Update 7.8.0 A Fist Full Of Hams!

[Shinobi_no_Kami]

How they could possibly make you lose these stuff?

Scenario1 rusher grabs BP and DC - he lose that BP too. The rest of you got into host migration.

Scenario2 rusher reaches extraction point, alone. No countdown since it's not initiate until half of the team got there.

Frankly, these two features got the game back the way it should be played - coop and finish the mission. Jumping onto the bandwagon without looking is a bad habit.

I'm not siding with anyone, but if the group consist of 2 rushers and 2 completionists, the completionists are always gonna be screwed, especially if the rushers are loki/ash, and the completionist are rhino/frost. The 2 tank guys are screwed. then these 2 guys complain to their completionist clans/friends, then they complain in the forum,,then more whinning, flaming and trolling from both sides. Get it?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Shinobi_no_Kami

[crianp]

I am happy with the current changes, I think they are good and I hope they won't go away.

[Grandzeit]

I'm literally stuck in a level because an elevator brought me down so far, there's a huge invisible wall in the way, and attempting to jump it teleports me back. Some high-level Extermination with only 30 enemies left.

 

I got so many sweet Mods, even the Cryo Rounds one I've been looking for forever, and now that I'm forced to Abort it, I wont get any of it. Sorta pissed.

[Jedi]

 

In an attempt to deter abort farming in pub games this change was introduced.

 

 

This is incorrect, what it should say is, "Failing to complete missions now forfeits any obtained credits, mods, resources or blueprints, earned XP is still rewarded."

Unfortunately this includes, crashing, running out of revives, getting stuck in the geometry, power outages, your kid turns off your PC, cat ate all the ram, etc.

This will also drastically change how people play (or don't play) defense missions.

 

Unfortunately, not only will this punish everyone (especially those with bad connections), but the people it punishes the least are the reason it happened in the first place.

People who abort farm in pub games will still leave if they don't get what they want, it does not matter.

They will only stay to completion the three times they get what they are looking for, and even then it will be a Loki race to the finish (R.I.P. wave dashing)

 

I open this thread to speculation on how long it will take to hotfix this obvious mistake, and how they might change the game to achieve the intended effects.

(I would suggest either shortening boss levels, or possibly moving the boss to the end of the level? )

 

 

This is a bloody great idea, last night after the patch i had this exact same idea. As soon as the patch was deployed i went on a boss run and the host quit when the boss dropped only Galium. It was clear he didnt care about the galium as he stated "he had 40" before he dc, isnt it obvious that this patch has been and under sight as the people that are only wanting blue prints will still DC no matter what and the rest of the party lose the matterials after a host switch.

 

Instead of running all the way back to the start of the lvl there should be an escape pod close to the boss after you beat him, this is typical for any boss killing I dont have any idea why we need to run all the way back to complete.

[Toonv5]

Punish the quitters not legit players......

Hitting abOrt button = no reward s

For everything else rewards must be given

What if an AFK is in the game and he holds the Datamasses? Then all you can do is wait or abort

[Alizianne]

Warframe does (or did) and thats why a majority of people enjoyed it.

Failure or disconnection had it's downsides already (loss of bonus credit and XP) and the people currently playing liked it that way.

The challenge came from the grind, as is the case with most F2P games.

In good F2P games you are drip fed continuous progress to give you a sense of progression while teasing you with what you could have sooner if you pay money.

With this update they have destroyed the current sense of progression by wratcheting up the tension and the required commitment to play the game.

 

Before, I could start and stop playing whenever I wanted because leaving my own private games wasn't a big deal.

I've already had to break play sessions several times tonight to handle other things, negating my progress.

This is bad game design, it doesn't make me want to play and it certainly isn't convincing my F2P friends to spend money.

 

Exactly this.  Here's a question to everybody defending this change: At what point did "keeping everything you find" become a problem?  Why is anybody actually suggesting ways to take away items that players have found in-game (that is, not mission completion rewards, which should rightfully not be rewarded)?  It's not like this game has an auction house and speedfarming bosses caused the Gallium market to tank.  It's not like people are abusing the system to get and trade all kinds of rare mods - those were tedious enough to find BEFORE this patch, and now you run the risk of losing them to a simple disconnect.  I can't think of a single situation where a player should actually have items they picked up that mission taken from them.  If they abort, it means they don't get the completion rewards and any other things that would have dropped had they stayed.  I'd say that's a pretty fair trade!

 

The actual problem that DE was attempting to fix was farmers leaving pub games after they didn't get the drops they wanted.  Instead of enacting a new system to punish every single person who plays this game for being unable to complete a mission for one reason or another, they should take a look at WHY players leave.  Boss missions aren't succinct, and the joy/disappointment of getting/not getting what you wanted is frontended in the first 2 minutes of the mission.  If you don't want to lose anything, you then have to spend an uneven amount of time just getting out of the mission to retry; if you don't CARE about losing anything, you're still going to abort the mission.  If you want to solve the problem, change the structure of boss missions so that they're consistently paced and provide your reward close enough to the end that it doesn't take forever to walk to extraction.

 

With the current system you're just being hostile toward the player for no real reason.  One of the biggest reasons I loved playing this game is because it was pretty kind and forgiving; it didn't question me for having my internet skip during a defense mission, it just let me abort my splintered-off version to rejoin my friends.  It didn't feel like an unfair teacher chastising me because my dog literally ate my homework.  It didn't create any weird confusing moments of "Wait, didn't I find a Cryo Rounds today?  Where'd it go?  Oh yeah, my game crashed 10 feet from extraction."

 

Please don't make it start.  There are already too many games that don't give the player the benefit of the doubt.

[BoogieMan82]

While it may not be the "best" solution, it is a great solution IMHO for now.  Why should you get rewards for not completely beating a mission regardless of why?

If you died... should you get rewarded for that?
If your internet failed... well, that just sucks, but it happens.

The only issue I have with it is regarding defense; however, I can live with it.

[Datasaur]

or possibly moving the boss to the end of the level? )

 

This makes so much sense to me. Is there a reason bosses are in middle of level?

[Ced23Ric]

There is literally no point in me or several of my friends playing with this patch because our connections make it so that we would lose everything far too often.

 

Okay. I guess you got all your XP in other online games, you crash out of, then? You just rejoin WoW raids, hop back into BL:R games with all your combat points, and hop back into Battlefield with all your XP earned? It's only Warframe where this doesn't work?

 

I bet in Monday or tuesday they will do something.

 

I am pretty sure they won't do anything to this new addition, as it is completely legitimate.

[Alizianne]

Okay. I guess you got all your XP in other online games, you crash out of, then? You just rejoin WoW raids, hop back into BL:R games with all your combat points, and hop back into Battlefield with all your XP earned? It's only Warframe where this doesn't work?

 

A) Nobody plays those games

B) Just because some games punish you for disconnecting doesn't mean every game should.

C) You can reconnect at any point during any of WoW's content and never lose progress for doing so, but even if you couldn't, that game tries to re-establish your connection for a few moments.  Warframe always drops me completely when my internet skips for just a second or two.

 

All major MMOs like WoW, GW2, LotRO, and so on don't delete items you picked up before a disconnect. Diablo saves your progress when you disconnect. Battlefield 3 keeps any unlocks you've gotten. Planetside 2 doesn't punish you.

 

There are a lot of games that save all of your progress up to the moment you disconnect, and most of them try to re-establish the connection and let you reconnect to the game quickly if your internet does skip.  There isn't anything like that in place right now for Warframe, so if my internet cuts for 5 whole seconds, I either finish the mission on my own or abort to rejoin my friends.  I don't disconnect very often when I play games, but Warframe is a bit buggy and my friends and I all have to deal with the occasional crash, disconnect, or unwinnable mission - like when a friend got locked into one of the new Grineer rooms that didn't have a hack panel inside of it.

[Deost]

I think each 5th wave should have a save point. So when you go ahead - and some people quit instead - you won't lose your work and you get the mods you fought for. 

 

However. . .if you die on the 9th wave you keep 1-5's but you lose 6-9's stuff. 

 

This'll keep peeps from bailing and not penalize people who want to do the higher wave stuff. 

 

 

The other problem is with host migration - if you quit? Everyone else shouldn't lose their stuff. 

 

Only the person quitting should.

 

Everyone else should keep their stuff.

 

That's the fair solution. (Though, I've no idea how hard that would be to code considering the host has all the stuff..)

[Deaths.Reap3r]

Punish the quitters not legit players......

Hitting abOrt button = no reward s

For everything else rewards must be given

 

Yah, but then... Alt+Tab, rightclick warframe, close, reopen warframe, log in. Profit.I know thats more annoying than forfiting, but it will still be used.And tbh, when I start up warframe, it takes about 20 secs for me to be logged in and playing...

[SparklyNoises]

I've been carefully observing this and other threads and I thought I'd address some patterns I've noticed.

"I like this patch because it stops abort farmers"
You are wrong, plain and simple. They haven't stopped. Why would they stop? If you have an answer for this I'd like to hear it.
People farm bosses for frame pieces, not for mods, not for money, and not for XP.
If they don't get the piece they want, they will leave because it took them 1 minute to get to the boss and it takes 10 complete the mission.
If they want mats they'll farm them on a different level.
There is only a slim chance of them getting a mod card so compelling it makes them want to stay.
And now that they can complete random missions in their spare time and get 10,000 credits for one mission,
What reason could they possibly have to stay when they don't get what they came for?

"I don't crash or lose connection (or play pub games) so I don't care"
Other than being a toxic attitude for a game that's supposedly in beta, you really should care.
If you care about this game at all (read as: If you like it and would like to continue to play it) you should care about it's community, because F2P games are built on the foundation of it's player-base.
Introducing discouraging gameplay mechanics like this (especially in a game barely out of it's infancy) kills it's accessibility for new players and stunts growth, eventually leading to the games downfall.

"I lEik teh chalinJ it moOR like Dark Souls"
Having beaten Dark Souls multiple times with multiple builds, I can honestly say, you have no idea what you are talking about and need to stop posting.
Nobody has a problem with challenge, and personally I don't really mind losing items if I wasn't skilled enough to win, but that's not the problem.
The problem is all the unpredictable, unfair problems caused by outside forces, whether it's an abort farmer getting you disconnected, the game bugging out, or simply being unable to play the game at a random moment because of real life problems.

This patch needs a rework otherwise its just hurting everyone with a benefit to no one.

I've also gotten the sense that some people seem to fear the idea of change, even though this is a beta, and a change is what brought this about in the first place, so I have no idea what to say to these people.

[Effef]

A) Nobody plays those games

B) Just because some games punish you for disconnecting doesn't mean every game should.

C) You can reconnect at any point during any of WoW's content and never lose progress for doing so, but even if you couldn't, that game tries to re-establish your connection for a few moments.  Warframe always drops me completely when my internet skips for just a second or two.

 

All major MMOs like WoW, GW2, LotRO, and so on don't delete items you picked up before a disconnect. Diablo saves your progress when you disconnect. Battlefield 3 keeps any unlocks you've gotten. Planetside 2 doesn't punish you.

 

There are a lot of games that save all of your progress up to the moment you disconnect, and most of them try to re-establish the connection and let you reconnect to the game quickly if your internet does skip.  There isn't anything like that in place right now for Warframe, so if my internet cuts for 5 whole seconds, I either finish the mission on my own or abort to rejoin my friends.  I don't disconnect very often when I play games, but Warframe is a bit buggy and my friends and I all have to deal with the occasional crash, disconnect, or unwinnable mission - like when a friend got locked into one of the new Grineer rooms that didn't have a hack panel inside of it.

All of this. There is absolutely no reason I, as a player, should be punished because the game crashes or my internet cuts out. Its a dumb achaic mechanic and it needs to go away.

 

I got into this game because it was easy to pick up and play and fairly forgiving. I have neither the time nor the willingness to play a mission for 15 minutes and then lose everything i earned because the game didn't feel like working correctly or my campus intenet is garbage (it is).

 

And yes, this does happen. Just because it does not happen to you does not mean it does not happen.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Effef

[Furyoushounen]

I've been carefully observing this and other threads and I thought I'd address some patterns I've noticed.

"I like this patch because it stops abort farmers"

You are wrong, plain and simple. They haven't stopped. Why would they stop? If you have an answer for this I'd like to hear it.

People farm bosses for frame pieces, not for mods, not for money, and not for XP.

If they don't get the piece they want, they will leave because it took them 1 minute to get to the boss and it takes 10 complete the mission.

If they want mats they'll farm them on a different level.

There is only a slim chance of them getting a mod card so compelling it makes them want to stay.

And now that they can complete random missions in their spare time and get 10,000 credits for one mission,

What reason could they possibly have to stay when they don't get what they came for?

"I don't crash or lose connection (or play pub games) so I don't care"

Other than being a toxic attitude for a game that's supposedly in beta, you really should care.

If you care about this game at all (read as: If you like it and would like to continue to play it) you should care about it's community, because F2P games are built on the foundation of it's player-base.

Introducing discouraging gameplay mechanics like this (especially in a game barely out of it's infancy) kills it's accessibility for new players and stunts growth, eventually leading to the games downfall.

"I lEik teh chalinJ it moOR like Dark Souls"

Having beaten Dark Souls multiple times with multiple builds, I can honestly say, you have no idea what you are talking about and need to stop posting.

Nobody has a problem with challenge, and personally I don't really mind losing items if I wasn't skilled enough to win, but that's not the problem.

The problem is all the unpredictable, unfair problems caused by outside forces, whether it's an abort farmer getting you disconnected, the game bugging out, or simply being unable to play the game at a random moment because of real life problems.

This patch needs a rework otherwise its just hurting everyone with a benefit to no one.

I've also gotten the sense that some people seem to fear the idea of change, even though this is a beta, and a change is what brought this about in the first place, so I have no idea what to say to these people.

 

Thank you for caring about the game and the community. It is good to see other people actually want to see it succeed instead of just caring about what directly affects them in the short-term.

 

[Furyoushounen]

Exactly this.  Here's a question to everybody defending this change: At what point did "keeping everything you find" become a problem?  Why is anybody actually suggesting ways to take away items that players have found in-game (that is, not mission completion rewards, which should rightfully not be rewarded)?  It's not like this game has an auction house and speedfarming bosses caused the Gallium market to tank.  It's not like people are abusing the system to get and trade all kinds of rare mods - those were tedious enough to find BEFORE this patch, and now you run the risk of losing them to a simple disconnect.  I can't think of a single situation where a player should actually have items they picked up that mission taken from them.  If they abort, it means they don't get the completion rewards and any other things that would have dropped had they stayed.  I'd say that's a pretty fair trade!

 

The actual problem that DE was attempting to fix was farmers leaving pub games after they didn't get the drops they wanted.  Instead of enacting a new system to punish every single person who plays this game for being unable to complete a mission for one reason or another, they should take a look at WHY players leave.  Boss missions aren't succinct, and the joy/disappointment of getting/not getting what you wanted is frontended in the first 2 minutes of the mission.  If you don't want to lose anything, you then have to spend an uneven amount of time just getting out of the mission to retry; if you don't CARE about losing anything, you're still going to abort the mission.  If you want to solve the problem, change the structure of boss missions so that they're consistently paced and provide your reward close enough to the end that it doesn't take forever to walk to extraction.

 

With the current system you're just being hostile toward the player for no real reason.  One of the biggest reasons I loved playing this game is because it was pretty kind and forgiving; it didn't question me for having my internet skip during a defense mission, it just let me abort my splintered-off version to rejoin my friends.  It didn't feel like an unfair teacher chastising me because my dog literally ate my homework.  It didn't create any weird confusing moments of "Wait, didn't I find a Cryo Rounds today?  Where'd it go?  Oh yeah, my game crashed 10 feet from extraction."

 

Please don't make it start.  There are already too many games that don't give the player the benefit of the doubt.

 

Great post

[zolop]

I can see people having a problem with this change because if they have crashes with the client (warframe is still considered Beta by developers) Though I also agree that if the player did not survive the mission or aborted they should not get the mods/tems.  My guess is that the developered didn't make this into a game to farm items, so that had to make changes that made the player complete the mission for item farming. Item/mod farming will still happen, just as a slower pace.  The more reason to NOT have a player auction in this game right now.

 

 

I think this is a good change into the game, its not the end of the world if we missed a virtual game item (unless people did pay for it with real world money, NOT talking about founder pack).  My life is not entirely dependent on Warframe, can't over-react to this and see a bigger idea for the games development..

 

A challenge is good, that makes the player have to think about how to work as a team.  Makes the game more exciting and makes staying alive to keep the items all the more important.

Edited April 21, 2013 by zolop

[Sealgaire]

I understand why some people are unhappy about the new abort/failure not giving rewards even though I'm in favor of it, but to the people bringing up connectivity or power outage issues: are you not aware that you've never received anything from a mission when your connection drops? It's been like that since the beginning; if you lose your connection to the server, you can't update your account, this patch has nothing to do with that.

 

As far as not getting your mods if you fail a defense mission, it should have been like that since the beginning, if you don't think you can handle the next five waves, possibly because too many people claimed their reward and exited, you should end it there. The whole point is you're gambling on your ability to keep fighting for more and better rewards, knowing that if you fail you won't receive anything. That's what makes it a thrill to me at least. In essence you're going "all in", and when you do that in a casino, you don't get to ask the dealer nicely to get back what you wouldn't have lost if you hadn't gone all in when you lose.

 

Yes, having to abort due to bugs sucks, and is the only legitimate complaint about these changes in my eyes, but unless I've been extremely lucky, people are exaggerating how common this is. In my experience, I have to abort maybe one in twenty missions due to reasons beyond my control, and I'm willing to live with that, especially considering this is a beta and these issues will only become rarer as time goes by. That's not blind optimism on my part, but the very clear trend that I've noticed in my four months or so of playing this game.

[TennoSkoom]

I find I break maps far too often, because I like exploring, and deliberately going off the beaten track, even when seriously playing.

 

An /Unstuck command would do wonders if it checked first which tile you were in (or last in), and then checked where the default spawn point for that tile is. The Default spawn is the point where items reappear if they fall into a teleport volume.

 

 

this has been brought up before and would mostly fix the problem of being unable to complete a mission because you're stuck in the geometry. prior to this last change you could have your friends or the people you were playing with finish the mission for you and still get your stuff. right now the patch prohibits you from exploring and perhaps even locating new bugs/glitches with tilesets because not only will you be stuck with no way back- but you'll not get anything once the mission is over. i've also suggested that said unstuck command send info to devs to help quickly identify such geometry issues. this can be via a database entry, fstream to a server-side log in tabular format, or even an email to a designated account. it shouldn't be hard to add designated 'safe zones' to each chunk/tile and have it respawn you to said tile and utilize a 'cooldown' timer of 5-10 minutes to prevent abuse of the /unstuck command (eg teleporting away from a mob that's about to kill you) or a delay in it's activation to make sure you're not taking fire and are legitamately stuck.

[Alizianne]

I understand why some people are unhappy about the new abort/failure not giving rewards even though I'm in favor of it, but to the people bringing up connectivity or power outage issues: are you not aware that you've never received anything from a mission when your connection drops? It's been like that since the beginning; if you lose your connection to the server, you can't update your account, this patch has nothing to do with that.

 

This isn't really correct.  If your internet disconnects, it does a host migration and puts you into a game on your own.  Obviously, if you finished the mission while disconnected, or were disconnected for a really long time, yes, you wouldn't get anything.  When most peoples' internet cuts out, it's only for several seconds, which is just enough to be dropped from a multiplayer match and migrated to their own copy of the mission.  With the way it is now, they now have to choose to finish the mission alone to keep what they earned up to that point, or suck it up and abort, lose everything, and rejoin on their friends; whereas before, whenever I disconnected for a couple seconds, I always just aborted, kept what I had done so far, and hopped back in to continue.  No lost progress, no frustration, no punishment.

 

The whole point is you're gambling on your ability to keep fighting for more and better rewards, knowing that if you fail you won't receive anything. That's what makes it a thrill to me at least. In essence you're going "all in", and when you do that in a casino, you don't get to ask the dealer nicely to get back what you wouldn't have lost if you hadn't gone all in when you lose.

 

Actually, the whole point of defense missions before now is that you're gambling on your end-of-mission reward.  The nice thing about it in the past was that if you wanted to try to make it to wave 20, but you died as far in as you could manage, you still kept your pickups which would help you do a little better in your next attempts.  This was great for new players who were still learning and improving, who didn't have max-level frames with potatoes and max-level mods.

 

I feel like the risk vs. reward of those missions was already sufficient with just the mission completion rewards, but if they wanted to make it more interesting they could just increase the amount of completion rewards as you went on, rather than just improving the quality of one mod.  I get that you find it more interesting, but consider how it is for newer, less-skilled players.  It's not really fun losing an hour of work by failing a defense mission that you were attempting to go far in for the first time.  It's not "challenging", it's just a frustrating waste of time, and while I agree that it would be interesting if they added more venues for risk versus reward in the game, it should come in the form of new content rather than frustrating punishments.  Like a Hardcore Defense mission, for instance, where the stakes are high from the beginning.

[SparklyNoises]

HEY THERE FOLKS!

Seeing as this thread has moved on to the third page, and how most forum posters don't bother reading the entire thread even when it's only 3 pages long, I figured I'd leave a colorful reminder that you should.

Other people might even have information relevant to what you are about to post.

 

And I'd like to welcome you all to Day 3 of 7.8.0 "It's HAM-ENING!"

Along with a reminder that everyone has their gripes with this patch, unfortunately for some they are intentional.

Correct, this mission type (defense) is about risk/reward tradeoffs. There was no risk before. We also feel this will help with the situation that certain players are *only* playing this gametype since there was no risk and it was the easist way to farm.

 

The real problem with this patch is it's inefficacy and indiscriminate punishment towards unintended parties.

But don't worry folks, even though they don't seem keen on simply reverting these changes until they get their shizz together, they're "looking into it."

Edited April 21, 2013 by SparklyNoises

[SparklyNoises]

I apologize for the double post but I have an update and my thread seems to have been buried under the din of people just now realizing that the game has been patched and they all need their own personal threads to complain that wave dashing doesn't work anymore, or they were doing a defense mission and failed.

I am quite disheartened, as interest in Warframe has almost completely evaporated in my circles.
Until 7.8.0, I had been playing several hours every night with groups upwards of 8 different people splintered into 3 or 4 man missions, all keeping in touch through Mumble.
Nearly half of them had minor connection issues to start with, but it didn't matter much before.

Now they don't see the point in playing when they could be dropped at any moment.
With less people to play with, more friends lost interest, to the point where hardly anyone even bothers to check for their log in reward.
I had completely forgotten that I had a finished Ash warframe, just waiting for me in the foundry, until just now.
What seemed to be a promising staple game is already dissolving into a flavor of the month.

I understand if you think I'm being melodramatic, there's always time for change, but for now the excitement is gone.

[Naqel]

If you have a bad connection, you're collateral damage. You probably shouldn't be playing online games in the first place: your DC's screw over your team mates just as much as losing progress on DC screws over you. You're a hypocrite and you should feel bad about it.

 

If your cat ate all of your RAM, you've got bigger problems than not getting a reward for ~20 minutes of playtime...

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Actually why don't they just make blueprints disappear if you abort or fail. You can keep the rest.

[SparklyNoises]

If you have a bad connection, you're collateral damage. You probably shouldn't be playing online games in the first place: your DC's screw over your team mates just as much as losing progress on DC screws over you. You're a hypocrite and you should feel bad about it.

 

If your cat ate all of your RAM, you've got bigger problems than not getting a reward for ~20 minutes of playtime...

 

Your attitude is toxic, you only care about yourself, having a bad connection never ruined entire missions before the patch.

That's the entire point of thread.

And why do people keep quoting an impossible fictional scenario added as a joke instead of the myriad of legitimate reasons to disconnect that no one can control.

Put down the straw man for a second and realize that this is a beta that we are hoping to change for the better and you are being nothing but deconstructive.

Go play "Ruse Man" somewhere else.

 

 

Actually why don't they just make blueprints disappear if you abort or fail. You can keep the rest.

 

Now that's what we wanna see!

Practical solutions for the root problem that don't hurt other player's experience.

Good on ya mate.