Wallclimb Cancel To Wallclimb Cancel To Wallclimb ...

[Aerensiniac]

You honestly can't think of anywhere where climbing up the wall would be a shortcut?

 

I honestly cant think of a place that cannot be reached by any other means than wall cancel and would still matter enough for me to do so.

This only narrows further when you add that there needs to be a point to it or something to be gained by doing so.

[Aerensiniac]

Interestingly enough, I think if the Tenno stabbed some sort of melee weapon into the pillar and used that to to swing themselves upwards (pulling it back out as they went) people would have less of a problem with it.

 

Probably because "accept that swords are ridiculously sharp" is already part of the implicit agreement.

 

Also:

An author's work, in other words, does not have to be realistic, only believable and internally consistent (see Magic A Is Magic A). When the author pushes the audience too far, the work fails. As far as science fiction is concerned, viewers are usually willing to go along with creative explanations unless the show tries to use real science, at which point it's fair game, though this is because Science Fiction is just that: Science FICTION. Attempting to use actual science to explain something you made up removes the story from it's own fantasy universe and places it in the context of reality. That's why people don't criticize your wormhole travel system or how a shrinking potion doesn't violate the laws of matter conservation. Suspension of disbelief can be broken even in science fiction when a show breaks its own established laws or places said laws outside of fiction.

 

A common way of putting this is "You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable." For example, people will accept that the Grand Mage can teleport across the world, or that the spaceship has technology that makes it completely invisible without rendering its own sensors blind, but they won't accept that the ferocious carnivore just happened to have a heart attack and die right before it attacked the main character, or that the hacker guessed his enemy's password on the first try just by typing random letters, at least without some prior detail justifying it or one of the Rules listed below coming into play. What is in Real Life impossible just has to be made the norm in the setting and kept consistent.

 

You do understand that this argument can be used both pro and contra. Right?

That being said you are correct: if the Tenno stabbed some sort of melee weapon into the pillar and used that to to swing themselves upwards (pulling it back out as they went) people would have less of a problem with it.

 

People in fact would have no choice to accept it as part of the game and a valid manvuer.

Coincidentaly, this is one of the very few moves that cannot be found in waframe when comparing to gunz.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[HvcTerr]

I honestly cant think of a place that cannot be reached by any other means than wall cancel and would still matter enough for me to do so.

Just so we're clear, that's not what I asked.

This only narrows further when you add that there needs to be a point to it or something to be gained by doing so.

 

Not narrowing: both small and large shortcuts are issues, but generally for different reasons.

 

When it's an easy but minor speedup over an existing acrobatic path, then it's not a good idea because of the "cannibal move" behavior, which over-simplifies the acrobatics. In some cases the devs can obvious more geometry to block climbs, but not not always and it means more work anyway.

 

On the other extreme, when it's a big  speedup over acrobatic-or-normal paths, then it's not so much a move-set issue as a "how is this whole tile's combat supposed to flow" problem.  

Edited April 18, 2013 by HvcTerr

[PhanBoy]

Looks like one of GunZ's mechanics hah

[Aerensiniac]

That's another of these WTF glitches. I am not against being able to have a regular move to do this - but I would really like to hear the explanation of how slashing air in front of view or around you boost your velocity...

The idea can sound nice, but the current execution is glitchy and looks stupid.

 

Sorry to hear. I guess wall running horizontally for 5+ seconds is not "glitchy" and does not look "stupid". Neither do jump attacks that knock down everything off their feet in a radius despite the fact of executed with a melee weapon similar to a needle. Neither does the sliding + instant forward flip, gaining 10 times the momentum you were sliding with. Neither does "lean against the wall and slide down slowly"... etc.

But damn... slashing the air in front of you boosting your velocity... see that looks stupid.

[Aerensiniac]

Just so we're clear, that's not what I asked.

 

Not narrowing: both small and large shortcuts are issues, but generally for different reasons.

 

When it's an easy but minor speedup over an existing acrobatic path, then it's not a good idea because of the "cannibal move" behavior, which over-simplifies the acrobatics. In some cases the devs can obvious more geometry to block climbs, but not not always and it means more work anyway.

 

On the other extreme, when it's a big  speedup over acrobatic-or-normal paths, then it's not so much a move-set issue as a "how is this whole tile's combat supposed to flow" problem.  

 

Just so we're clear: The post you answered on asked this specifically.

Linking me a video of "anywhere where climbing up the wall would be a shortcut" has about as much relevance to the entire discussion as debating the colors of the tenno that is doing so.

 

If i can traverse the same area by default means then the glitch has lost next to all of its priority/validity. Why would i obsess over something that is totally optional and does not award me any advantages in the first place?

Its like being freaked out over the fact that you can climb stairs while walking backwards. O god it should be clearly forbidden and outlawed cause.... well i dont know. It bugs me?

[Tetsmeha]

This is some legit Gunz butterflying exploits.

[xenapan]

a wall climbing "exploit" yes. but does it change the game? does it offer the players that do this any advantage?

 

as far as i can tell its an entirely benign exploit as you cant kill anything with it. it might let you get some places you shouldnt be able to get but thats about it.

[HvcTerr]

Holy nesting, batman:

 

 

 

 

 

It's a bad mechanic because it's cannibalistic. Its main effect is to obsolete existing fun/useful map designs and paths

Could we have an example to this please?

You honestly can't think of anywhere where climbing up the wall would be a shortcut?

I honestly cant think of a place that cannot be reached by any other means than wall cancel and would still matter enough for me to do so.

Just so we're clear, that's not what I asked.

Just so we're clear: The post you answered on asked this specifically.
Linking me a video of "anywhere where climbing up the wall would be a shortcut" has about as much relevance to the entire discussion as debating the colors of the tenno that is doing so.

I disagree, and here's the posts and their quotes and what quotes were in their quotes etc.

 

So to sum up, you agree that unlimited vertical climb can obsolete other acrobatic moves and designs, but you don't think it's important, and your sole concern involves when I suggested some of the new very-vertical tilesets might have some very tall potential routes?

Edited April 18, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Guest]

+1 for discovery

 

what the devs do with it, i wish them godspeed

[Tetsmeha]

+1 for discovery

 

what the devs do with it, i wish them godspeed

 

Probably nothing until someone figures out how to exploit this to jump above a map or something.

[Aerensiniac]

Holy nesting, batman:

I disagree, and there your evidence, from the actual posts.

So to sum up, you agree about the move-set point, you just don't think it's very important, and your sole concern is actually when I later suggested that some of the newest and most-vertical tiles might be impacted.

 

Maybe you should have read past "Could we have an example to this please?":

 

Could we have an example to this please?

The argument that this glitch is "too powerful" could be really charming if there would be any places in existence with a meaning to them that could not be reached otherwise.

 

Due to the simple fact that no such places are in existence, your point amounts to what exactly?

In this context the only thing this glitch influences is probably your ego, that some people have gotten to the same totally meaningless place you did, but easier.

Naturally even this stands to question since wall cancel is not easier than the backflip wall running.

The picture gets even more ironical when we add that loki can teleport switch places with his decoy.

 

 

As stated above: Capability to do what exactly?

"Raw capability" sounds so damn awesome it almost makes you forget that the only thing you can achieve with this glitch is to shoot a screenshot from the top of the asteroid defense map. Ironically you can do the very same thing with the basic maneuvers too.

 

 

You imply that using this glitch it would be in fact easier to do so than using the basic wall running. This on its own already is pretty interesting since wall cancel is slower that wall running and arguably harder to execute as well. Furthermore due to the fact that you are practically positoned on one wall instead jumping back and forth, everything with a ranged attack can simply tear you down at will.

Even if i were to ignore these facts:

You still imply that people cant run past those very same mobs using a different route and/or using standard wall running, which is also false.

 

 

Even here a few examples would be nice, because it still seems that you are pulling things out of your respective behind. The great majority of places that require you to climb and then leap can be traversed in a series of wall jumps as well, ironically also several times quicker than both your leapy concept and wall cancel.

 

So lets summarize:

Please show a few examples to places which fit one or more of these categories:

- Can only be reached via wall cancel glitch

- Awards you something that otherwise could not be obtained

- Lets you have some sort of unfair advantage

- Allows you to circumvent mission objectives

- Damages/Aids other player's game play in a clearly unintended way

- Cannot be reached in a split second via teleport switch and loki's decoy

 

I curiously await your answer and examples.

 

Not counting the fact that the second sentence is literally: "if there would be any places in existence with a meaning to them that could not be reached otherwise." the last part where you are point by point requested to show an example to wall cancel being used in order to traverse to otherwise unreachable places and/or create any form of advantage otherwise impossible to maintain.

 

Conclusively (i quote): I disagree, and there your evidence, from the actual posts.

So please. Could you show me a few examples?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Onite]

Have to say, i really agree with the GunZ thing. Alot of people just havent played gunz and are afraid these suggestions are going to ruin the game if they were taken seriously. But honestly, they're just not really understood. We're already doing all the same "Exploits" we learned from GunZ. Example? Using slide jumping which is a short execution of 3 keystrokes to immediantly do a launching summersault to be able to get to places that we normally couldnt. Chaining these kinds of moves together and mastering the feel to pull them off when and how you want is all part of the satisfation of movement in the game. Figuring out how to time your melee slide attack to kill grineer around corners is extremely satisfying when you see them split in half. And even moreso when you can keep going without slowing down to literally cut a path through a wall of enemies from point A to point B using your own exeperience and feel for the game. This is exactly the same as GunZ when it comes to maneuvering your character. This doesnt mean "Exploit to be able to circumvent the entire game." There are things in warfame right now like being able to run up a wall, then hold onto it and slide down, allowing you to shoot at things while clinging. This is a GREAT feature to your acrobatics and whatnot, but the window of oppertunity to get to that point is very linear and the actual timeframe of doing this is too short to be useful. Its also limited by the fact that you cannot vertically get up high enough with a single wall run to buy yourself enough time to make that move useful. So really, being able to do things where these loopholes play in, can drastially add depth to the movesets and mobility in the game, even if unintentionally by the developers. If GunZ itself had zero loopholes that make up 90% of the gameplay, then the game itself would have died within a month and never have been discussed like how it has here.

[Hashul]

itt:

 

[chuuburg]

give me reload slash shot with hek

[Felandi]

Allow me to bring a small observation to this whole discussion. From the small clips the original poster provided, both in the standard wall-to-wall jump as well as the 'slash-cancel', he appears to be standing and running on the beams at every moment.

 

Observe how his spinning slash halts every time his feet hit the beams, while the wall climb allows him to run through the beams. Unless I see someone doing using this exact slash on a completely obstacle-free wall I do not buy it. It is not an exploit if this only works on only this particular set of beams in that room. (which lead nowhere).

 

Let's see him do it up say, the pillars in the Jackal's boss room. (Which volt can wallrun all the way up with a 25% speed mod and the maxed speed ability in use.)

Edited April 18, 2013 by Felandi

[zelgaris]

Observe how his spinning slash halts every time his feet hit the beams, while the wall climb allows him to run through the beams. Unless I see someone doing using this exact slash on a completely obstacle-free wall I do not buy it. It is not an exploit if this only works on only this particular set of beams in that room. (which lead nowhere).

 

It is possible to use it on every vertical wall in case there isn't invisible wall placed by the level designer. This is fact, deal with it.

(I am mentioning invisible walls, because there are places, where you can't even touch the wall, while you should be clearly able to do so.)

Edited April 18, 2013 by zelgaris

[zelgaris]

There are things in warfame right now like being able to run up a wall, then hold onto it and slide down, allowing you to shoot at things while clinging. This is a GREAT feature to your acrobatics and whatnot, but the window of oppertunity to get to that point is very linear and the actual timeframe of doing this is too short to be useful. Its also limited by the fact that you cannot vertically get up high enough with a single wall run to buy yourself enough time to make that move useful. So really, being able to do things where these loopholes play in, can drastially add depth to the movesets and mobility in the game, even if unintentionally by the developers.

So for example increasing the the wallrun distance (default distance + bonus distance for sprint speed) doesn't sound like better and more practical solution to the problem you are describing?

 

 

If GunZ itself had zero loopholes that make up 90% of the gameplay, then the game itself would have died within a month and never have been discussed like how it has here.

 

That's a pretty wild speculation about the dieing - nothing more. The second part of your speculation is of course obvious.

[Onite]

So for example increasing the the wallrun distance (default distance + bonus distance for sprint speed) doesn't sound like better and more practical solution to the problem you are describing?

 Thats still a very static limitation where it still doesnt infinitely cover all situations the same way even non exploits like bouncing between vertical surfaces does. A better "Fix" would be to just allow you to do whatever you want as long as you have the stamina to do it. That way we could just run straight up a wall for 12 seconds straight at full speed as our stamina allows it. The game developers WANT you to use parkour and have the freedom to go where you want, because its just simply fun. Thats the whole concept of parkour, to be able to use your momentum with your body to get from point A to point B with the least resistance. there are plenty of parts in tiles where you can take either some winding stairs or wall run vertically to get there faster through shortcuts.

[zelgaris]

 Thats still a very static limitation where it still doesnt infinitely cover all situations the same way even non exploits like bouncing between vertical surfaces does. A better "Fix" would be to just allow you to do whatever you want as long as you have the stamina to do it. That way we could just run straight up a wall for 12 seconds straight at full speed as our stamina allows it. The game developers WANT you to use parkour and have the freedom to go where you want, because its just simply fun. Thats the whole concept of parkour, to be able to use your momentum with your body to get from point A to point B with the least resistance. there are plenty of parts in tiles where you can take either some winding stairs or wall run vertically to get there faster through shortcuts.

We clearly have different opinion on the "freedom".

Would developers want us to do stamina based wallclimbs, they would do so - and since it's beta, it's still a matter of consideration and player's feedback - but they didn't so far.

[Kotoso]

give me reload slash shot with hek

Sprint > slide (hold) > slash > shoot > reload > block

 

Can link into more shots, or more slide attacks. If the devs really want halt progress while they rip apart their game removing every possible animation cancel like the gut reaction seems to be for some people in this thread... well it would be a mistake. But it would be interesting to see where the game would be in a few months.

 

Some things I can see getting fixed though. Zorens launch you really far during a slide attack right now.

[zelgaris]

Sprint > slide (hold) > slash > shoot > reload > block

 

Can link into more shots, or more slide attacks. If the devs really want halt progress while they rip apart their game removing every possible animation cancel like the gut reaction seems to be for some people in this thread... well it would be a mistake. But it would be interesting to see where the game would be in a few months.

 

Some things I can see getting fixed though. Zorens launch you really far during a slide attack right now.

 

I think you misunderstood us, who are against infinite wall climbing glitch.

Nobody here is saying "every glitch is bad", for example, jump melee (ground slam) standing animation cancel is pretty sweet.

 

But in case the glitch is really good and is somehow enhancing the gameplay, it should be properly incorporated. For example in ground slam cancel, I can imagine this cancel requiring considerable amount of stamina/shield/whatever.

Contrary to the exploit talked in this thread, the ground slam cancels even looks pretty legit and "ninja" :) (but again, stuff like this is subjective).

Edited April 18, 2013 by zelgaris

[shukudai]

I take issue with a few points of your argument, zelgaris.

 

The first being, I don't see how slam cancels look any more legit/ninja than wallclimb...  At least you agree that is a subjective thing. :)

 

The second, how can you defend slam cancels but vilify wallclimbing, when FAR AND AWAY slam cancels have 1000 more useful applications that help you beat enemies MUCH MUCH more effectively than...  running up walls to really high places.  :P  I've climbed to the top of the new Corpus defense stages and a) it's too goddamn cloudy b) enemies are too goddamn small, c) they shoot you anyway.  And if you die up there, good luck getting revived.  It takes AGES to wallclimb up that high.  Really, it makes you much LESS effective.  I say this as a killstealing little so-and-so who loves getting 80% of the kills whenever I play defense missions. :)

 

I'm sorry, everyone is typically so FOR things like slide melee/knife sliding etc. but so AGAINST other techs because they've somehow crossed an imaginary line drawn in people's minds, it's really quite a double standard.  I love all the mobility techs being found in the game and it's what makes the game hugely enjoyable for me, and even as a proponent of keeping wallclimb in the game I don't think it's even that useful.  In the time it takes to climb up an elevator, the elevator actually goes faster than the climber.  In most areas that are multilevelled with struts reaching up through the levels that I can think of, I bet your &#! I can wavedash/knifeslide to wherever you're going faster than you can wallclimb.

 

Finally, did you know that if you're not the host of the game, the technique is much harder to do because you have to press crouch twice?  This also increases the amount you fall and makes it harder to re-latch onto the wall, slowing the climb significantly and increasing your margin for technical error as your hand cramps up, because you have to hold RUN and JUMP the whole way.  It's not exactly fun :P

 

Also, as an aside, you mentioned "So for example increasing the the wallrun distance (default distance + bonus distance for sprint speed) doesn't sound like better and more practical solution to the problem you are describing?"

 

You know that's already part of the game, right?  Rush mod increases how high you can vertically wallrun.

 

I'll even make a video if you want proof, let me know :)

[zelgaris]

The first being, I don't see how slam cancels look any more legit/ninja than wallclimb...  At least you agree that is a subjective thing. :)

Being able to recover from attack so fast seems pretty ninja to me, especially if sprint is connected :) BTW I assume by "wallclimb" you've meant the wallclimb cancel. If not, I have nothing against normal wallclimbing and wallrunning.

 

The second, how can you defend slam cancels but vilify wallclimbing, when FAR AND AWAY slam cancels have 1000 more useful applications that help you beat enemies MUCH MUCH more effectively than...  running up walls to really high places.  :P  I've climbed to the top of the new Corpus defense stages and a) it's too goddamn cloudy b) enemies are too goddamn small, c) they shoot you anyway.  And if you die up there, good luck getting revived.  It takes AGES to wallclimb up that high.  Really, it makes you much LESS effective.  I say this as a killstealing little so-and-so who loves getting 80% of the kills whenever I play defense missions. :)

 

I am not aware of me saying infinite climb breaks the game - I was actually asking that if we should completely ignore it only because it doesn't break the game. It only makes the combination of other moves obsolete in some situations and it looks stupid, unbelievable and stupid (seriously, slashing a wall while ducking - even the kick to dash looks stupid, since the same animation from the ground version is used, but it's easy to overlook it due to the speed - see slowmo below)

 

 

I'm sorry, everyone is typically so FOR things like slide melee/knife sliding etc. but so AGAINST other techs because they've somehow crossed an imaginary line drawn in people's minds, it's really quite a double standard.  I love all the mobility techs being found in the game and it's what makes the game hugely enjoyable for me, and even as a proponent of keeping wallclimb in the game I don't think it's even that useful.  In the time it takes to climb up an elevator, the elevator actually goes faster than the climber.  In most areas that are multilevelled with struts reaching up through the levels that I can think of, I bet your &#! I can wavedash/knifeslide to wherever you're going faster than you can wallclimb.

 

I assume you've already read the part about BELIEVABILITY, we are typically FOR the believable stuff and against the non-believable, because that's how it works and how it makes sense. It even works in character/monster design - that's one of the reason even the strangest creatures are based on real animals/things, because we find them believable.

Anyway, tell me the truth, you really don't find someone sliding on knees to attack (hell, I am pretty convinced that the sliding to 360° attack can be done IRL with a bit of skill and training) or standing really fast after attack believable in comparison to jumping in air and attacking the air for mid-air velocity boost (I am pretty sure, this can't be done)?

 

I understand your enjoyment from finding special moves. I personally love to find gaps and bugs in the games/maps - does that mean they should be kept in the game because I enjoy them? I hope you see my point.

 

So, you think the wallclimb cancel is a glitchy useless animation - why keeping it? To show the lack of polish?

 

Even if they add a proper animation and make it "official", I will still dispute the need for such move, but I would have to deal with it, since I am not the game designer here - but yet, we all are testers, who provide feedback.

 

Finally, did you know that if you're not the host of the game, the technique is much harder to do because you have to press crouch twice?  This also increases the amount you fall and makes it harder to re-latch onto the wall, slowing the climb significantly and increasing your margin for technical error as your hand cramps up, because you have to hold RUN and JUMP the whole way.  It's not exactly fun :P

 

Oh.. didn't know that - so there is really no reason to leave something stupid like that in the game :)

 

 

You know that's already part of the game, right?  Rush mod increases how high you can vertically wallrun.

 

Yeah I know and I am actually saying it should be increased even more so there is no reason and place for the glitch - my bad, wrote it not clearly enough.

 

[Babalenong]

haha i dont know that exist, but they might need to fix where you wallrun up, but its just an inch before you touch the edge and start pulling yourself, really annoying