Fix The Vectis...nay Fix All Snipers

[Mesyra]

2m inate punchthrough?????

 

35% base?

 

OP.

 

you want the vectis to become a .50 cal weapon?

 

isn't it already strong alone?

 

Maybe a small buff with the rest of the snipers sure. BUT NOT MUCH it already hits hard

are you thinking that 10285 damage is a lot? my dread laughs at you. take that same shot and go out to t4e.

 

3 forma on my dread and it hits 50k+ all the time, 100K if I'm using volt.

 

snipers and bows should all have a 50% crit base and 2.5 multiplier base.

 

vectis should have a 400-500 damage base.

 

dread and paris hit so much harder than any of the snipers.

Edited September 4, 2014 by VYR3

[Semshol]

well I tryed my old vectis before the buff on a long t3 survival and when there are a lot of enemies u really need to aim only at the priority targets while the rets of teh squad kills teh rest, but if u are alone and don't have a secondary like brakk...

 

Before the buff it was even worse. I do all my testing on T4 with a full squad though.

 

Currently, you don't need a secondary like Brakk, but you do need a good secondary. I prefer Akboltos on my Nyx :)

 

Vectis doesn't suit ALL warframes, but right now even on its best match (Nyx) it is outshined by bows.

[Semshol]

are you thinking that 10285 damage is a lot? my dread laughs at you. take that same shot and go out to t4e.

 

3 forma on my dread and it hits 50k+ all the time, 100K if I'm using volt.

 

snipers and bows should all have a 50% crit base and 2.5 multiplier base.

 

vectis should have a 400-500 damage base.

 

dread and paris hit so much harder than any of the snipers.

 

400 - 500 base is a little too high.

 

Bows don't need more of a buff and snipers don't need an over-buff x'D

 

35% base is enough on the Vectis believe me and if that comes through + innate punch-through, we will be on par with bows.

[Lycii]

Before the recent Sniper buff, Vectis was inferior to bow, agreed.
Now these days, take a closer look.

i mean, saying vectis is outmatched is simply not true. this is just wrong. i am not even talking about owning primed chamber.


try to compare the weapons using http://warframe-builder.com/
 

 

you will find out vectis having higher damage per second (including punch trough)
its not just that, also its hitscan and its rate of fire can nearly be doubled by reloading manually.
 

VECTIS

DPS: 16.382 (automatically reloading)

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Vectis/t_30_20000000_132-3-5-133-5-5-134-7-5-137-0-10-140-1-5-141-6-5-144-4-3-159-2-5_137-7-140-9-159-9-132-15-144-9-133-11-141-11-134-11/en/2-0-23

 

 

PARIS PRIME

DPS: 13.759

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Paris_prime/t_30_32000000_132-3-5-133-5-5-137-0-10-140-1-5-141-6-5-149-4-5-152-7-5-159-2-5_137-18-140-5-159-9-132-15-149-9-133-11-141-11-152-7/en/2-0-28

 

So, when you try to reload on your own next to each shot, you will almost double the DPS like mentioned above.
How do you believe then, it would be inferior to bows?
reloading on your own outmatches EVERY weapon.
hard to handle, tho.

anyway, i highly doubt DPS 16k beeing bad.

[dadaddadada]

but where would I have to shoot to get 100% crit? always the head?

 

You are implying banshee's sonar and saryn's venom don't exist. Heck, perhaps with the guaranteed crit mechanic those abilities would get some love.

 

That's not fair because the bow can hit the body and still do inordinate amounts of damage

 

Any moderately high level corrupted heavy gunner don't go down with a bow shot on body. If you carry a bow, you'll find yourself struggling to aim for the head at high levels, failing most of the times because arrows are slow and sacrificing any punch-through viability.

 

So we attribute crit rates to body parts? I'd say no again because that would slow the pace of the game, due to over-aiming to get best DPS.

 

lol. just, lol. So Warframe is no more fast paced because people tend to aim for the head for best DPS. Makes a whole lot of sense.

 

Edit: I should probably note, most people can't even aim, I don't want the sniper pool to grow even smaller so it wouldn't be a fix, just a horrid idea.

 

Seriously? Is that even an argument?

 

EDIT: I realized why guaranteed critical skill shots are not viable for warframe. Because PS4 and XBOX don't have a mouse, it would be pretty inconsistent in those consoles to even score an headshot to begin with.

Edited September 4, 2014 by dadaddadada

[Semshol]

-snip-

 

The builder is inaccurate actually for bows and snipers. Test it in game to get a more accurate feel of the weapon.

 

The DPS is AVERAGED out, which is kinda not the point of this. We need consistent crits, not 1/4 of our damage 25% of the time, which is horrid when you're only counting on one-shot. DPS is a bad measure in the case of bows and snipers.

 

Besides going strictly by DPS, AkMagnus has 31k. Is it the ultimate weapon? No, Akboltos actually outperform and of course the Brakk is god-like.

 

DPS is not the idea here, it's consistency.

[Semshol]

You are implying banshee's sonar and saryn's venom don't exist. Heck, perhaps with the guaranteed crit mechanic those abilities would get some love.

 

 

Any moderately high level corrupted heavy gunner don't go down with a bow shot on body. If you carry a bow, you'll find yourself struggling to aim for the head at high levels, failing most of the times because arrows are slow and sacrificing any punch-through viability.

 

 

lol. just, lol. So Warframe is no more fast paced because people tend to aim for the head for best DPS. Makes a whole lot of sense.

 

 

Seriously? Is that even an argument?

 

EDIT: I realized why guaranteed critical skill shots are not viable for warframe. Because PS4 and XBOX don't have a mouse, it would be pretty inconsistent in those consoles to even score an headshot to begin with.

 

 

1. They don't exist lol. T4 Defense, does anyone use them? No, therefore irrelevant to the idea.

 

2. Arrows are slow? Are you serious? I can hit anything IN THE HEAD, coming out the doorway on the far side of the pod, in T4 defense. With hit-scan its easier yes. But did you know I don't need to aim at the head to kill things up to level 50? Why, simple, 100% crit rate on bows. I am not asking for that on Vectis though, I am okay with the 87.5% because that is enough for consistency. Not being able to kill something with a head-shot, when the crit completely doesn't proc, is a problem. WIth Latron Prime this happens often, but I can fire another shot. Latron Wraith, same thing. Vectis, I cannot until I reload = is problem.

 

3. No they would aim wherever they are comfortable, but when you attribute different crit. rates to different parts of the body and guarantee it only on the head with 0% crit rate anywhere else, people have no choice BUT to aim for the head and as you yourself mentioned it might be a struggle against high-level enemies. Hence having some crit. opportunity on body shots is important.

 

4. It is technically an argument, because our objective is to make the weapon more viable to people and not turn them away x'D

[Lordofgore]

Lycii said it more eloquently than I can, but to simplify learn how to mod scrubs.

[Semshol]

Lycii said it more eloquently than I can, but to simplify learn how to mod scrubs.

 

Modded and tested, still lack-lustre. And I didn't just test via warframe builder. I played multiple actual missions to see the effect.

[Lycii]

I am playing vectis and brakk only, i dont need to test or get a feeling.i got it.
of course DPS is an average where its aimed for bodies only, not taking advantage of the critical headshots.
regardless of that, its DPS is very high already. its calculated the same on every weapon.
when talking about it beeing bugged, its like that for bow and vectis in the same way.
thinking about that, the comparison still makes sense.
 

i guess there is no way to calculate the headshot damage too.

since you started talking about feeling, what do you feel about them? cant tell me bow beeing stronger, no way.

 

 

 

where in hell do you see akmagnus having DPS 31k?  show me

[Semshol]

I am playing vectis and brakk only, i dont need to test or get a feeling.i got it.

of course DPS is an average where its aimed for bodies only, not taking advantage of the critical headshots.

regardless of that, its DPS is very high already. its calculated the same on every weapon.

when talking about it beeing bugged, its like that for bow and vectis in the same way.

thinking about that, the comparison still makes sense.

 

i guess there is no way to calculate the headshot damage too.

since you started talking about feeling, what do you feel about them? cant tell me bow beeing stronger, no way.

 

 

 

where in hell do you see akmagnus having DPS 31k?  show me

 

Go to warframe builder and do it up with the following mods:

Hornet Strike - Barrel - Pathogen - Convulsion

Lethal Torrent - Pistol Gambit - Ice-storm - Pistol Pest.

 

Should be 31k burst, at least last time I checked. All mods maxed of course. [AkVasto can reach this figure too by the way]

 

Now getting back to the point. What I feel for them is simple. The bow can kill an entire CROWD, hence why I am asking for an innate-punchthrough. This is something other snipers already have by the way, so I'm not asking for something out of this world.

 

I am also asking for more consistent crits, because bows have a 100% crit rate.

 

However, a sniper does not need a 100% crit rate. 87.5% is good enough to have consistent crits and you may get less damage when the crit doesn't proc but that will be very rare.

 

I am NOT asking for a damage boost of any kind. I just want consistency so I don't have to sweat when I pull the trigger.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[Lycii]

31K  Burst? are you serious? xD
you can not compare burst damage and damage per second. those things are total different

[Semshol]

31K  Burst? are you serious? xD

you can not compare burst damage and damage per second. those things are total different

 

*sigh* the damage for Vectis is also the burst damage and the sustained damage, I am showing that figure to show the fallacy of why you don't use warframe builder as back-up for an argument. I built the Vectis there long before I started testing it in actual fact. The consistency of crits is still a problem, again if you read what I actually wrote, I am asking for consistency, I have never once mentioned a damaged boost.

 

Also FYI, burst damage is more relevant than sustained, why? Because how much you can do per second in a single clip is most important, since reload time is dealt with in other ways. Even if you didn't want to compare that, you can compare total damage, but again this whole thing is not about damage.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Semshol

[dadaddadada]

1. They don't exist lol. T4 Defense, does anyone use them? No, therefore irrelevant to the idea.

 

2. Arrows are slow? Are you serious? I can hit anything IN THE HEAD, coming out the doorway on the far side of the pod, in T4 defense. With hit-scan its easier yes. But did you know I don't need to aim at the head to kill things up to level 50? Why, simple, 100% crit rate on bows. I am not asking for that on Vectis though, I am okay with the 87.5% because that is enough for consistency. Not being able to kill something with a head-shot, when the crit completely doesn't proc, is a problem. WIth Latron Prime this happens often, but I can fire another shot. Latron Wraith, same thing. Vectis, I cannot until I reload = is problem.

 

3. No they would aim wherever they are comfortable, but when you attribute different crit. rates to different parts of the body and guarantee it only on the head with 0% crit rate anywhere else, people have no choice BUT to aim for the head and as you yourself mentioned it might be a struggle against high-level enemies. Hence having some crit. opportunity on body shots is important.

 

4. It is technically an argument, because our objective is to make the weapon more viable to people and not turn them away x'D

 

1. Again, you are implying too much. T4 defence is not the only mission in warframe. I have personally seen saryns killing in pvp conflicts with venom. Make 100% critical on sonar weakpoints and see how people will use it. Oh, yes they would.

 

2. You sure like winning easy, do you. You are facing a stream of enemies coming directly at you. In any other survival scenario that doesn't involve corridor-exploiting bows quickly lose versatility. Even if they one-shot, the dps would be in favor of snipers against scattered targets (in pvp, bows are close to useless). I don't think the rest of your paragraph brings anything worth talking about.

 

3. Struggle against high-level enemies with bows, snipers don't feel any difference as enemies don't get faster with time. I don't personally get what's your problem with doing headshots multiple times for best dps.

 

4. I refuse to question this point further, because i realized that such an accuracy-based system is never going to be implemented anyway in Warframe because of consoles.

[TwiceDead]

It's all about the weakpoints with a sniper. 

 

If you hit a weakpoint (headshot) Sniper Rifles should have an increased damage multiplier, a multiplier that is also affected by the Critical Damage multiplier. 

 

Personally these are the things I'd like to see:

 

Tune up the damage. 
Set critical chance to 0%. 
Make headshots guaranteed critical hits that are affected by the critical damage multiplier.

If you want to add X-ray vision or whatevs ontop of that, be my guest. 

 

Sniper Rifle's effectiveness should not be governed by chance, as many people have already stated. I feel like the Critical Hit Chance is completely out of place on a sniper, as all it does is leave your kills to the gods of RNG. The kills should by made through the shooters skill alone, a band-aid fix like giving snipers a 50% Critical Chance so you can slap on a Point Strike for guaranteed critical hits just sounds lazy to me, and even then the red-crits would be affected by the gods of RNG. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Semshol]

It's all about the weakpoints with a sniper. 

 

If you hit a weakpoint (headshot) Sniper Rifles should have an increased damage multiplier, a multiplier that is also affected by the Critical Damage multiplier. 

 

Personally these are the things I'd like to see:

 

Tune up the damage. 

Set critical chance to 0%. 

Make headshots guaranteed critical hits that are affected by the critical damage multiplier.

If you want to add X-ray vision or whatevs ontop of that, be my guest. 

 

Sniper Rifle's effectiveness should not be governed by chance, as many people have already stated. I feel like the Critical Hit Chance is completely out of place on a sniper, as all it does is leave your kills to the gods of RNG. The kills should by made through the shooters skill alone, a band-aid fix like giving snipers a 50% Critical Chance so you can slap on a Point Strike for guaranteed critical hits just sounds lazy to me, and even then the red-crits would be affected by the gods of RNG. 

 

35% is not 100%. It is just good enough with point strike alone.

 

The point about specific aiming has been debated and was already noted to be impossible because of console aiming. Read prior posts in this thread. Someone already suggested it.

 

I am working with present mechanics and from the actual feel of the weapon in the highest possible missions at the moment.

[dadaddadada]

EDIT: snip

Semshol replied for me.

Edited September 4, 2014 by dadaddadada

[TwiceDead]

35% is not 100%. It is just good enough with point strike alone.

 

The point about specific aiming has been debated and was already noted to be impossible because of console aiming. Read prior posts in this thread. Someone already suggested it.

 

I am working with present mechanics and from the actual feel of the weapon in the highest possible missions at the moment.

Didn't read that thread and I am not bothering to read back for it right now. 

 

But I still think it could work. 

Add auto-aim for the console folks, tune the stick up a tiny bit, headshot achieved. That easy. 

[OnnaJReverT]

@TwiceDead

 

it's not that easy because the auto-aim will always work against you when trying to headshot as long as it works on the center of the body, not to mention enemies with critspot in different places (mainly infested, but also feral kubrows, bosses, etc.)

 

i find the guaranteed-crit-on-headshot thing a bad idea anyway, because some enemies have quite wonky critical hitboxes (e.g. void heavy gunners, the above-mentioned examples), giving snipers modability to 100% crit would serve the same purpose while being less finicky, yet still reward headshots with the normal headshot-multiplier (though that might be raised for snipers)

[Marthrym]

I want a Farsight. GIVE ME.

Kuddos to those who know which weapon I'm talking about.^^

[TwiceDead]

@TwiceDead

 

it's not that easy because the auto-aim will always work against you when trying to headshot as long as it works on the center of the body, not to mention enemies with critspot in different places (mainly infested, but also feral kubrows, bosses, etc.)

 

i find the guaranteed-crit-on-headshot thing a bad idea anyway, because some enemies have quite wonky critical hitboxes (e.g. void heavy gunners, the above-mentioned examples), giving snipers modability to 100% crit would serve the same purpose while being less finicky, yet still reward headshots with the normal headshot-multiplier (though that might be raised for snipers)

Yes auto-aim will always work against you, but console folks reap what they sow.

That said, I agree on your second paragraph. Hitboxes are indeed wonky and unpredictable at it's best, so until that's sorted out accurate shots really doesn't do anyone any favors. Take Sonar for instance, it's still inconsistent as all hell, so maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up until at least that get's sorted. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Quizel]

So snipers don't have a niche, well, create an enemy type that takes reduced dmg from all types except snipers. Niche created, is everyone happy?

 

Part of the reason why snipers are underwhelming is because you extract when enemies start 1 shot'ing everyone. If the average player was able to survive the incoming damage, snipers would become far more useful being that everything is now a bullet sponge. Inefficient high dps auto-rifles become less viable while snipers keep on tearing it up much further into late game. However, snipers do start experiencing ammo issues once things stop being 1 shot as well.

 

Vectis compared to bows like dread/paris:

 

Vectis does outperform the Dread (single target/headshots) when things start taking 3+ arrows/trigger pulls to kill. The unreliable crit chance of the Vectis begins evening out and also has a significantly faster effective RoF (Dread 0.7 shots/sec Vectis 1.15 shots/sec). Because of this eRoF, the Vectis is more versatile against both heavy units and the lower lifeforms alike.

 

#'s With procs off and armor/health type not specified

 

Vectis@75.6k ave. sustained dps

Dread@54.4k ave. sustained dps

 

Spreadsheet printout comparing dread corrosive build to Vectis corrosive build against fossilized flesh. Head shots only considered and estimated proc damage also included.

 

Weapon builds used are meant to be very similar. The only differences is that Dread is making use of speed trigger and that Vectis is using charged chamber.  On the Vectis, I have considered using critical delay to increase the likely hood of getting at least 1 crit per trigger pull by 8% instead of hammer shot. Hammer shot provides about 10% more damage on average than CD, thus I didn't use it here for end end game comparisons.

 

 

(argument about boosting crit chance)

Personally, I think having 100% crits chance is lame. Where's the fun in knowing exactly what will happen every trigger pull? I like having to quickly adapt to the chaotic unknown situation.

 

The moment we stop taking all the numbers so seriously I think we can have a much funner game experience.  The only argument that is reasonable is to give slight innate punch through. However, that just makes weapons that have it already that much less special. If you want punch through, use the Lanka >.>.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Quizel

[xXNASHXx14]

I think that the Vectis would be too OP with a 35% crit chance and a 2m punch through. It would outclass the bows with would make me VERY angry (because of how hard I had to work to get the Paris Prime.)

[Psychosist]

I think that the Vectis would be too OP with a 35% crit chance and a 2m punch through. It would outclass the bows with would make me VERY angry (because of how hard I had to work to get the Paris Prime.

Bows have 50% crit chance and ragdoll-style "punch through".

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I think that the Vectis would be too OP with a 35% crit chance and a 2m punch through. It would outclass the bows with would make me VERY angry (because of how hard I had to work to get the Paris Prime.)

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