Don't Punish Me Because I Didn't Know!

[TheAceOfSkulls]

While I know the current system for picking up warframes is made for the sake of a curve in gameplay, the fact that you have to permanently select your playstyle without any real knowledge of what that means at the beginning of the game is kinda punishing for people that make the wrong decision.

Perhaps allowing players to switch between the starter frames until they reach a certain level would help make certain that a bad first decision doesn't cause enough frustration to leave.

*EDIT*

To clarify a couple of things
-I picked Excalibur because the game urged me to. I don't mind it at all, but another friend of mine picked a support role and doesn't play without a group he can physically talk to because of it.
-Yes, you can create another account, but that's inconvenient. I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to a respec system as well or a restart for the account in question (complete with standard security procedures for that)
-Yes, you can build another one, but doing that without cash takes awhile. If you're stuck with a frame you hate, you probably won't spend the time. Remember that not everyone wants to invest hours or money in a game they're trying out because it's free.

-There seems to be a lot of "research it!" mentality to this game. I've never once researched a game before I jumped head first into, save for gameboy color games that I opened up on the ride back home when I was kid, and that was only because I couldn't plug them in right away. I doubt many other people do intense research on a wiki when they're expecting to be eased into a game for the first couple of minutes.

Edited April 21, 2013 by TheAceOfSkulls

[rhoenix]

Why do you feel punished?

 

A friend of mine picked Loki on accident when he made his account, and ended up playing it exclusively even though he has other frames now.

[russ555]

Agreed. When I chose my first frame I assumed I could change after.

[husnielyas]

agree too.

[Dusklite]

I'm not getting the "permanently" part here.

 

Either you build a new warframe if you can stick to your hated starter frame long enough and sell it after...

... or you directly make a new account.

 

Even if you already spent money on that account you have the option to just go and buy another frame. I'm more amazed we get to choose our first frame instead of getting something easy to handle, but boring and crappy in higher levels. Even the "beginner" frame, Excalibur, works nice in high levels with the right modding. Actually, that's true for every frame I've seen and/or played.

[Haldos]

While I think a more detailed description of each starting Warframe should be included, I would think a new person would have the incentive to do a little independent research as well. With the knowledge available on the wiki (Which is easily found simply by searching Warframe on Google), and tons of videos on websites such as Youtube, you should have plenty of information to make a good first decision and what you'll want to try next.

 

My advice for you? Stick with your decision and you might just learn you like it. It's not like you can't pick a new Warframe down the road and get rid of the old one. If you absolutely cannot accept that, make a new free account and try again.

[Soulfighter]

support role ? what ? are you talking about mag ?

 

the only real support warframe would be trinity and she's freaking awesome at wrecking everything by being basically invulnerable for 30sec lol

[Dasmir]

Yeah the devs should put a direct link to the wiki meanwhile they are in beta like other games thats will really help the newies.

[TheAceOfSkulls]

support role ? what ? are you talking about mag ?

 

the only real support warframe would be trinity and she's freaking awesome at wrecking everything by being basically invulnerable for 30sec lol

 

Pretty certain it's Mag. I say support, but it's really just more squishy, and after a particuarly bad Infested run where two random players rushed and left us with a Toxic to take care of, random matches kinda lost their appeal. He's been wanting to pick up Rhino based on the weapons and plays he's seen, but he doesn't want to drop cash and it doesn't take long on chat to realize how long it takes to make one of those.

[Soulfighter]

Pretty certain it's Mag. I say support, but it's really just more squishy, and after a particuarly bad Infested run where two random players rushed and left us with a Toxic to take care of, random matches kinda lost their appeal. He's been wanting to pick up Rhino based on the weapons and plays he's seen, but he doesn't want to drop cash and it doesn't take long on chat to realize how long it takes to make one of those.

 

mag has average armor and has the same amount of shield as tanks (a bit less health than average though)

so yeah, mag isn't especially squishy and isn't really a support, she wrecks everything with her ult.

 

Rhino is probably better but he's better than most warframe anyway

[Dasmir]

support role ? what ? are you talking about mag ?

 

the only real support warframe would be trinity and she's freaking awesome at wrecking everything by being basically invulnerable for 30sec lol

 

Support =/= Someone who only heal...

[TheAceOfSkulls]

mag has average armor and has the same amount of shield as tanks (a bit less health than average though)

so yeah, mag isn't especially squishy and isn't really a support, she wrecks everything with her ult.

 

Rhino is probably better but he's better than most warframe anyway

Really don't have much to go off of other than his word, as I've only got Excalibur myself. I guess his calling it support is based off of his observations, as we both noticed that Ex's tended to charge first, expecially because of their skills, and Mags tended to pick off enemies from behind. Plus I don't think he's got his ult yet.

 

(Another note: he operates off of Damage/Support/Tank trinity logic for most games, which might have inspired more thoughts of it being support, especially at lower levels)

[Raiithe]

Why not allow the beginner frames to all be available to the player. That way even if the player decides that they made the wrong choice then they will have another frame to fall back on. Rather than fork out cash or levelup and grind till they can build a new frame.

 

I agree that additional information should be given when you make your choice of frame or maybe some kind of trial period implemented.

[TheAceOfSkulls]

Why not allow the beginner frames to all be available to the player. That way even if the player decides that they made the wrong choice then they will have another frame to fall back on. Rather than fork out cash or levelup and grind till they can build a new frame.

 

I agree that additional information should be given when you make your choice of frame or maybe some kind of trial period implemented.

I actually chewed this over for awhile and with the current system it seems a little unfair to people that have played longer, both for people grinding for frame parts as well as for people who bought extra slots for their frames. Sure the devs could toss a little platinum towards players who were on before they updated, but it feels like it would cause a bit of a stir.

 

I'd be for it, but then again I haven't been on too long. It's one of those horrible issues that comes with balancing a problem that most players have already had to work around, making the easy fix the most volatile.

[rhoenix]

Really don't have much to go off of other than his word, as I've only got Excalibur myself. I guess his calling it support is based off of his observations, as we both noticed that Ex's tended to charge first, expecially because of their skills, and Mags tended to pick off enemies from behind. Plus I don't think he's got his ult yet.

 

(Another note: he operates off of Damage/Support/Tank trinity logic for most games, which might have inspired more thoughts of it being support, especially at lower levels)

 

I can see that, but consider that damage from guns and melee weapons is frequently much higher than that which can be done through abilities.  The main use for abilities is accomplishing things that are difficult to do with guns & swords alone.

 

With this in mind, while the Excalibur's Slash Dash is useful, the Mag's abilities are all indirect, but great for fire support.

 

Pull yanks enemies off balance, and can remove a Shield Grineer's shield.  Bullet Attractor doesn't seem all that great by itself, until you couple it with an Excalibur's Radial Javelin, which will make all 12 of the 1k damage-causing javelins to hit the same target.

 

And Crush... Crush is used when everything within 30 meters of the Mag needs to die.  Now.

 

Of all the frames, I keep coming back to the Mag and Ash the most so far - but I do not yet have the Loki, Volt, Trinity, Saryn, Nyx, or Banshee frames.  This is because the Mag's abilities are great for all around utility in firefights. If there's an Excalibur in the party, a boss is going to be taking 12k damage at some point - and they're just going to have to like it, since it won't just happen once.

[TheAceOfSkulls]

I can see that, but consider that damage from guns and melee weapons is frequently much higher than that which can be done through abilities.  The main use for abilities is accomplishing things that are difficult to do with guns & swords alone.

 

With this in mind, while the Excalibur's Slash Dash is useful, the Mag's abilities are all indirect, but great for fire support.

 

Pull yanks enemies off balance, and can remove a Shield Grineer's shield.  Bullet Attractor doesn't seem all that great by itself, until you couple it with an Excalibur's Radial Javelin, which will make all 12 of the 1k damage-causing javelins to hit the same target.

 

And Crush... Crush is used when everything within 30 meters of the Mag needs to die.  Now.

 

Of all the frames, I keep coming back to the Mag and Ash the most so far - but I do not yet have the Loki, Volt, Trinity, Saryn, Nyx, or Banshee frames.  This is because the Mag's abilities are great for all around utility in firefights. If there's an Excalibur in the party, a boss is going to be taking 12k damage at some point - and they're just going to have to like it, since it won't just happen once.

He's developed a fondness for pull, as he does with every game that has it, and I guess his big problem is his love of the shotgun, which early on favors Excalibur. Sure, there's the fun pull, shotgun face, but the Ex gets to things quicker and can also knock down.

 

So in short: Excalibur Rushers - Bane of early game Mag.

 

As for my own experience, I've been trying to get another frame to test out, but I only seem to pick up blueprints when I'm not looking for them (I don't even know how the Ash chassis appeared in my inventory. Seriously, is there like a Reverse Stalker that gives you presents when you're not looking?)

[Gaiters]

If they make it that you start with a predetermined frame then this wouldn't be an issue. The choice is about making things interesting, instead of shackling you it's giving you a bit of free reign. As such it is not a punishment and should never been seen as such.

I don't agree that you should have the choice twice, if you want another frame go get it, this game is all about expanding the number of warframes you can play.

Edited April 22, 2013 by ZEDD

[rhoenix]

He's developed a fondness for pull, as he does with every game that has it, and I guess his big problem is his love of the shotgun, which early on favors Excalibur. Sure, there's the fun pull, shotgun face, but the Ex gets to things quicker and can also knock down.

 

So in short: Excalibur Rushers - Bane of early game Mag.

 

As for my own experience, I've been trying to get another frame to test out, but I only seem to pick up blueprints when I'm not looking for them (I don't even know how the Ash chassis appeared in my inventory. Seriously, is there like a Reverse Stalker that gives you presents when you're not looking?)

 

Amusingly enough, you can get a blueprint as a daily login reward.  It's how I got my Ash helmet schematic, and was mainly what convinced me to start farming for the rest.

 

With the Mag, I've found that long-range tactics work best, as the Mag typically needs to have good battlefield awareness to mess with it properly, much like the Loki would, I expect.  See if you can convince him to move to a longer-range gun and stay back a bit in fights.  Let you as the Excalibur be the one to loudly go introduce yourself to enemies, while the Mag thins their ranks and ruins their entire lives from afar.  You can do the same thing with a Mag when you're closer, but you have to have great situational awareness for it.

 

And as to the idea of "making mistakes" when choosing your new warframe, keep in mind that all of them are meant to feel different from one another, and even play differently due to ability bias on ideal range.  With this in mind, all of them can surprise you in play versus what you can read about them on the wiki.

[TheAceOfSkulls]

Amusingly enough, you can get a blueprint as a daily login reward.  It's how I got my Ash helmet schematic, and was mainly what convinced me to start farming for the rest.

 

With the Mag, I've found that long-range tactics work best, as the Mag typically needs to have good battlefield awareness to mess with it properly, much like the Loki would, I expect.  See if you can convince him to move to a longer-range gun and stay back a bit in fights.  Let you as the Excalibur be the one to loudly go introduce yourself to enemies, while the Mag thins their ranks and ruins their entire lives from afar.  You can do the same thing with a Mag when you're closer, but you have to have great situational awareness for it.

 

And as to the idea of "making mistakes" when choosing your new warframe, keep in mind that all of them are meant to feel different from one another, and even play differently due to ability bias on ideal range.  With this in mind, all of them can surprise you in play versus what you can read about them on the wiki.

 

No, my daily log in was suit xp. This literally showed up out of nowhere. Or I somehow missed killing a boss. Wow, starting to feel like a terrible person.

 

Yeah, the problem though that I addressed is that while they all play differently, there's really no demo period for any of them other than Excalibur, and the tutorial's pretty light on him. To use SWTOR for an example, as it too locks your choice after awhile, the initial tutorial period hands you skills for both sorts of advanced classes you'll play. It's meant to sort of demo what you like and what you don't before making the choice, such as asking whether you want your "mage" to be a "battlemage/magic rogue" or a "sorcerer."

 

Thing is, you get another slot in SWTOR just in case you mess up, and can delete any character you want if things don't work out.I guess the problem is more from the fact that the beta here doesn't really help you other than to tell you Ex is simple while Loki is hard (but that doesn't encourage players who like that sort of role to pick it, as it's telling you it's advanced and requires knowledge of the game you really haven't started yet).

[rhoenix]

No, my daily log in was suit xp. This literally showed up out of nowhere. Or I somehow missed killing a boss. Wow, starting to feel like a terrible person.

 

Yeah, the problem though that I addressed is that while they all play differently, there's really no demo period for any of them other than Excalibur, and the tutorial's pretty light on him. To use SWTOR for an example, as it too locks your choice after awhile, the initial tutorial period hands you skills for both sorts of advanced classes you'll play. It's meant to sort of demo what you like and what you don't before making the choice, such as asking whether you want your "mage" to be a "battlemage/magic rogue" or a "sorcerer."

 

Thing is, you get another slot in SWTOR just in case you mess up, and can delete any character you want if things don't work out.I guess the problem is more from the fact that the beta here doesn't really help you other than to tell you Ex is simple while Loki is hard (but that doesn't encourage players who like that sort of role to pick it, as it's telling you it's advanced and requires knowledge of the game you really haven't started yet).

 

Those points, I agree with.  It would help greatly if there was a gameplay video above each choice of warframe, a stat list, or something to help differentiate the different frames for a new player.

[Dancingfirefly]

Those points, I agree with.  It would help greatly if there was a gameplay video above each choice of warframe, a stat list, or something to help differentiate the different frames for a new player.

 

There actually are videos that do that. They're the "Crash Course in Warframe" videos which are done by Mike B.

 

Maybe having a link to each frame's related video in the frame selection would be good? It'd be the most cost/time effective option. His videos are also quite amusing. The only issue about this is, if the frames receive drastic changes, the videos will no longer apply.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Dancingfirefly

[BlueCremeSoda]

Why do you feel punished?

 

A friend of mine picked Loki on accident when he made his account, and ended up playing it exclusively even though he has other frames now.

This is irrelevant as it is not always the case. Allowing players to be better informed through the game itself would be a more apt way to handle this.

 

I think you should be able to "test drive" the options. Give people a frame with all their abilities, let them run through a little shooting range type level and try them out. Select based on your experience. Problem solved. This way it literally can only be your fault if you picked one you liked less than the other two.

 

As far as videos, they don't really give you a feel for a frame at all. They might help give you an idea better than blindly picking or a description, but it still pales in comparison to a test run in one.

Edited April 22, 2013 by BlueCremeSoda

[rhoenix]

Yes, I know of those videos, and they are enjoyable to watch as additional materials for new players to the game.

 

In-game, however, showing a brief video of each ability of each Warframe in action might help.

[OmegaDrago]

It would be cool if they added a tiny bit of backstory to the vids too somehow while they tell you what type of playstyle they are would be an awesome way to add some more lore to the game.