Dedicated Servers For Fair Pvp

[HiTekRedNek]

1) Exactly. There will NEVER be balance unless that system was in place. However, that system would absolutely SUCK for Warframe. It goes back to the issue that Warframe (and Destiny) is focused towards PvE, and it's interactions.

2) Warframe follows the generic free-to-play RPG/MMO model. Destiny follows the generic RPG/MMO model. They are very similar in gameplay. Exactly how is the playstyle different?

3) I hold a different view. It is pessimistic, but it works.

Expect the worst, celebrate the best.

I've done an awful lot if celebrating, but I'm still going to state any problems I see/foresee.

4) That's the reason we're having this discussion. I think PvP needs a lot more work before it is ready to get dedicated servers. In its current state, I doubt they would be used all that often (save for the big battle pays of course).

I'm confused. You just agreed to what I said, then said the exact opposite in the very next sentence. Is there a difference in the different weapon iterations; yes, and it is meant to be that way. Would I ever suggest a person that just started the game to run into PvP with a MK-1 weapon? No, those weapons are meant for beginning players to level and learn the game with, and play through the first couple planets; but, a normal Braton with a little work and a reactor is not entirely terrible. Are there better weapons out there, including the Vandal or Prime versions, yea there are, but having that weapon at full rank is not going to entirely cripple you in PvP. I would suggest that you at least have one forma and a catalyst in anything used for PvP, just for how the system works. People say, "but that costs plat;" but, be honest, formas, catalysts, and reactors do come up somewhat often between the alerts and invasions that are running. In fact alot more often than it used to. Yea, so it does take some time to get prepared for pvP, and in my opinion it should be that way, if it was up to me I think they should put a mastery requirement to be able to PvP, say rank 4 or rank 5, because by then they should have a general knowledge of most of the weapons and frames, or know someone or somewhere to get it.

2) So now we're comparing all F2P RPGs/MMO/Shooters... come one dude..... Destiny plays more like borderlands than it does Warframe, and for the last time Warframe was out and developed first when compared to Destiny. With that said, we weren't comparing Destiny to Warframe, you were comparing Halo to Warframe. FPS vs TPS, Basic Movement vs Parkour System, 20 or so weapons vs 100+ weapons with equip-able melee weapons with unique stances and attacks.... we can sit here and argue differences and similarities all day long, but it doesn't change the fact that the games are different.

3) your a glass half empty kinda a guy, that may work for you, but you should really not try to hang your disappointments from a totally different different developer and game on DE and Warframe. Yes you can have your own opinion, but I personally find it "pessimistic" and negative, and I would like to see less of that on the forum and I don't mind speaking out against it.

4) True, but you cannot deny that by putting dedicated servers in place they could minimize lag, take away the obvious advantage held by the hosts when attacking, minimize exploits being used by hosts, and make it easier to identify issues that need to be fixed. The advantages outweigh the risk of trying.

Edited October 15, 2014 by HiTekRedNek

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

1) This is where you've ripped apart your own argument. You stated that skill and strategy are the determining factors, yet you just stated that players should "have one forma and a catalyst in anything used for PvE." It's good to know that you have played FPS games. Let me ask you something: what is the most often discussed topic in any game that focuses on PvP? Balance. Why, because the staple of a good PvP game is its competitive nature. I beat you because if my skill and experience, not my equipment.

Yet, you yourself, throughout your post, stated that players should have a certain level of gear to preform well. Throughout this argument, you've said that skill and planning trumps equipment, but then you have just stated that the MK1-Braton should not be taken into PvP because it isn't good enough to compete. That's a conflict of interest.

Bungie realized this. That RPG/MMO elements do not work with PvP elements. So they implemented a system that fixed it. That system is the averaging system. The system that you said was "Really, so it should just be a visual upgrade? What are we playing GWs 2?"

So let me get this straight. You agree that balance is impossible in PvP, yet you dislike the solution (along with everyone else). The reason I agreed with you is because the averaging system sucks, but it was Bungie's best option.

2) Borderlands is a RPG. Destiny is a RPG. Warframe is a RPG/MMO. They all share the same base elements. Hence the reason I bring Destiny up so much. Especially with Bungie's system talked about above.

3) This is opinionated at this point. I say we end this discussion.

4) DE are really the only ones to determine this I suppose. Maybe putting in dedicated servers is a good idea, maybe it isn't. For the record, I would like dedicated servers for PvP and T3/4 voids.

Edited October 15, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[--Saph--]

1) This is where you've ripped apart your own argument. You stated that skill and strategy are the determining factors, yet you just stated that players should "have one forma and a catalyst in anything used for PvE." It's good to know that you have played FPS games. Let me ask you something: what is the most often discussed topic in any game that focuses on PvP? Balance. Why, because the staple of a good PvP game is its competitive nature. I beat you because if my skill and experience, not my equipment.

Yet, you yourself, throughout your post, stated that players should have a certain level of gear to preform well. Throughout this argument, you've said that skill and planning trumps equipment, but then you have just stated that the MK1-Braton should not be taken into PvP because it isn't good enough to compete. That's a conflict of interest.

Bungie realized this. That RPG/MMO elements do not work with PvP elements. So they implemented a system that fixed it. That system is the averaging system. The system that you said was "Really, so it should just be a visual upgrade? What are we playing GWs 2?"

So let me get this straight. You agree that balance is impossible in PvP, yet you dislike the solution (along with everyone else). The reason I agreed with you is because the averaging system sucks, but it was Bungie's best option.

2) Borderlands is a RPG. Destiny is a RPG. Warframe is a RPG/MMO. They all share the same base elements. Hence the reason I bring Destiny up so much. Especially with Bungie's system talked about above.

3) This is opinionated at this point. I say we end this discussion.

4) DE are really the only ones to determine this I suppose. Maybe putting in dedicated servers is a good idea, maybe it isn't. For the record, I would like dedicated servers for PvP and T3/4 voids.

Ok I understand why you are bringing up Destiny, as many people have argued that they are quite similar and I would agree with you.  However, bringing up Borderlands discredits your argument.  Borderlands is nothing like Warframe.  Borderlands is basically a first-person Diablo, while Warframe is a Space ninja RPG/MMO.  They are nothing at all alike.  Destiny and Borderlands are quite similar yes but that doesn't mean that it is similar to Warframe.  

 

It's also quite ignorant for you to take a post like this and derail it so far from the original purpose.  The purpose of this post was to bring up the issue of balancing with PVP and how dedicated servers could fix the problem.  This was not a post meant to talk about how similar or dissimilar Warframe and Destiny are.  What you are doing is detracting from the issue at hand.  The balancing issues with PVP in Warframe are a problem and one that should be fixed as soon as possible.  You may agree with us that dedicated servers would solve the issue but its hard to tell that when you keep getting off topic.

[HiTekRedNek]

1) This is where you've ripped apart your own argument. You stated that skill and strategy are the determining factors, yet you just stated that players should "have one forma and a catalyst in anything used for PvE." It's good to know that you have played FPS games. Let me ask you something: what is the most often discussed topic in any game that focuses on PvP? Balance. Why, because the staple of a good PvP game is its competitive nature. I beat you because if my skill and experience, not my equipment.

Yet, you yourself, throughout your post, stated that players should have a certain level of gear to preform well. Throughout this argument, you've said that skill and planning trumps equipment, but then you have just stated that the MK1-Braton should not be taken into PvP because it isn't good enough to compete. That's a conflict of interest.

Bungie realized this. That RPG/MMO elements do not work with PvP elements. So they implemented a system that fixed it. That system is the averaging system. The system that you said was "Really, so it should just be a visual upgrade? What are we playing GWs 2?"

So let me get this straight. You agree that balance is impossible in PvP, yet you dislike the solution (along with everyone else). The reason I agreed with you is because the averaging system sucks, but it was Bungie's best option.

2) Borderlands is a RPG. Destiny is a RPG. Warframe is a RPG/MMO. They all share the same base elements. Hence the reason I bring Destiny up so much. Especially with Bungie's system talked about above.

3) This is opinionated at this point. I say we end this discussion.

4) DE are really the only ones to determine this I suppose. Maybe putting in dedicated servers is a good idea, maybe it isn't. For the record, I would like dedicated servers for PvP and T3/4 voids.

1) OMG really, I have said from the very beginning that I do not recommend beginning players try to rush into PvP, I would never recommend a player rush into PvP even on a FPS, at least play the story for a bit and understand the controls and mechanics of the game before you jump in and get your &#! kicked by the people that's been playing since day one.. That point never changed. Having a catalyst and forma is not 100 % necessary, but as part of planning to go in it helps very much because of the nature of how mod space works and how mods unlock in PvP, don't try to twist that. As far as talking about the MK-1 weapons, I said "would I ever suggest a person that just started the game to run into PvP with a MK-1 weapon? No, those weapons are meant for beginning players to level and learn the game with, and play through the first couple planets," it doesn't mean that you can't do it, it's just not practical. With the MK-1 variants aside, you can pretty much use any weapon with skill and planning and be able to contribute to a team in PvP. You may not get as many kills as the guy who has fully prepared and readied his equipment specifically for PvP, but that is a part of playing the game, and in my opinion it should be the reward for those that have put the time and effort to polarize a couple slots and arrange their mods properly. You and a lot of people like to say "it's not fair to the new players," and to be honest, I'm ok with that. That may sound harsh, but one of the biggest mistakes made by developers is when they do things that spit in the eye of the people who have been playing the game from the beginning. If your purpose is to get involved in PvP, really how hard is it to get the things in  place? Get a frame you like, work your way and run through the planets to unlock all the sectors, while you're doing that you should level a few weapons, maybe another frame along the way, play a cpl invasions for a catalyst, reactor, or forma; next thing you know it boom you're around mastery 4 or 5 anyway, and you have the basic equipment changes that make PvP much better than going in with stock slot layouts. Most of this can be done in a week, even quicker if you are playing with friends or with a clan or alliance. Another thing to look at is the mods themselves. Is a player that's been playing for a week by themselves going to have access to full serrations, vitality, redirection...etc., etc. Nope and you know what, that's fair also, but that still doesn't mean that if they only go in with a rank 5 serration they are going to be completely nerfed for damage because of the system in place. In fact if polarized correctly using a lower rank serration can actually be a bit of advantage in the early game of a sector because it requires less level to unlock (oh wait, there's some of that balance that people say doesn't exist). Balance comes in time, with the help of knowledge, strategy, and good teamwork. No matter what game you play, a teams the prepares and studies the game, will almost alway win against unprepared opponents. I mean maybe they should break up PvP by mastery ranks, but in reality how useful would that be. How hard is it make a fresh account? I guess the best thing for newer players to take away from what I say is, please don't rush into PvP unprepared and expect to do great.... 

 

2) I'm really done comparing Bungie games with warframe.... like I said before you can go and cherry pick and find similarities in every game made since the early shooters in the 80's and claim that they copied some aspect about them. They're different games, leave it at that.

 

3) Isn't that what I've been saying for multiple posts now? "Yea sure, you're allowed to have whatever opinion that you want. I just found offense in the way you worded what you were saying" - "Yes you can have your own opinion, but I personally find it "pessimistic" and negative, and I would like to see less of that on the forum and I don't mind speaking out against it" lol

 

4) That is true, but if the community decide to stand up and say "hey check this idea out, we think it would help" you have a better chance of it happening instead of just staying quiet and hoping for change. For PvP and public areas I think it is practical, but for most Tower runs as long as the host has a decent connection I don't see much lag or problems. 

[Genji]

Soo back to the Dedicated servers :D

 

I hope this is seriously considered when player hubs come about. Dedicated servers will make performance in PVP a a lot smoother, no tactically slow connections, no disruption with host migrations. 

 

I'm really done with the Infiltrator - headless bug, due to sorry connections.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Ok I understand why you are bringing up Destiny, as many people have argued that they are quite similar and I would agree with you.  However, bringing up Borderlands discredits your argument.  Borderlands is nothing like Warframe.  Borderlands is basically a first-person Diablo, while Warframe is a Space ninja RPG/MMO.  They are nothing at all alike.  Destiny and Borderlands are quite similar yes but that doesn't mean that it is similar to Warframe.  

 

It's also quite ignorant for you to take a post like this and derail it so far from the original purpose.  The purpose of this post was to bring up the issue of balancing with PVP and how dedicated servers could fix the problem.  This was not a post meant to talk about how similar or dissimilar Warframe and Destiny are.  What you are doing is detracting from the issue at hand.  The balancing issues with PVP in Warframe are a problem and one that should be fixed as soon as possible.  You may agree with us that dedicated servers would solve the issue but its hard to tell that when you keep getting off topic.

1) Couldn't care less about Borderlands. I want everyone to focus on Destiny and Bungie's decisions.

2) I brought up Destiny and Bungie because the mechanics present heavily relate to Warframe.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

1) OMG really, I have said from the very beginning that I do not recommend beginning players try to rush into PvP, I would never recommend a player rush into PvP even on a FPS, at least play the story for a bit and understand the controls and mechanics of the game before you jump in and get your @$$ kicked by the people that's been playing since day one.. That point never changed. Having a catalyst and forma is not 100 % necessary, but as part of planning to go in it helps very much because of the nature of how mod space works and how mods unlock in PvP, don't try to twist that. As far as talking about the MK-1 weapons, I said "would I ever suggest a person that just started the game to run into PvP with a MK-1 weapon? No, those weapons are meant for beginning players to level and learn the game with, and play through the first couple planets," it doesn't mean that you can't do it, it's just not practical. With the MK-1 variants aside, you can pretty much use any weapon with skill and planning and be able to contribute to a team in PvP. You may not get as many kills as the guy who has fully prepared and readied his equipment specifically for PvP, but that is a part of playing the game, and in my opinion it should be the reward for those that have put the time and effort to polarize a couple slots and arrange their mods properly. You and a lot of people like to say "it's not fair to the new players," and to be honest, I'm ok with that. That may sound harsh, but one of the biggest mistakes made by developers is when they do things that spit in the eye of the people who have been playing the game from the beginning. If your purpose is to get involved in PvP, really how hard is it to get the things in  place? Get a frame you like, work your way and run through the planets to unlock all the sectors, while you're doing that you should level a few weapons, maybe another frame along the way, play a cpl invasions for a catalyst, reactor, or forma; next thing you know it boom you're around mastery 4 or 5 anyway, and you have the basic equipment changes that make PvP much better than going in with stock slot layouts. Most of this can be done in a week, even quicker if you are playing with friends or with a clan or alliance. Another thing to look at is the mods themselves. Is a player that's been playing for a week by themselves going to have access to full serrations, vitality, redirection...etc., etc. Nope and you know what, that's fair also, but that still doesn't mean that if they only go in with a rank 5 serration they are going to be completely nerfed for damage because of the system in place. In fact if polarized correctly using a lower rank serration can actually be a bit of advantage in the early game of a sector because it requires less level to unlock (oh wait, there's some of that balance that people say doesn't exist). Balance comes in time, with the help of knowledge, strategy, and good teamwork. No matter what game you play, a teams the prepares and studies the game, will almost alway win against unprepared opponents. I mean maybe they should break up PvP by mastery ranks, but in reality how useful would that be. How hard is it make a fresh account? I guess the best thing for newer players to take away from what I say is, please don't rush into PvP unprepared and expect to do great.... 

 

2) I'm really done comparing Bungie games with warframe.... like I said before you can go and cherry pick and find similarities in every game made since the early shooters in the 80's and claim that they copied some aspect about them. They're different games, leave it at that.

 

3) Isn't that what I've been saying for multiple posts now? "Yea sure, you're allowed to have whatever opinion that you want. I just found offense in the way you worded what you were saying" - "Yes you can have your own opinion, but I personally find it "pessimistic" and negative, and I would like to see less of that on the forum and I don't mind speaking out against it" lol

 

4) That is true, but if the community decide to stand up and say "hey check this idea out, we think it would help" you have a better chance of it happening instead of just staying quiet and hoping for change. For PvP and public areas I think it is practical, but for most Tower runs as long as the host has a decent connection I don't see much lag or problems.

1) My friend, I've met plenty of smart starting players. Heck, they knew more stuff than I did. One guy even took the MK1 Braton into a Tower four and did well. He helped the team with his Trinity. If even argue that he was the one who supported us.

However, we both know that he would get stomped in PvP. Not because he is not skilled enough, but because he doesn't have the equipement to do it. That unfortunate truth conflicts with each and every good PvP principle. Weapons in Warframe are specifically designed to one-up each other. The Karak is a straight upgrade to the Braton. The Braton Prime is a straight upgrade from that.

My friend, that kind of balancing goes against your entire argument. You can't argue with numbers. There is no way to balance Warframe without Destiny's averaging system. If you want good PvP gameplay, you're going to have to understand that.

Problem is, I hate the averaging system and so would 99% of the Warframe community.

2) I'm focusing on Destiny now. The reason I do is because of that averaging system. Destiny balances similarly to Warframe. Tiered weapons and items.

3) So let's stop talking about it...

4) I say Tower runs because of the chance for disconnects and the like. That's a big deal once you've gone 30 minutes in a T4 survival.

[RSITH]

Honestly I think Dark is the only fair PVP.

[HiTekRedNek]

1) Couldn't care less about Borderlands. I want everyone to focus on Destiny and Bungie's decisions.

2) I brought up Destiny and Bungie because the mechanics present heavily relate to Warframe.

Umm...... the post was orginally based on the idea of Dedicated Servers helping us to get a more fair PvP environment, which whether you like it or not, it may be coming since DE just released the news that they have partnered with Perfect World ( I would assume this is their way of acquiring a base of dedicated servers without having to invest in their own, and make one from scratch), am I a little worried yes, but I can understand the reasoning behind it, and I have seen games both do better and worse under the PW umbrella. I am hopeful though that they leave DE to themselves and just rake in their share of the profits. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Cool

[polkunus]

I don't know how this argument led to if "Destiny is similar to warframe and similar to borderlands", but they all are similar, but the degree to how similar they are is subjective thus making it each to his/her own. However, all of those games share many similar elements, but still being pretty different.

 

Anyway, I really hope dedicated servers for pvp are a thing on DE's list.

Edited October 19, 2014 by polkunus

[HiTekRedNek]

I don't know how this argument led to if "Destiny is similar to warframe and similar to borderlands", but they all are similar, but the degree to how similar they are is subjective thus making it each to his/her own. However, all of those games share many similar elements, but still being pretty different.

 

Anyway, I really hope dedicated servers for pvp are a thing on DE's list.

Yea man, I got derailed there for a little while, but I would really like to get more people involved, and let people understand the advantages to be had, and the problems dedicated servers could solve.

[DurganKael]

Definitely need dedicated servers. I didn't realize how bad it could get until I spent a lot of time exclusively on rails this weekend. Even if no one's playing dirty, all it takes is one A****** on a Playskool internet connection getting picked to host.

[HiTekRedNek]

Yep, it would improve the fairness and overall quality of the dark sector pvp substantially.