Game Vs Gamer

[Clazzeh]

Now recently I have heard a lot of my friends moaning and complaining about the difficulty added onto the missions now that you lose your loot if you aren't careful, now I understand why they are annoyed but I quite enjoy it myself as I like a game where there is some risk and challenge, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

My question to all you out there is something that came to mind while listening to some of their more extreme opinions of how this will "ruin the game" and "make it too hard" for them. The question being here, what do you think is more important to you, the game being how the developer wants, or the game being how the fans want?

 

For example, I used to be a ps3 gamer myself, and was foolish enough to pick up a copy of dark souls with the pretense, no way is this as hard as it sounds. So I took it home, and I played it and at first I hated it because I didn't know what to do, the game was hard as hek* and I just kept losing over and over.

 

But the thing is I couldn't stop playing, when those losses turn to victories you feel so satisfied you finally won, and when you finally learn all you need to get through an area you feel awesome. The games lack of concrete backgrounds to the locations giving you enough room to imagine while at the same time giving you enough facts to make you think about the places you are in.

 

And in the end a game I hated became one that I will swear by that it is one of the best I have played, and I would have sorely missed out I feel if the developers had decided to make it easier, or make it any way other than how they made it.**

 

 

But this is offset by games that are tailor made for their fans, like call of duty for example or tf2, these games have their fans, they know what their public wants, and they deliver what they want. If you just want more maps and guns, just the simple basics, then that's just as well too.

 

These games aren't trying to deliver you something that you wont recognize, you know what to do, and just by looking at it you can know for sure if you will like it or not just by the box, which to be fair is good too as you get what you want, there is no risk of getting something you didn't want, and if you are into those games you will enjoy what you get.

 

So basically it all boils down to what you prefer, is it when developers make their game more to how they want, regardless of how hard or different it may be from the usual things everyone is familiar with?

 

Or is it when developers focus more on their target audience keeping the game at a set level and sticking to what they know they deliver well rather than trying new ideas that could lead it from its current genre?

 

Please post your opinions and the like ^^

 

*Hek! Get it, like the boss?... Well I thought it was funny dangit!

**Heck I bought the sequel two times O_o

Edited April 23, 2013 by Clazzeh

[Shion963]

This. Dark Souls is how it is because that's the way Fromsoft wants to 'show' us the world.

 

Do you by any chance peruse the NameBro's youtube?

[Katakuna]

DE has shown they're in a nice middle ground.  They'll listen to the community, take some ideas, and make them happy.  It's what they've been praised so much for.

 

However, they still have their vision, what they want to see in their game.  They still have the mind to diplomatically say, "Thanks for suggesting this, but no."

[Clazzeh]

Well I've never heard of NameBro's before, but your summarised my view of dark souls pretty darn quick, its what it wants to be o3o

[Slayblaze]

It's a fine line between giving the players what they think they want, and giving them what they don't know they need.

[Clazzeh]

@Katakuna I agree with you 100% and thats one of the reasons I love this game so much, heck its probably the only free game I've every put so much money into in such a short period of time. The game has its own presentation and style, but still has some consideration for those unfmiliar with it.

[VER1]

I remember seeing a lot of negative votes against one person who suggested removing all gained boss items and everything else from a mission if the player chooses to cut the game short by aborting the mission after killing the boss yet it was done in this patch.

 

Personally it makes total sense to me and is a cheap tactic to abort a mission straight after killing the boss to not jeopardize loot or because the player is too lazy to put in the effort to get to the evacuation point.

[Shion963]

Well I've never heard of NameBro's before, but your summarised my view of dark souls pretty darn quick, its what it wants to be o3o

 

Then hooo boy I recommend checking the great ENB.

 

He does a lot of Dark/Demons Souls videos (best weapon showcase, armour showcase, Best Dex Weapons, challenge/goal-based playthroughs), and some of his vids talk about almost exactly this: game/developer design choices and such.

[Clazzeh]

I may have seen a vid of him showing off a scythe, not sure if its him will get back to you on that

[SomethingCrazy]

I once wondered what it would be like to be a developer and create my own game. I think to myself "what if most people don't agree with my idea and want something different? But I'm the one making it." So whenever I ask developers to change something I keep this in mind because it is their game and maybe that's how they imagined it to be. I wouldn't appreciate it much if everyone was telling me how to make my game their way. 

[SolluxCaptorTA]

Two words and one expletive.

 

Andrew goddamn Hussie.

 

The man listens to his fans about as much a carrot does, and I'm pretty sure if he declared war on a country and asked his fans to help him, it would be razed to the ground within a week.

 

Assuming DE can truly pull a Huss on this, I forward the motion they stop listening to anything we say except reporting glitches.

[WhiteCr0w]

DE has shown they're in a nice middle ground.  They'll listen to the community, take some ideas, and make them happy.  It's what they've been praised so much for.

 

However, they still have their vision, what they want to see in their game.  They still have the mind to diplomatically say, "Thanks for suggesting this, but no."

 

About sums up my own opinion. They seem to operate right within the "Goldilocks Zone" of implementing suggestions and building their own dream Universe. I absolutely love it and hope it remains that way for as long as possible haha. Also, great post and good question OP.

[Varil]

Two words and one expletive.

 

Andrew goddamn Hussie.

 

The man listens to his fans about as much a carrot does, and I'm pretty sure if he declared war on a country and asked his fans to help him, it would be razed to the ground within a week.

 

Assuming DE can truly pull a Huss on this, I forward the motion they stop listening to anything we say except reporting glitches.

 

Hussssssiiiiiiiie! Even here he haunts me! :( Stupid hiatus.

 

True, Homestuck does as Homestuck does and makes you like it.

[DataShade]

DE has shown they're in a nice middle ground.  They'll listen to the community, take some ideas, and make them happy.  It's what they've been praised so much for.

 

However, they still have their vision, what they want to see in their game.  They still have the mind to diplomatically say, "Thanks for suggesting this, but no."

 

 

This.  I don't think it's unreasonable to keep the drops you collect when you disconnect, and I've seen several very reasonable complaints about how - for Endless Defense missions, specifically - this shifts the Risk:Reward ratio too far to the "risk" side, and how it might be rebalanced a bit.  If DE thinks the old risk:reward ratio for Endless Defense was too much in favor of undeserved rewards, they may be inaccurately sampling the mood of the community.

[SolluxCaptorTA]

On this issue, Data, I believe that rewards already gotten should be kept on failure but not on disconnect. It's too easy to abort/artificially disconnect from the game an would lead to the old kill boss leave game asshattery. I do understand sometimes people have to disconnect for reasons they can't help, but relative to the old farmers, I don't think it's too large a number. 

[Clazzeh]

@solluxcaptorTA Then you could just let yourself die and click forfeit, same problem.
 I personally think if they put in an easy mode for the ones complainingit may be good, that would give you much less in terms of rewards but enable you to keep your stuff it would be good for a few people, again I like the increased risk but hearing people go on and on about all the things they lost because they clicked to battle instead of claim and exit is really irritating ><

But then I would be annoyed by people who woould probably exploit the hell out of it so yeah ^^;

Edited April 23, 2013 by Clazzeh

[MoobsUK]

"These games aren't trying to deliver you something that you wont recognize, you know what to do, and just by looking at it you can know for sure if you will like it or not just by the box, which to be fair is good too as you get what you want, there is no risk of getting something you didn't want, and if you are into those games you will enjoy what you get."

This sentence absolutely blew my mind!

Anyways. I get your point. My thoughts lie with developers maintaining their vision, but accepting feedback on whatever they implement. That seems to be the case here.

The most important thing is communication and DE seem pretty good with that.

I think they have the balance right.

[Shinobi_no_Kami]

@OP, From Software's demon souls and dark souls are not as hard compared to the games from NES and SNES era IMO. Mario, Megaman, Contra(no cheat code) etc etc are still the hardest games I have ever played. *shiver*

[GrogBeard]

It's a fine line between giving the players what they think they want, and giving them what they don't know they need.

 

Also women? Chicka-bow-wow.

 

I would love to see the difficulty curve continue up and up. Right now the levels have these cool optional paths and routes that require agility, skill or stealth. Imagine with me, if those mechanics were not an option, but required. Enemies simply have too much health not to kill with a stealth attack. You would take to much damage crossing the floor of that warehouse, you have to run up into the rafters where there is cover. Going through the Solar-rail car filled with Corpus is suicide, better break the glass and wallrun on the adjacent car to pass those guys.

 

This would make stealth and CC very valuable, but also the proper and decisive application of force.

[GhostlightX]

Clazzeh, on 23 Apr 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

My question to all you out there is something that came to mind while listening to some of their more extreme opinions of how this will "ruin the game" and "make it too hard" for them. The question being here, what do you think is more important to you, the game being how the developer wants, or the game being how the fans want?

How the fans want, every time. With the caveat that sometimes the fans are dumb and you must carefully filter what they say/think they want.

Let me give you a prime example where the opposite prevailed...

The hardcore free-to-play ARPG 'Path of Exile'. Due to the massive loss of players experienced by Diablo 3 early this year, PoE found itself picking up tons of refugees from that game, and ended up with a huge and unexpected number of casual players when its open Beta began. It looked for a while like that game was going to be a stupendous runaway success, with a simply massive playerbase, unheard of for f2p. However, either because they were dumb or else afraid of success, the PoE developers chose to stick rigidly to their original (hardcore) vision and pretty much ignore the pleas of their casual players. PoE remains unforgivingly hard and has almost zero casual-friendly options; preferring to stick to cut-throat mechanics like FFA loot. Net result, the game has lost most of its playerbase because - you guessed it - only a tiny amount were actually hardcore players.

Adapt or die. If you are going to have an open Beta, you are usually doing so to listen to the concerns of your players and should react accordingly. Having said that, if it is fundamental aspects of the game that we are talking about (such as it being too easy in the late-game planets), I believe it always better the think about adding the OPTION to change it rather than simply change it. Options please everybody.

Edited April 23, 2013 by GhostlightX