Some Suggested Changes To Pistol/rifle/shotgun Mods

[PaperAlien]

Am I the only one who thinks that some of the pistol mods (and pistols themselves, sometimes) are a bit over the top, especially compared to rifle mods? Most notably, Hornet Strike, 20% extra damage per level up to 220%? I don't think I'd mind spy missions where I'd have to put away my Strun and take out the Bronco which would be doing ~300 base damage. I think the cause for this disparity in mod strengths comes from the assumption that pistols have weaker innate firepower, so with full mods they would be similar to a fully modded primary weapon. The problem is that some of these pistols simply aren't that weak.

 

Viper has a higher base burst DPS than Braton, and the quick reload largely compensates for the smaller clip size, so that the Viper isn't that much weaker than the Braton. Then you add damage mods, and the Viper gets 220% from Hornet Strike, while the Braton only gets 165% from Serration, and you get a sidearm that's more potent than the primary weapon (yes, I am aware that it is less accurate, but I've calculated it has about 200, or 40% extra DPS over the Braton with full Serration). In another unrelated issue, shotgun damage mod only goes to 90%, and all elemental/AP mods go to 90%. Base damage is too low, elemental is too high.

 

Some suggestions for tweaking these mods:

-Nerfing Hornet strike, or buffing Serration, or both.

-Giving rifle AP mod 90% maximum rather than 60%. Rifles are the family that contain weapons such as the Snipetron, Latron and Gorgon, which would all make sense to have good armour-piercing.

-Give Point Blank 5 extra levels like the other damage mods.

-Change shotgun AP mod to 60% or 30% instead of 90%, pellets are meant to be bad against penetrating armour, although the mod's name Flechette may provide an adequate explanation for the high AP, so maybe don't change it.

-If the above nerf to Flechette is not viable, nerf shotguns in some way (damage/implement falloff), but in a way that leaves shotguns with level 10 Point Blank significantly stronger than an original shotgun with lvl 5 Point Blank. No point in giving Point Blank extra levels if it becomes neccesary to fully level it to achieve the same damage as pre-change.

 

These are just my suggestions, and I don't really have the longest time played in this game, so if you'd like to point out some oversights I made or misunderstandings, feel free to do so.

Edited April 21, 2013 by PaperAlien

[OrtuOcelot]

You do realize that the damage added is not multiplicative but rather additive, right? A Viper with 220% damage "Hornet Strike" would bring it up to 3-4 more damage, so, most likely rounded so 20. Same with Braton, 165% from "Serration" would only add 3 more damage to it's base. With the math you can see it's not all that great or bad, really, it's a decent balance. Which brings your Bronco to 128 base damage, not 300. Now you add elemental and crit mods then that's where more damage comes from and adds to the base damage as well. AP is considered an extra elemental, I don't know the formula for that one, but you're asking for more power on it than there already is. As for "Point Blank", same formula as the other damage mods. All in all, though, the Hek is by far the most deadly of the shotguns, it's tight cone spread makes it even more deadly. I don't have my mods for it maxed but it can still one shot almost anything with a a headshot, well anything without shields (no electric dmg mods on it). Heavies take maybe 3 shots once their shields are doe with. I think for now the mentioned mods are good and at a balance.

Edited April 21, 2013 by OrtuOcelot

[PaperAlien]

Um, I don't think it matters if it's additive or multiplicative when we're only talking about damage bonus from one source. Can you explain how you calculated 128 with a Bronco?

 

Also, I thought the Normal damage mods were multiplicative anyway?

Edited April 21, 2013 by PaperAlien

[OrtuOcelot]

No, they're additive so as to not unblanace the damage players can put out, imagine a Hek, base being 147 + 90% would have it at 265 (give or take), then the elemental mods would have their values stacked, making for one OP weapon that could take out almost anything in one shot regardless of distance (not TOO far obviously) and making bosses look like regular grunts, given that everyone would have their own set ups and then any weapons could be super powerful

Basically for the Bronco its base damage is 105 x .220 = 23.1. And since the values are rounded, it'd be 23. 105 + 23 = 128.

Edited April 21, 2013 by OrtuOcelot

[Korbaan]

OrtuOcelot, that is absolutely not how the game works.  I had a 100% Hornet Strike mod at one point.  I slapped it on a Bolto, which does 25 damage base, with no other mods.  It did exactly 50 damage to a Grineer Lancer on a body shot.  So +100% damage meant exactly +100% damage.  The mods are very powerful.  This is why the Hek really is insanely OP.  I can one shot most non-Ancient enemies and I haven't even found the multishot mod for shotguns yet.  In fact, I one shot most monsters under level 35 with single rounds from the Gorgon because I do have multishot for rifles and all the damage increasing mods relatively well upgraded.

 

I think the problem is you're making a math error.  You're calculating a 22% damage increase for the Bronco, not a 220% damage increase.  

[Ksdsdf]

It's the additive on top of the base damage.

Base damage + (Base damage x % increase)

Take snipetron:

100 base damage

165% damage increase (max serration mod)

 

100 + (100 x 165%) = 100 + (165) = 265.

 

1 clip of magazine is 265 x 4 = 1060

 

Hek

 

147 base damage

90% damage increase (max mod)

 

147 + (147 x 90%) = 147 + (132.3) = 279.3 ~ 279

 

1 clip of magazine is 279 x 4 = 1116

 

Gorgon

25 base damage

165% damage increase (max serration mod)

 

25 + (25 x 165%) =  25 + (41.25) = 66.25 ~ 66

 

1 clip of magazine is 66 x 90 = 5940

 

Lex

 

70 base damage

220% damage increase (max hornet strike mod)

 

70 + (70 x 220%) = 70 + (154) = 224.

 

1 clip of magazine is 224 x 6 = 1344

Twin viper:

 

16 base damage

220% damage increase (max hornet strike mod)

 

16 + (16 x 220%) = 16 + 35.2 = 51.2 ~ 51

 

1 clip of magazine is 51 x 28 = 1428

[SorainRavenshaw]

don't nurf the pistol and shotgun mods, make the rifle mods competitive with them.
It's always better to make less attractive options more attractive then to make already popular things as weak as unpopular things. (within sane limits of course)

[Asla]

It's not the topic but i would put my mind into it.

What about melee mods?

I found them really weak for players like me who doesnt like to play with heavy melee weapon charge mod.

I mean, i am more a dual/single sword player spamming left button, that's the way I enjoy the game but it's ineffective on high level planet.

 

Pressure point maxed? 42% damage when serration and hornet strike bring it to 160+

Elemental mods on melee? 5% (electric, what a joke) to 10% when rifle/shotgun goes for +15% per level

Critcal strike chance 30% maxed when rifle can go for 150% maxed

ect.

Only decent mod are finally charge damage and speed...

 

Yeah i know upping melee mod would make fragor/scindo/gram player more op with their charge but i don't really care, think about player who just want decent damage with their aa too =)

 

What do you thinK?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Asla

[Korbaan]

If they only buff Pressure Point, it won't do anything for Fragor/Scindo etc.'s charge attack, melee attack damage is just for the fast melee attack.  So that's an option.  The melee mod you want is Molten Impact, by the way, 15% per level fire damage.  Fire damage is the most useful one anyway because the #1 target of melee attacks are the Infested, who take double damage from fire.  Have you tried Fury?  Straight up 10% per level increase in attack speed.  With max Fury, max fire damage, max armor piercing damage (rare mod, also 15% per level for melee, tied with shotguns for the best), max ice damage, etc., the basic attack from Dual Ethers, which ignore armor and does triple damage to Infested, just shreds enemies.  Like, 3 attacks a second for 200+ damage an attack, in an AoE.  I'm a whirlwind of destruction who leaves only flaming body parts in my wake.  Ancients don't even get to attack me because I'm attacking so fast with the Dual Ethers I'm permanently stunlocking them.  Insane melee weapons with the right mods, no charging necessary.  I leave my Fragor at home now.

[Asla]

If they only buff Pressure Point, it won't do anything for Fragor/Scindo etc.'s charge attack, melee attack damage is just for the fast melee attack. So that's an option. The melee mod you want is Molten Impact, by the way, 15% per level fire damage. Fire damage is the most useful one anyway because the #1 target of melee attacks are the Infested, who take double damage from fire. Have you tried Fury? Straight up 10% per level increase in attack speed. With max Fury, max fire damage, max armor piercing damage (rare mod, also 15% per level for melee, tied with shotguns for the best), max ice damage, etc., the basic attack from Dual Ethers, which ignore armor and does triple damage to Infested, just shreds enemies. Like, 3 attacks a second for 200+ damage an attack, in an AoE. I'm a whirlwind of destruction who leaves only flaming body parts in my wake. Ancients don't even get to attack me because I'm attacking so fast with the Dual Ethers I'm permanently stunlocking them. Insane melee weapons with the right mods, no charging necessary. I leave my Fragor at home now.

Thanks for your answer, i didn't tried those weapons. I am crafting it right now! I was on my dual frozen/dual heat sword until now and i found the damage pretty weak. I have fury maxed ofc. Fire@ only 45% atm.

Duel ether ignore armor and i think it's a good point. But in my opinion, melee weapon are not effective as they should be compaired to high tier guns. And melee is only optionnal and situationnal (against infested as u mentionned for exemple) while it should be a viable option against all factions/enemies at high level.

Even heavy modded can you take down a 50+ ancient as fast as a heavy modded hek can do it (4/5 shots in the leg)? I guess no and that's the issue for me.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Asla

[Korbaan]

I can probably kill the Ancient faster using a Hek, yes, but...I can't lock down 3 Ancients at the same time without taking any damage or be disrupted (which is way worse than just being beat on a few times).  With max charge damage plus max charge speed the Dual Ethers charge attack about 1.5 times a second, which makes them shred Ancients quite effectively.  Not as fast as a Hek, but...you don't ever have to reload melee weapons, either, and the Hek doesn't reload very fast.

 

If you think about it, all weapons have a niche.  The Hek isn't as useful vs. a lot of weaker enemies as say, the Gorgon, because you can kill many, many more weak enemies before having to reload a Gorgon.  Really a Gorgon's probably better for fighting Ancients too.  If you aim for the right weakspot, you can kill 2-3 Ancients with a single Gorgon clip, faster than you can fire 12-15 Hek rounds with the reload speed factored in.  Of course over the course of a long mission the Gorgon will have ammunition problems, and the Hek won't, and on targets other than Ancients, it's going to take a bit longer to ramp up to that firing speed, whereas the Hek will instantly take it out.  Weapons being situational isn't bad design.  If anything it's good design and makes our choices more interesting.  

 

Better yet, why would you compare melee weapons to guns, when they're not competitive but complimentary?  If I'm fighting an Infested horde I'll lay into the little guys with my Dual Ethers and save my Hek shots for the Ancients.  If I waste my few Hek shots in a clip overkilling Chargers, I'm left high and dry for the Ancients, spending precious seconds reloading instead of killing.

[Davoodoo]

I havent yet maxed mods for my shotgun but even with hek with rank 4 point blank maxed flechette rank 4 hells chamber rank 4 tactical pump hyena dies under 20 seconds and doesnt regen even 10% of shields during reloads. Even scindo with maxed charge dmg does only 500 dmg while paris can do over 1k crit headshots with maxed mods much faster but without aoe. Melee lacks multishot, cant headshot reliably, have terrible mods atm, in short its nerfed to ground.