Light Cant Travel Through Walls But Energy Can

[LukeAura]

Running the game solo is crippling yourself for the sake of "fun" but so is choosing a harder difficulty in any game, the harder difficulties are basically a gimp that you can apply to yourself if you wanted to. Oh no but you're too lazy so you would rather have the developers do it, right? I disagree completly with your point. Most games have pampered gamers by making them choose a preset difficulty rather than having them making it harder themselves. 

And who would actually run higher challenge in a game based around grinding like Warframe?

Games with challenge modes, difficulty sliders, and other ways to increase difficulty work because they're open in what is considered progression. In rpgs, progression is not levelling up, it's advancing the story. In Dungeon Crawlers it is advancing to the depths of the dungeon, Gear and Loot is usually handed out by exploration and advancement in the game more than the repeated farm of enemies.  

Warframe ties progression directly to farming, and farming efficiently is a direct improvement on that. Challenging yourself gives you a sense of accomplishment, but denies you the most valuable rewards.  

[Slamyourjam]

Rank 12, levelled Excal, Rhino, every frame except Trinity who I just bothered starting last week,  been here for over a year, nearly 4000 posts on these forums. My contribution to the game and forums has been recognized by the devs and I was invited in to the design council last February. 

I completely back up and agree with metalarcher's opinions and his stances on game balance and ability design. Am I accredited enough professor? 

And not levelling a frame has no bearing on time spent in the game. Not everyone wants to have a Rhino in their arsenal. 

Although I'm totally fine with the gameplay being 'easy'. But difficulty runs partially in hand with challenge. If we make the abilities and enemies engaging enough to provide a sense challenge, to be thoroughly enjoyable, then the difficulty will be brought up a little by consequence. Not enough to say that it is 'hard', like one would say a souls game is hard, but enough to feel like it is an actual triumph to overcome the obstacles present. 

 

 

It's the second most talked about change over the past day or so, listed directly in the 14.6 patch notes. 

Yes, and that doesn't have to change. Vauban specializes in ranged crowd control which is a very valuable skill. What does have to change is his ability to completely shut down the mission mode. Vauban can still be the CC king, without removing all gameplay, from the gameplay. 

 

I'm not an active poster so I didn't know. 

 

The developers should have made a poll asking the players themselves if Excalibur should be nerfed, if the majority of the votes went through then that would give them reason enough to do it but the way I see it this is not the case. Nerfing without the consent of the community is shunned upon in most online games and I'd see why. I don't have Excalibur myself but now that I heard about him having one of his only really useful skills nerfed I have no intention of getting him now.

 

I do sort of agree with you on Vauban, I haven't used him myself but if his CC is really as bad as it is for defense and mobile defense some sort of nerf could be in order. It seems that DE handles the nerfs way too hard though. The rocket launcher nerf for the weapons had most people scratch their heads.

[Slamyourjam]

And who would actually run higher challenge in a game based around grinding like Warframe?

Games with challenge modes, difficulty sliders, and other ways to increase difficulty work because they're open in what is considered progression. In rpgs, progression is not levelling up, it's advancing the story. In Dungeon Crawlers it is advancing to the depths of the dungeon, Gear and Loot is usually handed out by exploration and advancement in the game more than the repeated farm of enemies.  

Warframe ties progression directly to farming, and farming efficiently is a direct improvement on that. Challenging yourself gives you a sense of accomplishment, but denies you the most valuable rewards.  

 

Then why does the nightmare mode have mods locked behind it? It seems like DE is trying to implement harder content but they know too well that people won't go for it unless it has some sort of reward attached to it, its how gamers have become. You won't see people grinding for achievements on Steam for example or Xbox Live if it wasn't used as some of bragging right. People want harder content but many of those are veterans that have gotten a lot of the good weapons, forma'd them or potato'd them. RPGS go through a lot of grinding a farming too, older RPGS that are turn based had you farming through several areas that weren't tied to the story at all just so you could face a boss that was tied to the story.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Slamyourjam

[Metalarcher]

snip

 

You said, and I quote, "Do you wish to nerf them too and make their abilities less insignificant?"  That is a typo (or at least a mistake), because you meant to accuse me of wanting to make the abilities more insignificant, but said the opposite.  So I simply used that oversight to say that's exactly what I mean.

 

The abilities are meaningless because too many are not used as tools, but rather primary forms of damage, which weapons already are.

 

There is an overlap.  A redundancy in gameplay.  If we nerf (or, even better, rework) the abilities Warframes currently have, it probably will prevent the Warframes from being as effective in higher-level gameplay.  Does that mean the solution is to do nothing?  Of course not!  The solution is to rework the higher-level gameplay as well!

 

Put simply, I have two objects.  One is good and the other is bad.  If I change the bad one to being good, the good one becomes bad.  What should I do?  I should change both objects simultaneously to be good.  It is the same principle.

 

As for the whole "Tenno history" thing, that's heavily lore-based, and lore should never be in conflict with a game's quality.  If you would choose storyline over gameplay, we have books and movies for that.

 

And, as LukeAura said, the identity of Warframes do not have to change because their abilities get changed.  But a Warframe's abilities should not invalidate gameplay, like many do.

[Metalarcher]

Then why does the nightmare mode have mods locked behind it? It seems like DE is trying to implement harder content but they know too well that people won't go for it unless it has some sort of reward attached to it, its how gamers have become. You won't see people grinding for achievements on Steam for example or Xbox Live if it wasn't used as some of bragging right. People want harder content but many of those are veterans that have gotten a lot of the good weapons, forma'd them or potato'd them. RPGS go through a lot of grinding a farming too, older RPGS that are turn based had you farming through several areas that weren't tied to the story at all just so you could face a boss that was tied to the story.

 

Indeed, and we should all aspire to be like the player who only plays for reputation, and not his own benefit.

 

What you've just said is that games should cater to the masses who do not care for the games themselves, but rather the apparent external rewards derived from them.  If that is how you really feel, then you have no business on the forums, because we are trying to help DE make a better game here in any way we can, and not one that only brings in the crowds.  If that isn't how you really feel, you should seriously reevaluate your statements here.

[notionphil]

I'm not an active poster so I didn't know. 

 

The developers should have made a poll asking the players themselves if Excalibur should be nerfed, if the majority of the votes went through then that would give them reason enough to do it but the way I see it this is not the case. Nerfing without the consent of the community is shunned upon in most online games and I'd see why. I don't have Excalibur myself but now that I heard about him having one of his only really useful skills nerfed I have no intention of getting him now.

 

I do sort of agree with you on Vauban, I haven't used him myself but if his CC is really as bad as it is for defense and mobile defense some sort of nerf could be in order. It seems that DE handles the nerfs way too hard though. The rocket launcher nerf for the weapons had most people scratch their heads.

 

In this case, excal should not have been nerfed (at this point in time), compared to the power of many other frames. But a poll won't give that sort of nuanced feedback. However, overall....balance is critical to make multiple options viable.

 

It would be helpful if DE told us their intent before making changes so we can provide feedback.

 

IE: we want all frames equally viable | we feel that X should be challenging | every ult should have an ideal usecase and others where it fails | etc....

 

These excal and trinity changes are not the last balance changes (nerfs) we will see regarding frame abilities. DE has confirmed that excals changes were pushed ahead of schedule, but I assure you....more are coming.

 

Valkyr and Mirage should enjoy their unchecked power for now; from what I see, it will not last.

Edited September 11, 2014 by notionphil

[LukeAura]

The developers should have made a poll asking the players themselves if Excalibur should be nerfed, if the majority of the votes went through then that would give them reason enough to do it but the way I see it this is not the case. Nerfing without the consent of the community is shunned upon in most online games and I'd see why. I don't have Excalibur myself but now that I heard about him having one of his only really useful skills nerfed I have no intention of getting him now.

 

I do sort of agree with you on Vauban, I haven't used him myself but if his CC is really as bad as it is for defense and mobile defense some sort of nerf could be in order. It seems that DE handles the nerfs way too hard though. The rocket launcher nerf for the weapons had most people scratch their heads.

The Excalibur nerf was unintentionally early. It sounds like he's getting a hand full of other changes as well. We'll probably hear about them just as soon as a Megan and Rebecca actually get the info from Scott and Steve. 

 

 

Then why does the nightmare mode have mods locked behind it? It seems like DE is trying to implement harder content but they know too well that people won't go for it unless it has some sort of reward attached to it, its how gamers have become. You won't see people grinding for achievements on Steam for example or Xbox Live if it wasn't used as some of bragging right.

That's my point, if it was an option to choose permanent nightmare, with no rewards, then no one would do it because it isn't rewarding in the way this game handles rewards and progression. Most game have lots of predetermined loot, if you take longer to reach that loot by challenging yourself, you will still eventually get to it, and you know you have direct control over that pace. When people have a rough estimate of time it is a lot easier to handle adding in your own challenge.

But Warframe doles out mods by rng, you have limited influence now. Slowing down your rolls of the dice sounds like an eternity to people.  

 

 

[Slamyourjam]

You said, and I quote, "Do you wish to nerf them too and make their abilities less insignificant?"  That is a typo (or at least a mistake), because you meant to accuse me of wanting to make the abilities more insignificant, but said the opposite.  So I simply used that oversight to say that's exactly what I mean.

 

The abilities are meaningless because too many are not used as tools, but rather primary forms of damage, which weapons already are.

 

There is an overlap.  A redundancy in gameplay.  If we nerf (or, even better, rework) the abilities Warframes currently have, it probably will prevent the Warframes from being as effective in higher-level gameplay.  Does that mean the solution is to do nothing?  Of course not!  The solution is to rework the higher-level gameplay as well!

 

Put simply, I have two objects.  One is good and the other is bad.  If I change the bad one to being good, the good one becomes bad.  What should I do?  I should change both objects simultaneously to be good.  It is the same principle.

 

As for the whole "Tenno history" thing, that's heavily lore-based, and lore should never be in conflict with a game's quality.  If you would choose storyline over gameplay, we have books and movies for that.

 

And, as LukeAura said, the identity of Warframes do not have to change because their abilities get changed.  But a Warframe's abilities should not invalidate gameplay, like many do.

 

Oh, now I realize it. Yes that was a typo and I do apologize because I went over it several times but I didn't notice it. I meant to say make it less significant. Why would we have to nerf the abilities in the first place? I mean Vauban has some insane range on his vortex and like LukeAura said there's some problems with the ability but for the most part, I consider the warframe abilities to be good the way they are right now. I don't see why the game needs more focus on weapon gameplay, I don't find myself not using my weapons or rarely using them and I doubt that would change if I got Vauban since I already have Valkyr and she can go through lots of missions with invincibility on everywhere.

 

Reworking both the difficulty and the warframes would put in more and stress for the developers. They still have the tilsets to do and a lot of the bosses to work on since some of them are being used as placeholders and others aren't as engaging as they could be.

 

If I want to choose story over gameplay we have books and movies for that? That's a contradiction to your first point. Why can't gameplay and story go hand in hand in Warframe too? Is it because YOU don't care about the story and as a result its less of an issue? 

 

The identity of warframes wouldn't change but their usefulness would. 

[audabon]

sorry @luke, but its a bit odd that you randomly come in here to @metals defense.  if you re-read his posts I think you might see he continued to talk about things he doesn't know.

 

unfortunately no, a person should not comment on something they know nothing about.  if they haven't played a frame then they should stay away from judging the validity of that frame and its abilities in the context of how weak, strong, useable or not.

 

dropping your stats, that you have a lot of posts, are on the design council, and calling me professor? if that's an insult?  is probably not the best way to introduce yourself and lend credibility to your statements.  ive been playing this game longer than you have, ive paid in as a founder, and im rank 16.  so, perhaps you are trying to be the professor no? 

 

problem is, it doesn't matter how long we have played, founder, or not, design council, or not..... has a person done reasonable content with Ex in order to understand the frame and the affect this change will have.  the conversation can include all manner of commentary, but for @metal and now you to try to elevate this thread to a pssng contest is sad. 

 

you shouldn't brag on things like design council either.  or being recognized??  it makes you sound self-important, narcissistic, and reflects poorly on the design council.  its sounds like "hey ppl on the design council come busting up into threads, brag about themselves, call ppl names, and that's what It means to be recognized."  not like you will care what people think ofc. just saying. 

 

I will continue to discourse with you as long as you don't degrade things like @metal did.

[Slamyourjam]

Indeed, and we should all aspire to be like the player who only plays for reputation, and not his own benefit.

 

What you've just said is that games should cater to the masses who do not care for the games themselves, but rather the apparent external rewards derived from them.  If that is how you really feel, then you have no business on the forums, because we are trying to help DE make a better game here in any way we can, and not one that only brings in the crowds.  If that isn't how you really feel, you should seriously reevaluate your statements here.

 

You have it the wrong way, I meant that the masses are what influence and stir the developer the right way. Currently the masses want rewards with the nightmare mode, I'll guarantee you that if you were to make a poll about it the majority wouldn't want the mods taken away from the nightmare mode because players now a days don't want to harder difficulties if it doesn't come with some sort of incentive. 

[Slamyourjam]

In this case, excal should not have been nerfed (at this point in time), compared to the power of many other frames. But a poll won't give that sort of nuanced feedback. However, overall....balance is critical to make multiple options viable.

 

It would be helpful if DE told us their intent before making changes so we can provide feedback.

 

IE: we want all frames equally viable | we feel that X should be challenging | every ult should have an ideal usecase and others where it fails | etc....

 

These excal and trinity changes are not the last balance changes (nerfs) we will see regarding frame abilities. DE has confirmed that excals changes were pushed ahead of schedule, but I assure you....more are coming.

 

Valkyr and Mirage should enjoy their unchecked power for now; from what I see, it will not last.

 

Great. Nerfing Valkyr would make going through missions solo much more enjoyable. (sarcasm.)

[audabon]

@slam no need to apologize to @metal hes just trolling.  we know what you meant in that typo. there was no reason for you to get called out on that.  that was childish of @metal. gratz on your civil response tho. 

[Slamyourjam]

The Excalibur nerf was unintentionally early. It sounds like he's getting a hand full of other changes as well. We'll probably hear about them just as soon as a Megan and Rebecca actually get the info from Scott and Steve. 

 

 

That's my point, if it was an option to choose permanent nightmare, with no rewards, then no one would do it because it isn't rewarding in the way this game handles rewards and progression. Most game have lots of predetermined loot, if you take longer to reach that loot by challenging yourself, you will still eventually get to it, and you know you have direct control over that pace. When people have a rough estimate of time it is a lot easier to handle adding in your own challenge.

But Warframe doles out mods by rng, you have limited influence now. Slowing down your rolls of the dice sounds like an eternity to people.  

 

 

 

Hmm, its what I would do if I had already gotten most of the good gear but one thing they NEED to implement is enemy number=level scaling, and solo should have less enemies than grouping. Right now you have one reason to go solo and thats if your connection is horrible which mine is.

[Slamyourjam]

@slam no need to apologize to @metal hes just trolling.  we know what you meant in that typo. there was no reason for you to get called out on that.  that was childish of @metal. gratz on your civil response tho. 

 

He/she was right by saying I made a typo and I sort of denied it so I did feel as if I should have apologized.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Slamyourjam

[LukeAura]

sorry @luke, but its a bit odd that you randomly come in here to @metals defense.  if you re-read his posts I think you might see he continued to talk about things he doesn't know.

 

unfortunately no, a person should not comment on something they know nothing about.  if they haven't played a frame then they should stay away from judging the validity of that frame and its abilities in the context of how weak, strong, useable or not.

 

dropping your stats, that you have a lot of posts, are on the design council, and calling me professor? if that's an insult?  is probably not the best way to introduce yourself and lend credibility to your statements.  ive been playing this game longer than you have, ive paid in as a founder, and im rank 16.  so, perhaps you are trying to be the professor no? 

 

problem is, it doesn't matter how long we have played, founder, or not, design council, or not..... has a person done reasonable content with Ex in order to understand the frame and the affect this change will have.  the conversation can include all manner of commentary, but for @metal and now you to try to elevate this thread to a pssng contest is sad. 

 

you shouldn't brag on things like design council either.  or being recognized??  it makes you sound self-important, narcissistic, and reflects poorly on the design council.  its sounds like "hey ppl on the design council come busting up into threads, brag about themselves, call ppl names, and that's what It means to be recognized."  not like you will care what people think ofc. just saying. 

 

I will continue to discourse with you as long as you don't degrade things like @metal did.

You called him immature and inexperienced with the game.  You were dismissing his opinion based on a presumed lack of understanding. 

I agree with him, I show that I am a well learned player of Warframe. His thoughts therefore are now validated. Had you not brought up some form of lack of qualification with archer, I would not have brought up my qualifications in counter. I've also read through the thread, and it seems like he made one blunt comment at the bottom of the first page, but it was fairly accurate. While you started attacking him about wanting mag to be op in the middle of the second. You degraded things with no justification or reasoning behind your words worse than he did.  

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by LukeAura

[CY13ERPUNK]

Instead, make his 1, 3 and 4 abilities useful. Blind doesn't need to go through walls.

 

 

This.

If Excal's only efficient ability had to be nerfed, a buff for the rest of the abilities, or a rework would be appreciated.

 

these guys, GET IT

[notionphil]

Great. Nerfing Valkyr would make going through missions solo much more enjoyable. (sarcasm.)

As you said below, solo needs lower spawn rate (or better rewards bc of the addl difficulty).

The issue is that these changes don't all come in the right order or the same time , so it feels like a nerf instead of a needed change.

[Zyion]

I love it when people try to bring realism to a game about being a space ninja that flies around the solar system fighting evil clone troopers, capitalist jerks, and space cancer using their magical space ninja powers.

[Metalarcher]

You have it the wrong way, I meant that the masses are what influence and stir the developer the right way. Currently the masses want rewards with the nightmare mode, I'll guarantee you that if you were to make a poll about it the majority wouldn't want the mods taken away from the nightmare mode because players now a days don't want to harder difficulties if it doesn't come with some sort of incentive. 

 

You seem to be saying one thing, and meaning another.  I think I have it quite the right way based on what you're saying.  "People will not play the game if there is no sense of external gratification through rewards that do very little in the way of altering and deepening the gameplay."  Is that not what you meant?  And also, that the developers have to cater to that?  But what if those two things are in conflict?  Then should the developers choose what is more liked by the masses in terms of external rewards, or more liked, perhaps by less, in terms of internal rewards (gameplay depth etc.)?

[HolyDonut3]

I love it when people try to bring realism to a game about being a space ninja that flies around the solar system fighting evil clone troopers, capitalist jerks, and space cancer using their magical space ninja powers.

 

We've got a frame that resurrects fallen enemies as minions and that can punch the "soul" out of the target, but a frame with a blind that goes around cover is too unrealistic and illogical...

Edited September 11, 2014 by HolyDonut3

[vaugahn]

I love it when people try to bring realism to a game about being a space ninja that flies around the solar system fighting evil clone troopers, capitalist jerks, and space cancer using their magical space ninja powers.

 

Realism and believability  are two different things. If I'm told a frame can use space magic to resurrect fallen enemies, I can accept that. I don't know the bounds of space magic, so that seems like something space magic could potentially do. It's not realistic, but it's believable. 

 

If I'm told a frame can blind enemies with a blast of light, the same thing applies as above. However, if I'm told that this light can go through walls then something different is happening. The way light works is a hard constant. It can't go straight through a solid object, no matter how much space magic is applied to it. That's not realistic or believable.

 

Things being realistic isn't important in a video game, you are correct. But things being believable is important, and we should keep that in mind.

 

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of the changes, but I think that the no-going-through-walls thing should be kept.

Edited September 11, 2014 by vaugahn

[HolyDonut3]

Realism and believability  are two different things. If I'm told a frame can use space magic to resurrect fallen enemies, I can accept that. I don't know the bounds of space magic, so that seems like something space magic could potentially do. It's not realistic, but it's believable. 

 

If I'm told a frame can blind enemies with a blast of light, the same thing applies as above. However, if I'm told that this light can go through walls then something different is happening. The way light works is a hard constant. It can't go straight through a solid object, no matter how much space magic is applied to it. That's not realistic or believable.

 

Things being realistic isn't important in a video game, you are correct. But things being believable is important, and we should keep that in mind.

 

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of the changes, but I think that the no-going-through-walls thing should be kept.

 

Well couldn't you just say that the light reflected off the surface of nearby objects and walls to hit the enemy hiding behind said objects?

[vimviva]

Well...it makes sense doesn't it?  This isn't really an explanation-fixer, more like a gameplay-fixer, and you all should know how much we need those...

 

I mean, why would you ever need to affect an enemy that you can't see?  Or, rather, would it be fair to do so?  Excalibur's Radial Blind (for all intents and purposes) kills enemies because they can do nothing to stop their impending doom.  Wouldn't you rather it be a tool to facilitate fun gameplay, rather than an instant win button, like we have so many of right now?  I mean at that point you're hardly winning, because winning implies there were obstacles to overcome in the first place.

 

Here's hoping we see more of this and DE digs themselves out of that "press 4 to win" hole that they've dug, and will ultimately ignore feedback such as this, which boils down to "I want to play the game, but I don't want to have to do anything, so make sure every Warframe can win with a single button-press."

other warframes skill can affects through walls, and yet the only frame that got the nerf is Excalibur. the only frame that have shiitty skill already.

[vimviva]

Realism and believability  are two different things. If I'm told a frame can use space magic to resurrect fallen enemies, I can accept that. I don't know the bounds of space magic, so that seems like something space magic could potentially do. It's not realistic, but it's believable. 

 

If I'm told a frame can blind enemies with a blast of light, the same thing applies as above. However, if I'm told that this light can go through walls then something different is happening. The way light works is a hard constant. It can't go straight through a solid object, no matter how much space magic is applied to it. That's not realistic or believable.

 

Things being realistic isn't important in a video game, you are correct. But things being believable is important, and we should keep that in mind.

 

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of the changes, but I think that the no-going-through-walls thing should be kept.

in that case they should nerf the loki radial disarm, and many other warframe skills. to be fair. or they can change the light to energy blast that can travels through walls. just like other frames skill

[vaugahn]

Well couldn't you just say that the light reflected off the surface of nearby objects and walls to hit the enemy hiding behind said objects?

 

Maybe within one room, and even then that's dependent on the room's structure, but there's no excuse for light to be somehow getting through a closed door and into a different tile.

 

in that case they should nerf the loki radial disarm, and many other warframe skills. to be fair. or they can change the light to energy blast that can travels through walls. just like other frames skill

 

You completely missed the point. If the game says magic can tear weapons out of the hands of enemies, that's fine. I believe magic could do that. Forced telekinesis, or heating up the metal parts and making them drop the guns, or focused teleportation, or a psychic compulsion. It's not unreasonable to think that by using space magic radial disarm is possible. That skill is unrealistic, but believable.

 

Light cannot travel through solid objects. That's not how reality works. Unless warframe is set in a different universe and solid objects aren't actually solid, then light should not be able to go through a wall. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by vaugahn