Light Cant Travel Through Walls But Energy Can

[LukeAura]

Well couldn't you just say that the light reflected off the surface of nearby objects and walls to hit the enemy hiding behind said objects?

Light loses intensity on reflection, at best, it would annoy them for a second after reflecting off of something. Maybe in the upcoming ice tileset that would be a neat feature where the pure whiteness of snow would reflect more light.

 

other warframes skill can affects through walls, and yet the only frame that got the nerf is Excalibur. the only frame that have shiitty skill already.

Other waframe's skill aren't based on light, but on 'energy' or shockwaves, which do pass through metal quite well. 

[HolyDonut3]

Maybe within one room, and even then that's dependent on the room's structure, but there's no excuse for light to be somehow getting through a closed door and into a different tile.

 

And I agree that it should not affect enemies in an entirely different room. Crouching behind knee-high cover should not protect against the blinding light, however, because of light bouncing and reflecting off of nearby surfaces.

 

In it's current form, RB fails to blind enemies behind any kind of cover, even enemies standing behind other enemies right out in the open.

[vaugahn]

And I agree that it should not affect enemies in an entirely different room. Crouching behind knee-high cover should not protect against the blinding light, however, because of light bouncing and reflecting off of nearby surfaces.

 

In it's current form, RB fails to blind enemies behind any kind of cover, even enemies standing behind other enemies right out in the open.

 

I'll agree with you there. A modern flashbang wouldn't get blocked by a railing or standing behind someone, RB shouldn't either. Based on replies from Megan and Rebecca I'm assuming they'll probably fix that with the finished version of these changes. 

[sedu13]

You also can't create a Vortex with a grenade, but Vauban can. 

 

You can't Stomp to stop time, but Rhino can.

 

You can't punch a soul out of someone or revive them, or create matter out of nothing, it doesn't stop Nekros.

 

You can't fart healing orbs, but Oberon can.

 

You can't make prods or decoys appear out of thin air, but Loki can.

 

You can't teleport, but Ash can. Loki one ups and forces the enemy to switch places.

 

You can't turn to a puddle, Hydroid can.

 

I'm supposed to stand all that, but light actually affecting someone behind wall is too much.

[Metalarcher]

snip

 

People seem to always be going back to the "this is impossible!" idea in favor of or against the change, but really it has no meaning here if we are discussing actual gameplay and how enjoyable it is.

 

It's less "light actually affecting someone behind a wall is too much" and more "why would you ever need to/is it fair that you can blind someone behind a wall?"

 

It's more for the sake of gameplay; we don't really need to worry about how they do what they do here, only whether what they do is fun for us to play with.

[Zyion]

Realism and believability  are two different things. If I'm told a frame can use space magic to resurrect fallen enemies, I can accept that. I don't know the bounds of space magic, so that seems like something space magic could potentially do. It's not realistic, but it's believable. 

 

If I'm told a frame can blind enemies with a blast of light, the same thing applies as above. However, if I'm told that this light can go through walls then something different is happening. The way light works is a hard constant. It can't go straight through a solid object, no matter how much space magic is applied to it. That's not realistic or believable.

 

Things being realistic isn't important in a video game, you are correct. But things being believable is important, and we should keep that in mind.

 

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of the changes, but I think that the no-going-through-walls thing should be kept.

 

Well, if you want to go there, every Warframe has something that is completely unbelievable. Like how the Nova can throw around anti-matter like it's candy and not accidentally set off several nuclear scale explosions that would kill everyone. Or how Hydroid can somehow pull out massive amounts of water out of thin air to create tentacles. Or how Rhino can stop time for a group of guys, but still be able to interact with those guys (i.e. damage/kill them). Or how Ember and Frost can pretty much ignore the law of conservation of energy. The list goes on. If you are willing to overlook those flaws in logic, then light being able to go through/around corners shouldn't be too hard to accept.

 

However, I don't mind them nerfing Blind as long as they make sure that Blind wasn't the only useful ability for Excalibur. His other abilities kinda loose their usefulness at higher levels.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Zyion

[Gillityr]

People seem to always be going back to the "this is impossible!" idea in favor of or against the change, but really it has no meaning here if we are discussing actual gameplay and how enjoyable it is.

 

It's less "light actually affecting someone behind a wall is too much" and more "why would you ever need to/is it fair that you can blind someone behind a wall?"

 

It's more for the sake of gameplay; we don't really need to worry about how they do what they do here, only whether what they do is fun for us to play with.

 

For some people, when a game is not believable or has unrealistic powers, they do not have "fun".  "Fun" is subjective.

For some people, there is a line of "believability" that cannot be crossed too often, less they lose the desire to play.

You seem to be projecting your opinion on others.  What you find as "fun" may not jive with others.

[sedu13]

For some people, when a game is not believable or has unrealistic powers, they do not have "fun".  "Fun" is subjective.

For some people, there is a line of "believability" that cannot be crossed too often, less they lose the desire to play.

You seem to be projecting your opinion on others.  What you find as "fun" may not jive with others.

Then they wouldn't be playing a game about space ninjas. Or we wouldn't have 80% of the powers and weapons we have now.

[Gillityr]

Then they wouldn't be playing a game about space ninjas. Or we wouldn't have 80% of the powers and weapons we have now.

 

And yet again, someone who doesn't understand the difference between a desire for a "reality simulator" versus a desire for "reasonable suspension of disbelief".

 

There is a difference.

[Slamyourjam]

As you said below, solo needs lower spawn rate (or better rewards bc of the addl difficulty).

The issue is that these changes don't all come in the right order or the same time , so it feels like a nerf instead of a needed change.

 

I'd be fine with certain nerfs as long as they don't make the warframes qualities stand out less like cc, offensive and defensive. The way that it is currently is too hard for newbies to go solo, I know because I went through most of the planets solo and I struggled when I started and still do once in a while struggle although its more due to defense and mobile defense something showering you with enemies even at lower levels.

[audabon]

I agree with @gill and @sedu.  the reality argument is invalid.. the description could be changed to wave of energy instead of a nerf if that was a reality/physics issue with light waves.  its not.  its about the game, and what people consider fun.  judging by the overwhelming response against the change its looks like the majority are against the change.

[vaugahn]

Well, if you want to go there, every Warframe has something that is completely unbelievable. Like how the Nova can throw around anti-matter like it's candy and not accidentally set off several nuclear scale explosions that would kill everyone. Or how Hydroid can somehow pull out massive amounts of water out of thin air to create tentacles. Or how Rhino can stop time for a group of guys, but still be able to interact with those guys (i.e. damage/kill them). Or how Ember and Frost can pretty much ignore the law of conservation of energy. The list goes on. If you are willing to overlook those flaws in logic, then light being able to go through/around corners shouldn't be too hard to accept.

 

However, I don't mind them nerfing Blind as long as they make sure that Blind wasn't the only useful ability for Excalibur. His other abilities kinda loose their usefulness at higher levels.

 

Again, space magic. I can accept space magic explanations for all of those. However I can't accept light suddenly shooting through a wall.

 

Really though, it doesn't matter. From the gameplay side of things there's no justification for us to be able to blind enemies two tiles away. We all know that's broken.

[Gillityr]

I agree with @gill and @sedu.  the reality argument is invalid.. the description could be changed to wave of energy instead of a nerf if that was a reality/physics issue with light waves.  its not.  its about the game, and what people consider fun.  judging by the overwhelming response against the change its looks like the majority are against the change.

 

Good suggestion, but I suspect that the "reality" excuse for the change was just that: an excuse to nerf a power.  Just an assumption on my part, however.

[sedu13]

And yet again, someone who doesn't understand the difference between a desire for a "reality simulator" versus a desire for "reasonable suspension of disbelief".

 

There is a difference.

Reasonable suspension of disbelief can't include Radial Blind as it was, but Frost and Hydroid in Phobos is okay?

[Slamyourjam]

For some people, when a game is not believable or has unrealistic powers, they do not have "fun".  "Fun" is subjective.

For some people, there is a line of "believability" that cannot be crossed too often, less they lose the desire to play.

You seem to be projecting your opinion on others.  What you find as "fun" may not jive with others.

 

I believe he does have a bit of a point though. If its not logical then the nerf is kind of contradictory. The launcher nerf for example although I don't agree with is sort of logical because running around with so much ammo on a launcher would weigh you down immensely. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Slamyourjam

[Gillityr]

Reasonable suspension of disbelief can't include Radial Blind as it was, but Frost and Hydroid in Phobos is okay?

 

For some, that may be the case.  Yes.  It is a matter of opinion.  It is entirely subjective.

[audabon]

@slam warrior gods can actually carry a ballistic missle silo on their forearm. 200 grenades would be childs play.  just saying. lol

[HolyDonut3]

Again, space magic. I can accept space magic explanations for all of those. However I can't accept light suddenly shooting through a wall.

 

Really though, it doesn't matter. From the gameplay side of things there's no justification for us to be able to blind enemies two tiles away. We all know that's broken.

 

But there is justification for us to be able to use Chaos to make enemies slaughter each other two tiles away, or to be able to disarm enemies two tiles away?

[Slamyourjam]

I agree with @gill and @sedu.  the reality argument is invalid.. the description could be changed to wave of energy instead of a nerf if that was a reality/physics issue with light waves.  its not.  its about the game, and what people consider fun.  judging by the overwhelming response against the change its looks like the majority are against the change.

 

Yea the description doesn't go well with the nerf. I agree with you there.

[Slamyourjam]

@slam warrior gods can actually carry a ballistic missle silo on their forearm. 200 grenades would be childs play.  just saying. lol

 

The Ogris had 520 ammo. Where's the logic in that? 

[Zyion]

Again, space magic. I can accept space magic explanations for all of those. However I can't accept light suddenly shooting through a wall.

But... the Blind ability is space magic... every ability that the Warframes have is space magic...

 

I don't see how you can single out Blind as being the only ability in the game that isn't considered space magic.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Zyion

[sedu13]

For some, that may be the case.  Yes.  It is a matter of opinion.  It is entirely subjective.

It would be a stupid and outlandish opinion, but it would indeed be an opinion. 

 

My opinion is that "realism" and "sense" are arbitrary (especially in Warframe) compared to balance, and balance is where DE went wrong.

[Gillityr]

I believe that if this nerf had hit along with a re-balance (buffs/fixes) to the frame's other abilities, it wouldn't have been so hard to swallow.  But knowing now that this was merely an early slip of a fix that was intended down the road, *maybe* we can expect some fixes to the other abilities.  Sadly, the track record shows mostly just skill-targeted nerfs.  

[vaugahn]

But there is justification for us to be able to use Chaos to make enemies slaughter each other two tiles away, or to be able to disarm enemies two tiles away?

 

Not really. I've never once seen a game where abilities could go through walls, unless that was their specific unique feature. I think that aspect as a whole needs to be looked at. Perhaps a penalty to damage/duration if an ability goes through a wall?

 

But... the Blind ability is space magic... every ability that the Warframes have is space magic...

 

I don't see how you can single out Blind as being the only ability in the game that isn't considered space magic.

 

Blind shoots light from a sword. That part is space magic. The light then going through solid walls is the problem part.

 

Again though, does it really matter? We shouldn't be able to do things like that, any discussion of realism aside.

[Gillityr]

It would be a stupid and outlandish opinion, but it would indeed be an opinion. 

 

My opinion is that "realism" and "sense" are arbitrary (especially in Warframe) compared to balance, and balance is where DE went wrong.

 

I fail to see how calling other people's opinion "stupid and outlandish" is helping the discussion in any way.  Starting a flame war won't help anything.