Update 7.8.0 A Fist Full Of Hams!

[Woolytop]

"OMG, the game is punishing me for failing!"

^what you guys are saying.

 

I will concede that on defense missions, you probably shouldn't lose your rewards for failing the mission, though. Neverending defense kind of implies that it's a "Go 'til you fail" kind of thing. I will also say that I don't know if, when one person aborts, it aborts for everyone, but if it does, it shouldn't do that either. But...

 

When you fail a mission through death, you failed. You get nothing.

When you fail a mission through failure to complete an object(hostage dies, mobile defense computer gets blown up, the timer ticks down), you failed. You get nothing.

When you fail a mission through choosing to leave the level for whatever reason, you failed. You get nothing.

 

People who know that they have unreliable internet should already be used to this sort of thing. People who have an external force messing with their computer need to pay better attention to what's going on around them. If your power goes out, or your otherwise reliable internet goes down, you should be more concerned about things other than the rewards in your game. People who get stuck in the geometry, or have a briefcase bug through the floor, yes it's inconvienent, but the game's in beta. We're here, literally, BECAUSE the game has so many little kinks in it.

[NalkorRN]

"OMG, the game is punishing me for failing!"

^what you guys are saying.

 

I will concede that on defense missions, you probably shouldn't lose your rewards for failing the mission, though. Neverending defense kind of implies that it's a "Go 'til you fail" kind of thing. I will also say that I don't know if, when one person aborts, it aborts for everyone, but if it does, it shouldn't do that either. But...

 

When you fail a mission through death, you failed. You get nothing.

When you fail a mission through failure to complete an object(hostage dies, mobile defense computer gets blown up, the timer ticks down), you failed. You get nothing.

When you fail a mission through choosing to leave the level for whatever reason, you failed. You get nothing.

 

People who know that they have unreliable internet should already be used to this sort of thing. People who have an external force messing with their computer need to pay better attention to what's going on around them. If your power goes out, or your otherwise reliable internet goes down, you should be more concerned about things other than the rewards in your game. People who get stuck in the geometry, or have a briefcase bug through the floor, yes it's inconvienent, but the game's in beta. We're here, literally, BECAUSE the game has so many little kinks in it.

So we should be punished if the game bugs out and forces a host migration during a lockdown and the panels don't respond properly, leaving everyone trapped and forcing an abort? We should be punished in defense/extermination missions where an enemy ends up behind a wall/door/under the floor and forcing us to abort? We should be punished because the host if farming for one BP on a boss and doesn't get what they want, aborting and forcing a host migration, which by the way takes away all our progress towards dropped mods/BPs/Mats up to that point?

 

TL;DR version-

So we should be punished for things that happen at an alarmingly high rate during a beta all because the devs don't like people who farm BPs and this method hasn't stopped them at all?

[SparklyNoises]

"OMG, the game is punishing me for failing!"

^what you guys are saying.

 

No, no we are not, you literally did not read this thread.

 

We're here, literally, BECAUSE the game has so many little kinks in it.

 

Now you are using my own argument against me, I said this exact thing 1 post ago.

Do you know why I said it?

I'll repeat myself.

 

Put down the straw man for a second and realize that this is a beta that we are hoping to change for the better and you are being nothing but deconstructive.

 

The entire purpose of this board is to give feedback on the gameplay, SO THEY CAN CHANGE IT FOR THE BETTER.

STOP DEFENDING THE GAME LIKE BEING A BETA IS A SHIELD ITS NOT EVEN UNDER ATTACK!

[Woolytop]

So we should be punished if the game bugs out and forces a host migration during a lockdown and the panels don't respond properly, leaving everyone trapped and forcing an abort? We should be punished in defense/extermination missions where an enemy ends up behind a wall/door/under the floor and forcing us to abort? We should be punished because the host if farming for one BP on a boss and doesn't get what they want, aborting and forcing a host migration, which by the way takes away all our progress towards dropped mods/BPs/Mats up to that point?

 

TL;DR version-

So we should be punished for things that happen at an alarmingly high rate during a beta all because the devs don't like people who farm BPs and this method hasn't stopped them at all?

The problem is that there's no way to tell when these things happen from the server end, and even if there was, players could find a way to force certain game-breaking bugs making the mission impossible to complete (Find the exact spot the datamass will fall through the floor, glitch themselves out of the map, ect.)

 

The entire purpose of this board is to give feedback on the gameplay, SO THEY CAN CHANGE IT FOR THE BETTER.

STOP DEFENDING THE GAME LIKE BEING A BETA IS A SHIELD ITS NOT EVEN UNDER ATTACK!

Rescinding the change wouldn't only not make the game better, but it wouldn't solve anything. People would just go back to experience-ruining behavior that the change was made to prevent in the first place. As you've pointed out, it's not doing it's job properly, but that's because it's an incomplete change. A better system would be to make it so people who abort missions have to wait five or ten minutes to join another one: Long enough that it would have been faster to just get to extraction, short enough that it's not that big of an inconvience for people who needed to jump out because of a bug, and insignificant to someone who had a major problem like power failure or thier internet dying.

[SparklyNoises]

Rescinding the change wouldn't only not make the game better, but it wouldn't solve anything. People would just go back to experience-ruining behavior that the change was made to prevent in the first place. As you've pointed out, it's not doing it's job properly, but that's because it's an incomplete change. A better system would be to make it so people who abort missions have to wait five or ten minutes to join another one: Long enough that it would have been faster to just get to extraction, short enough that it's not that big of an inconvience for people who needed to jump out because of a bug, and insignificant to someone who had a major problem like power failure or thier internet dying.

 

Oh my god you now arguing with me with my ENTIRE ARGUEMENT

You are telling me I'm wrong and then agreeing with me.

You might as well copy and paste my posts and add the prefix "But, "

If you have a functioning car and you put in half of a better engine IT STILL WON'T RUN WITHOUT THE OTHER HALF

 

The only reason to "rescind"  the patch would be a temporary fix until they complete it or come up with a better system LIKE WE BOTH ARE SUGGESTING, THE DIFFERENCE BEING I SAID THIS IN THE FIRST POST

 

READ THE THREAD!

AND SPOILER ALERT PEOPLE STILL ABORT FARM!

[LuckyStr_ke]

good topic, great solutions,

nice to see most of us are on the same side.

 

pls DE, you know what to do

[Furyoushounen]

A whole weekend is a long time in the gaming world as those are prime gaming hours for many of us. Sadly, I've spent more time this weekend on these forums than I have playing the game because I just can't enjoy it the way I had.

 

We've all made tons of suggestions on how to improve the game and how this could have been better addressed.

 

At this point, the continued lack of response from DE on these issues just makes the entire scenario sting even more. It is bad enough that it seems they didn't consider the effects the update would have on the community at large but, on top of that, it seems that they don't even care now that it has been brought to their attention.

 

Despite the fact that many of us could have easily pointed the failings of the update's approach to the abort/farming issues, it seems now that the myriad of much more effective solutions are being ignored and the forums have become a series of divisive and toxic threads filled with idiot responses from narcissistic children and elitists toting claims of risk/reward and player skill being the main concerns.
 

A week ago, I couldn't say enough positive things about this game. Sure, like everyone, I thought there were bugs that needed to be fixed (but it is a beta, after all) but this was my favourite game. Now, I doubt in a week I'll even be playing it anymore since no one else I know has interest to. Even myself, who rarely played solo, I now just run solo alerts (if I even bother to check them) rushing with Loki and then log off because it's not worth taking my time of exploring for fear of losing everything on a net hiccup or because of one of the many bugs that run rampant still. And screw trying to play online because anyone can screw me over and cause me to lose all of my rewards by disconnecting or leaving me behind.

 

Instead of fixing the issues that needed fixing, they created a ton more and inadvertently divided and/or alienated their player base with poor development choices based on punishing the many for the sins of the few.

 

I spent $25 on the game to date, have played more than 60 hours since Update 7, and spent countless hours discussing the game in region chat and on the forums so, I would consider myself someone who would be part of the game's player base. To me, this isn't 1/10th of the game it was a week ago... it isn't even co-op game anymore. 

 

Argue with me as much as you want but this game went from promising to pathetic (imo) in a single, thoughtless update.

 

How DE responds and how quickly they employ changes at this point can make or break this game. For me, it is essentially dead but I'm on these forums hoping to hear some indication that they've come to their senses or that they even hear us.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Furyoushounen

[LuckyStr_ke]

tomorrow we will know if it's allready time to quit.

 

If they don't talk more then 5 min about problems and solutions, but 15min about laserweapons,...  or answers to ridiculous chatquestions like uuuhm will there be openworld or PVP or idk what S#&$, i will be really PlSSED

I like their work so far... weekly update monthly livestream.

Hope they don't think that last update isn't that big deal...  or quick new contant... 

 

bad weapons don't make me play more...

new challenging missions would...

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

tomorrow we will know if it's allready time to quit.

 

If they don't talk more then 5 min about problems and solutions, but 15min about laserweapons,...  or answers to ridiculous chatquestions like uuuhm will there be openworld or PVP or idk what S#&$, i will be really PlSSED

I like their work so far... weekly update monthly livestream.

Hope they don't think that last update isn't that big deal...  or quick new contant... 

 

bad weapons don't make me play more...

new challenging missions would...

Developers: New weapons and other stuff

 

Players: *Pulls out sword*

 

Developers: What?! No man, no man threathens a developer.

 

Player: You gave us an update that spoiled the game, you talk about other stuff not regarding the problem..oh I've chosen my words carefully. You should have done the same.

 

Developers: This is blasphemy, this is madness!

 

Players: Madness?! THIS IS WARFRAME!! *Kicks developers down a pit*.

[LuckyStr_ke]

Developers: New weapons and other stuff

 

Players: *Pulls out sword*

 

Developers: What?! No man, no man threathens a developer.

 

Player: You gave us an update that spoiled the game, you talk about other stuff not regarding the problem..oh I've chosen my words carefully. You should have done the same.

 

Developers: This is blasphemy, this is madness!

 

Players: Madness?! THIS IS WARFRAME!! *Kicks developers down a pit*.

hahah nice one i wanna see that lets put steve with pink shorts in front of a pit

[Liminal]

(I would suggest either shortening boss levels, or possibly moving the boss to the end of the level? )

That is f**king genius.

[Furyoushounen]

Again, the blueprint should just be the end-mission reward, like it is on every other game-type but defense.

They could have the boss drop a decent material or mod and then give a %chance that you receive a BP bonus for your work at mission end. If you don't get the BP, the RNG could give you a decent faction mod instead (helping you choose where you'd like to replay to increase your chances to find what you are specifically looking for).

 

This solution combined with not allowing people to join the game ONLY "AFTER" the boss has DIED would be a much better solution, would it not.

[Insanityman]

 

In an attempt to deter abort farming in pub games this change was introduced.

This is incorrect, what it should say is, "Failing to complete missions now forfeits any obtained credits, mods, resources or blueprints, earned XP is still rewarded."

Unfortunately this includes, crashing, running out of revives, getting stuck in the geometry, power outages, your kid turns off your PC, cat ate all the ram, etc.

This will also drastically change how people play (or don't play) defense missions.

 

Unfortunately, not only will this punish everyone (especially those with bad connections), but the people it punishes the least are the reason it happened in the first place.

People who abort farm in pub games will still leave if they don't get what they want, it does not matter.

They will only stay to completion the three times they get what they are looking for, and even then it will be a Loki race to the finish (R.I.P. wave dashing)

 

I open this thread to speculation on how long it will take to hotfix this obvious mistake, and how they might change the game to achieve the intended effects.

(I would suggest either shortening boss levels, or possibly moving the boss to the end of the level? )

#1 it was not meant to "punish" anyone. it was meant to deter.

 

#2 regarding crashing and getting stuck in geometry: i have 165 hours in this game. between both of these its happened maybe 6 times. this is surprisingly stable, and this is where the required "beta" comments apply. this is what we are looking for. stop treating this game as a release candidate (and complaining about "rewards"), and instead try to replicate where it happened. screenshots, descriptions of actions taken etc. and report it.

 

#3 this is an intended change for how defence missions are seen. i admit i have a lot of mods relative to someone just starting out and they wont have the benefits of being able to farm kiliken to wave 23 and still rake in the loot. (and by benefits what i really mean is 4 pages of common 3 fusion cores and 2 pages of "shuriken" and another 6 pages of rifle crit chance mods. in all honesty, farming defence missions gets you a lot of crap loot.)

 

#4 as for its intended change to stop the rusher+quitter combo. again i refer you to my 165 hour comment. all of the frames i have ive farmed, with the exception of my starter and excal prime. im only missing nyx and banshee.  in all the time ive spent, ive had a total of maybe 5 games where the host ditched and screwed us out of loot. post changes, even if the host leaves, IVE STILL FOUND THE BLUEPRINTS LYING AROUND. so slowing the rushers? check. deterring abort farmers w/o screwing the rest of us? check.

 

#5 why would you even comment (R.I.P. wave dashing) ?. it was an exploit. it was going to happen, and its new cousin the dual zoren dash has been brought to steve's attention (i was in chat when he was informed). its going to get thwacked too.

 

#6 as far as dealing with people who have bad connections, let me propose a solution that goes in addition to the current state: dynamic scaling based on number of players in that game. if your connection cuts for an instant, and you D/C and end up in your own lobby, you should still have a chance to make it to extraction without getting wtfpwned. if you are still pre-boss kill, there's a chance you get allies.  As for longer term outages, you were probably screwed anyway because the game wasnt going to update your status (and this wont likely change because the game is hosted client side and not server side, which means people could use this as an attack exploit to make hacking easier).  because of the speed at which missions finish at present, your team likely completed the objective as it is.  There is only so much the developer can take responsibility for the fact that their playerbase uses their phones wifi to connect to the net.

 

I realise you want to see this game go places, but I'd suggest trying the changes before calling for a rollback.  

 

Again, the blueprint should just be the end-mission reward, like it is on every other game-type but defense.

They could have the boss drop a decent material or mod and then give a %chance that you receive a BP bonus for your work at mission end. If you don't get the BP, the RNG could give you a decent faction mod instead (helping you choose where you'd like to replay to increase your chances to find what you are specifically looking for).

 

This solution combined with not allowing people to join the game ONLY "AFTER" the boss has DIED would be a much better solution, would it not.

Fury is on to something. The only thing its missing is a slight change in loot rewards for defence missions to make later waves worthwhile, so you have a reason to risk all of your potential earnings. This along with 7.8 is a step forward.

[aszabo]

It seems to me that if they reverted back to the old system and made BPs a random reward for completing a boss run then it would have been solved. As it is now the people this was meant to punish will still leave if they don't get the BP they want. This just makes them stay in 3 runs out of 5-50. Not very effective at all. If you had no idea if you were getting a BP and which one it was until you finish the mission then you would have to finish the mission. Sounds simple to me.

 

The problem with this change for me and possibly others is not so much failing from lack of skill but failing from other players actions(failed or bugged host migrations, griefing/inept players), bugged missions, disconnects, crashes, etc. My internet connection is rock solid yet I get disconnnected from a game a few times a week. I can't even remember the last time my computer crashed past the few times a week in Warframe since I started playing. We have all had missions get bugged. Like yesterday when I was on wave 30 in xini standing in front of a full health cryopod when all of a sudden "Mission Failed" splashed across my screen.

 

I think what alot of people are trying to say is that the fix is hurting players who are playing the game "as intended" far more so than BP rushing. As my example shows it really only stops them from aborting when they get the BP they want which we all know is far away from most the time. It was an ineffective and counter-productive fix. I am afraid to do high level defense not because of failure on my part but failure with the game functionality.

[SparklyNoises]

 

#1: "I forgot the first half of the opening post"

I said that it was attempt to deter, about 3 sentences before the word punish.

#2: "It doesn't happen to me why should I care, also let me stuff a bunch of words in your mouth while defending Warframe with the beta shield"

That's cute but we've been over this, like, a few posts ago.

#3: "This also doesn't happen to me"

Adorable

#5 "Out of context statement"

While fun, I never said wave dashing should still be here, it makes it harder for new players if everyone is butt-scooting faster than them with exploits.

#6+P.S.: "Instead of being deconstructive like I've been doing for the majority of this post, why don't you be constructive like this etc."

This entire thread is about constructive criticism, I've been in agreeance since the first post that a simple rollback will not solve anything and even posted a suggestion that many people agree with in the OP.

I know that reading comprehension is hard (I can tell because I had to explain this to someone an entire page ago) but the first step is

READING THE THREAD!

[CosyPigeon]

Don't abort the game for other players if someone quits - and lock them from rejoining same game.  Penalise them.  Not everyone else.  Also, I don't get why one person aborting the mission does it for everyone else.  

 

 

This. Aborting would not be an issue if one person aborting didn't ruin the entire game for the other 3 players. 

[HvcTerr]

What if an AFK is in the game and he holds the Datamasses? Then all you can do is wait or abort

Or lead enemies to him and let them kill him.

[Thaumatos]

At this point, I've only got one thing to say:

 

This change should have been implemented on ASSASSINATION (Boss) MISSIONS ONLY.

[Vilesavant]

Until 7.8.0, I had been playing several hours every night with groups upwards of 8 different people splintered into 3 or 4 man missions, all keeping in touch through Mumble.

 

Why does it feel that the only reason you are fighting so hard about this is not, as you claim, to help the game but to get back easy farm. You sound like you are more angry about the lost farm potential than anything else. You posted what DE_Steve said about it when it was first brought up, this mission type was being abused because it was easiest to farm. What most people have been asking for is to compromise about keeping stuff in the missions, primarily defense missions. Because it was easier for them to farm, thats the bottom line. I agree the reward needs looking at in this whole Risk vs Reward scenario. Other threads have also made a good observation about where this could lead, you ask to have your cake and eat it too and they give it to you the next logical step is to shaft drop rate to make up for the fact that you get to keep your stuff. In that scenario which would most of us choose? I'd rather lose my stuff on a fail than see drop rates go down the crapper. Plus, have none of us not had time with games where you lost stuff when you didn't win? I mean come on guys, we're rational here.

I really only do defense missions to level up gear, or get to another part of the map and this update has done nothing to affect my gameplay. It has had an impact on some of the negative behaviors. Granted thats my point of view, but there are only a handful of folks on the forums complaining about it, and that just sounds like those people are angry because they lost the easy farm.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Vilesavant

[simeo77]

I apologize for the double post but I have an update and my thread seems to have been buried under the din of people just now realizing that the game has been patched and they all need their own personal threads to complain that wave dashing doesn't work anymore, or they were doing a defense mission and failed.

I am quite disheartened, as interest in Warframe has almost completely evaporated in my circles.

Until 7.8.0, I had been playing several hours every night with groups upwards of 8 different people splintered into 3 or 4 man missions, all keeping in touch through Mumble.

Nearly half of them had minor connection issues to start with, but it didn't matter much before.

Now they don't see the point in playing when they could be dropped at any moment.

With less people to play with, more friends lost interest, to the point where hardly anyone even bothers to check for their log in reward.

I had completely forgotten that I had a finished Ash warframe, just waiting for me in the foundry, until just now.

What seemed to be a promising staple game is already dissolving into a flavor of the month.

I understand if you think I'm being melodramatic, there's always time for change, but for now the excitement is gone.

 

+1 This is how I feel. I was putting serious hours into the game. My wife was wanting me to come to bed and well... I didn't because I was playing warframe. Since this last patch, my marital relations have been much better. (Now if only we could do something about the in-laws.....)

 

And as a side note, I like how SparklyNoises is not only colorful with his posts... but makes complete sense. I want to join your clan... and if you don't have/in one.... make one because... yea.

Edited April 24, 2013 by simeo77

[SparklyNoises]

Why does it feel that the only reason you are fighting so hard about this is not, as you claim, to help the game but to get back easy farm.

Why does it feel like you didn't read the thread...

Oh wait I know, because in the first post I suggested moving the boss to the end of the level, making it both more difficult to farm while giving the player more reason to actually finish the level.

And if I didn't make my position clear enough already, personally, I don't care about losing rewards for legitimately failing defense missions.

They already stated that was there intent, and if that's the design they are shooting for, the balance of risk/reward could be argued for hours...

IN ANOTHER THREAD BECAUSE THIS ONE ISN'T ABOUT THAT

So go get another straw man from the garage, we're busy talking about alternative solutions to save the already dieing player-base.

[Vilesavant]

The problem is all the unpredictable, unfair problems caused by outside forces, whether it's an abort farmer getting you disconnected, the game bugging out, or simply being unable to play the game at a random moment because of real life problems.

Okay, I'm game. Read the thread, your posts being the focus. This seems to be the core of what you want the thread to be about. Look you make some valid points, you do, especially in regards to the community and success of the game. At the same time I see your melodrama and it just hurts what you're trying to do. The 'sky-is-falling' attitude is not helping. But this snippet I have here, this cannot be helped. You will always have these issues, anywhere, any game. Do you chase after Bethesda demanding to get all your loot and progress back in your Skyrim game when the power goes out? Knock down Rovio's door when your phone dies in the middle of a perfect game of Angry Birds demanding they fill those stars up? These are good changes, and in a month all this will be, "Hey, remember when?". Check out "Who moved my cheese!?", its a good story about coping with change. Lets do a quick rundown of the gameplay and whats missing since patch (I want to know whats rubbing people wrong, cause as I posted earlier. I'm not feeling it.):

1. Gunplay: check

2. Melee: check

3. Acrobatics: check

4. Powers: check

5. Choices (frames, weapons, mission types): check

6. Large varied maps: check

7. Multiple mission options: check

8. Keeping loot on a fail (or dc, or abort, etc): negative

Seems like the same game to me, just no loot on a fail. So, has no one played a game where you weren't rewarded because you didn't finish? We had it easy, now its not easy and people are in a fuss. Can it be frustrating, sure, I can empathize with that. But, I play more than just defense missions and this has had no impact on me. None. Zero. This feels like the exact same game it was 2 weeks ago, barring some new items, some bug fixes, and some corrected behaviors.

[simeo77]

Do not test my patience, puny mortal, for these fabulously dangerous beasts will kill on my command!

 

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My brain just exploded.

[Insanityman]

#1: "I forgot the first half of the opening post"

I said that it was attempt to deter, about 3 sentences before the word punish.

#2: "It doesn't happen to me why should I care, also let me stuff a bunch of words in your mouth while defending Warframe with the beta shield"

That's cute but we've been over this, like, a few posts ago.

#3: "This also doesn't happen to me"

Adorable

#5 "Out of context statement"

While fun, I never said wave dashing should still be here, it makes it harder for new players if everyone is butt-scooting faster than them with exploits.

#6+P.S.: "Instead of being deconstructive like I've been doing for the majority of this post, why don't you be constructive like this etc."

This entire thread is about constructive criticism, I've been in agreeance since the first post that a simple rollback will not solve anything and even posted a suggestion that many people agree with in the OP.

I know that reading comprehension is hard (I can tell because I had to explain this to someone an entire page ago) but the first step is

READING THE THREAD!

then why did you bring up all those things in the original post if you didnt want them discussed? its like you wanted your topic taken over by people who would slowly dismantle a bunch of things you shouldnt have said. the only thing even remotely close to reasonable in the first post is half of the last line where you said "discussion about ways to achieve the intented goals of the introduced changes".  

 

Its also cool, that everyone else can come in here, complain about how a brief disconnect ruined a gaming session, but neglect to mention how many other fully functional sessions theyve had.  What youre saying is my 4 work weeks worth of playtime with only 6 disconnects counts for nothing regarding the overall stability of the game?  Im making the point that while bugs exist that can cut a game short, they arent that frequent. I think you could use some reading comprehension lessons of your own.  Being that no one else has provided statistics of disconnects/other code failures relative to game time invested, my numbers stand, that is until someone else can add to them.  We need to see all  of the story to understand wether or not an argument has the substance to stand up to the test, providing a comment or complaint with no evidence is meaningless, but, you already knew that.

 

In short, if you had wanted constructive criticism, you could have gone about asking for it in a multitude of ways that didnt invite your own planted straw men to plant their dentures in your rear.  Starting with a rant also doesnt help.

[SparklyNoises]

Okay, I'm game. Read the thread, your posts being the focus. This seems to be the core of what you want the thread to be about. Look you make some valid points, you do, especially in regards to the community and success of the game. At the same time I see your melodrama and it just hurts what you're trying to do.

Gonna have to quote myself again on that one.

I understand if you think I'm being melodramatic, there's always time for change, but for now the excitement is gone.

 

Even though you might feel, smell and taste a thread full of petulant whining and complaints, it's actually full of fix ideas because THIS IS A FEEDBACK FORUM FOR A BETA WHERE DEVS ARE ACTIVELY CHANGING THE GAME BASED ON USER INPUT.

And I apologize if the majority of my posts seem self centered, but the fact of the matter is people who don't read the thread tend to attack the OP.

That's exactly what you and about 5 other people did, and it behooves me to defend myself and my position (which seems to be shared by a majority).

But if you'd like a list of other quality posters in this thread, I can give you one if you'd like, including but not limited to;

Sherbniz

Madotsuki

Masterninjaa

Alizianne

Deost

Furyoushounen

Feel free to quote and argue with them as much as you'd like, and who knows, I might come riding to your defense on the unicorn provided by HvcTerr.

 

Even though I was wrong, you were asking for it!

Why are people being anything but positive on a feedback forum?

It's time to stop posting...