuff and profit. General idea is you can get everything that gives a real game impact however it's hard to get. Sure luck is a *@##&#036; but in a way that makes it hard to get them. I'd only disagree with their model if it was impossible to get ingame but as it stands I think it's ok. This not to say that you don't make fair points, you do but I belive it's fine as it is.

[Feam]

I read your entire post, and while I agree they should be a little more common to aquire naturally, what you're suggesting I think its a bit much. You also need to realize that potatoes are probably the highest source of income for DE. I don't have any figures, but I know they are what I spend most of my plat on, besides slots that is. I also don't slap potatoes into weapons and armor unless I decide that I like them enough.

 

so yeah, I'm not saying "LOL JUST PAY HOBO" but I am saying shut up and support the devs if you like the game.

 

As I've mentioned before my intention wasn't to deprive DE of the monies or make things super-easy, it was to channel them into an (allegedly) more appropriate source / fashion. I also can't stress enough that "what I mention is too much" because they are all concepts, that can be tuned in any way to make the game more FAIR, FUN, and still PROFITABLE. I don't think theres anything else anyone would ask for, right?Things can progress and change in the future, and I wouldn't want certain features like this one to be left behind and solidifed. That could eventually despair plenty of new users from actually playing, and could turn it into almost a pay to win.

[Xtorma]

Ive been playing a couple weeks , I have 3 weapon and 2 warframe potato bp's I got them even before my weapons were really ready for them.

[Feam]

Ive been playing a couple weeks , I have 3 weapon and 2 warframe potato bp's I got them even before my weapons were really ready for them.

5 Potatoes in 2 weeks is pretty great. Lucky Log-in rewards? Even with massive dedication and without missing a single alert, I don't think there were that many.

[Mentosftw]

._. People tend to forget that games and especially mmos are designed to make money. It's a business first and foremost.

 

DE is already very lenient with the freemium options that they give us considering the only thing that cannot be attained without plats are slots and colours.

 

Not to event mention that we get free plat to start with.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mentosftw

[DeMoH7]

Well said OP.

[Venarge]

So ok. I see it that way. People most likely will get free slots in the future. At least, Steve mentioned that they are aware of the slot thing.

After the slots, the only thing left what is worth paying money for are the potatoes. As I started with the game, I played as F2P player without any plat. Besides the start plat. I bought slots. And I havent had any problems during that time. Whenever I got a potatoe, I was very happy about it cause it was something I would actually had to pay for and still got it. It was a nice feeling. And even without a charged frame, It was fun to play(besides the skill restriction we had preU7...) Right now, this game is one of the most player friendly games I know. They listen to the community and keep updates frequently. I really dont see the need to make the last thing that is worth to pay for, free, since you still can get them without paying.... The only thing I would change are how long the potatoe missions last. They should all have 12 hours. That way almost everyone has a chance to get one.

[Fujimura]

I wouldn't mind seeing them easier to get, atm I use the 2.w/e k plat i have sitting around to pick them up for weapons I like.  Which is ironic, because I just shelve my gear the second it hits rank30 and don't look back at it unless A) soloing bosses B) doing rank up mission.  So not sure if its really needed, because 1) for me at least i dished out to support the game :X, and 2) I haven't found to many weapons or frames that I have been like "I need a potato" for.  Though as I said before wouldn't mind seeing them somewhat less 'chancey' to get.  That being said of the like 12 potatos I have, only like 1/2 cat and 1 reactor are from alerts. Never gotten a log in reward one =_= pesky ammo boxes that I forget to use!

[MrWux]

Yeah, I'm mad at myself for sleeping last night and missing the one thing I've been waiting and hoping for. (Reactor).... I'm not a fan of the short alerts because if i'm not online, it usually means i have more important stuff to do and wouldn't be able to stop and come play the alert, even if i did know about it at the time.. At this point, the alerts are just too inconvenient for me and I refuse to put anything in real life aside to play a special alert, even if it's something I really really wanted in the game... And I hate to think about what other people have put aside in life (if anything) to play alot of these decently rewarding and short duration alerts. Basically it's like, "Hey, if you want this item you have to drop everything important and play me!".  I mean, I'm okay with it and I just shrug it off that I missed out, but nontheless, it kinda sucks. XD

 

+1