Stuff I've Learned From Studying Stances 1: We Need More Agency In Combos

[Neocyberman]

I've spent some time playing around the the three nikana stances and have come to a number of discoveries about the problems with melee and stances in general and have a few proposed solutions. Here is one of them.

 

I really want to see discussion on this, not just my ideas but the deficiencies of the current iteration of the melee system.

 

Issue 1: Lack of a level of agency in input during combos/There seems to be a cumbersome queue mechanic at play with inputs/Combos in general are unwieldy

 

So one of the things that stuck out to me is that when you input commands those seem to go into a queue. That queue executes based on the inputs you give it in the order you give it until the games logic sees that it is the end of a combo. So say you have a combo that goes three hits. If you rapidly press E four times you get that three hit combo and your fourth hit doesnt go anywhere because the combo terminated. Seems like an alight system but it has hitches. A pro in this case is that if you remember the input string you can put it in faster than you can swing your blade. But if you for whatever reason have to cancel the combo or realize that you input something wrong you cant cancel if there are still things in the queue.

 

This is problematic mainly because combos are long generally. And plenty of things can happen in the time it takes for a combo to finish, like a slam, or eximus move. Now this would be fine if combos where higher reward and enemies had opening you could exploit and punish reliably. But hitstun mechanics are not regular and consistent. Because of this taking the effort and getting in close is likely just to get you shot. When you come in close you sacrifice safety and get little to nothing in return. You loose control of the fight because you do not get a hitsun on every hit.

 

Solution 1: Implement cancels or similar

 

To put it as plainly as possible: When you do a combo you commit to it until it ends and enemies have the ability to react and knock you over. The player is not given the tools necessary to react to the enemy response. This makes combos not worth while unless they come out quick and hard. A quick dodge, a roll cancel, something or anything that allows us to easily cancel out of combos. The ability to break engagement would be wonderful.

 

Solution 2: Make hitstuns regular

 

Melee combos have low effectiveness because they are all risk, no reward. You get in close and risk being hit, you start a combo and risk getting CC'd because there is nothing to get you out of a combo and once your hit lands you risk that the combo you chose did enough damage to stop the enemy entirely. But quite often the reward does not fit the risk you put in and you get squashed. Especially against grineer. Regular hitsun on enemies when they are not in their own attacking phase would greatly improve the viability of melee attacking.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Neocyberman

[castem]

+1 to OP; I definitely agree.

 

You could come to your solutions via other methods too - for example, by looking at fighting games.  I can see dash-canceling and jump-canceling being a part of Warframe's melee combat, and hitstun is definitely something that needs looked into.  (AFAIK, in Warframe there isn't really something like hitstun-decay, which is why getting CC'd / getting put into hitstun is often a death sentence - you can be quite easily stunlocked to death.  On the flip side to that, hitstun inflicted by players seems too inconsistent to use on a regular basis.)

Edited October 22, 2014 by castem

[Shreiko]

Also it would be nice if the mod menu UI stated the buffs each stance gives to its respective weapon type when equipped. An example is the crimson dervish damage buff. A lot of stances have different buffs and debuffs that go unnoticed. Having information like this displayed prominently would definitely influence weapon builds.

[legendarysidekicksteve]

Also it would be nice if the mod menu UI stated the buffs each stance gives to its respective weapon type when equipped. An example is the crimson dervish damage buff. A lot of stances have different buffs and debuffs that go unnoticed. Having information like this displayed prominently would definitely influence weapon builds.

 

If you want to know about the specific bonus or traits an attack or comb, you can look at the wiki for a breakdown.

[Shreiko]

If you want to know about the specific bonus or traits an attack or comb, you can look at the wiki for a breakdown.

     This would be nice, but stances keep being added in and at some point I wont be able to keep track, having the information right there without having to use an external source would be good QoL(quality of life) change. As far as QoL changes go, it would be nice if I didn't have to go to the wiki to find out important facts about gameplay. As of now other instances of where wiki is more informative than the game and shouldn't be elude me, but I know there are several others.

[-FrostByte-]

i'd like to cancle my attacks

[Neocyberman]

+1 to OP; I definitely agree.

 

You could come to your solutions via other methods too - for example, by looking at fighting games.  I can see dash-canceling and jump-canceling being a part of Warframe's melee combat, and hitstun is definitely something that needs looked into.  (AFAIK, in Warframe there isn't really something like hitstun-decay, which is why getting CC'd / getting put into hitstun is often a death sentence - you can be quite easily stunlocked to death.  On the flip side to that, hitstun inflicted by players seems too inconsistent to use on a regular basis.)

 

What was in my mind at the time was a game like Devil May Cry, which has a melee combat system built around really good feeling combos which are extended by thinks like player choice instead of coming to an abrupt end. In that game combos are divided into even smaller pieces some actions being single button presses. On top of which even those smaller combo strings can be cancelled out of. 

 

Warframe doesn't seem to benefit from the design choices that would go along with its long drawn out combos or even that of a game with more free form combos. Irregular hitstun means you can be interrupted more than your attacks interrupt enemies. The inability cancel combos means  a lack of safety granted to the player for recognizing threats and reacting.

 

The length of combos feeds into this as well. Even if you recognize a threat before the button presses are in the animation of your last attack cant be cancelled either.

 

I don't think the existing combo system fits the games speed and enemy design. Stances and enemies need to change behaviour because put plainly this iteration of melee is clunky because of it. The same complaints I see concerning the high risk of coming in close from the old days still fit.

[Hamstertron]

... a game like Devil May Cry, which has a melee combat system built around really good feeling combos ...

 

I was just thinking that, when it comes to combos, I really enjoyed God Hand on the PS2 (which is very similar to DMC although is old-school "Nintendo hard").

I loved unlocking moves and then assembling them into combos which had high DPS or stunlocked or were designed to take down a particular boss.

 

I feel like the stances should reflect moves learned from opponents (i.e. they drop stances for the melee moves they use), and your mastery rank should determine the length of your combo chain. Then all you need to do is drop stance mods into a sequence and there you have it - your own combo. If DE wanted to sell more Forma you could allo each combo slot to be polarised to reduce the stamina/channelling power of a move.

[Neocyberman]

I thought this would get more attention given that another patch has come along and stances/melee/combos have remained the same as they ever were.

 

Its beginning to wear on me how little can be done with melee weapons because the player lacks so much control.