Critical Chance On Weapons.

[Mactax]

Dear developers, it is essential to know what is the critical chance of weapons. As a players we don't have the resources to properly test this stats. Does critical chance mod on AKbolto worth it? Dual ether? Grakata? We don't know it...

[Soulfighter]

same goes with powers damage, duration etc etc

 

Dear devs, if you want some players to take your game seriously you'll have to take them seriously and start informing them about your game. Thanks

[Xrylene]

I agree that DE need more transparency for their stats, especially for abilities, but I'll save you some trouble on the crit thing. At the moment, critical chance and critical damage are inferior to every other damage choice, even on the highest crit weapons.

[Tulzscha]

Well if you have the mod space to spare and don't have anything better to put in, a +100% Point Strike is pretty good for the Paris/Latron.

[Buddlschlumpf]

well, on a high base crit chance/crit dmg/fast attack melee weapon, crit dmg is worth it as it is superior to point strike (you don't use normal melee anyways) or fury (on a high base attack speed, the swing time is not a seriously limiting factor on your charge spam) or electrical dmg (30%? srsly?).

 

But besides this really narrow case, crit chance/dmg are inferior to every other dmg increasing mod.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Buddlschlumpf

[Qb3rt]

The idea of increasing crit% as a % of base crit rate is one of the most illogical errors in the game IMO. It doesn't make sense in this, OR ANY game.

 

Crit damage is a logarithmic function..... and guess what happens when you start scaling exponents linearly!?

 

The other crime is the arbitrary bonus that Rifle crit mods have over Shotgun crit mods.... even though Rifles have generally higher crit rates and the mods both work in the same way. Using a crit mod on Shotguns is a waste of a slot.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Qb3rt

[RIOT]

+1. Alot of people want more stats to read in the menu. I've seen several posts like this.. maybe one of theses days the devs will comment on it.

[EchoLG]

Crit Chance and Crit damage are only worth it on the Paris or some high crit melee weapon, anything else won't make much use of it so you would be better off with something else.

[Xrylene]

Crit Chance and Crit damage are only worth it on the Paris or some high crit melee weapon, anything else won't make much use of it so you would be better off with something else.

Even then, multishot is better than crit, because it reaches a near guaranteed point and costs less capacity and slots, so it combines with your other mods better.

[Argoms]

What if weapons had special effects on crits? Say, snipetron penetrates enemies/walls, grakata staggers enemies etc.? Then at least we'd get something out of them other than damage.

[Xrylene]

What if weapons had special effects on crits? Say, snipetron penetrates enemies/walls, grakata staggers enemies etc.? Then at least we'd get something out of them other than damage.

 

Yes, and that would be a random chance, which would be stupid. Should the Paris only have a random chance of double/triple headshotting when you aim it right? Should the Hek only have a random chance of shooting straight? Should the Amphis only have a random chance of having it's electrical effect take place? The answer to all of them is no, user input should always be the decisive factor, not random number generation.

[Argoms]

Yes, and that would be a random chance, which would be stupid. Should the Paris only have a random chance of double/triple headshotting when you aim it right? Should the Hek only have a random chance of shooting straight? Should the Amphis only have a random chance of having it's electrical effect take place? The answer to all of them is no, user input should always be the decisive factor, not random number generation.

Then why do we have crits?

 

I personally hate random chance too, but I feel like if we're going to have it, we might as well make it interesting.

[Xrylene]

Then why do we have crits?

 

I personally hate random chance too, but I feel like if we're going to have it, we might as well make it interesting.

We have crits because games like WoW and LoL do. They have crits because Dungeons and Dragons does. Know what the difference is? Critical hits in D&D were a simulation of striking vital areas, such as the head. They were random because the entire game was random, it wasn't just crit that was, even stuff like how far you jumped, whether an attack hit or missed entirely, the damage dealt from the attack, as well as stuff like if you get hit by an attack that deals 50 damage or more, you have a random chance of dying instantly, even if your health is way higher than that. D&D also had critical fumbles, a chance of a sort of reverse crit such as striking yourself with your own weapon, losing your grip on it and having it go tumbling away, or tripping when trying to jump.

 

This game has the ability to aim, headshots, and hitting the leg of ancients, are critical hits already in the original sense. We don't need random chance to simulate whether an attack hit those parts, because it is in the player's hands. Crits are also not skill based at all, while aim is.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Xrylene

[Argoms]

We have crits because games like WoW and LoL do. They have crits because Dungeons and Dragons does. Know what the difference is? Critical hits in D&D were a simulation of striking vital areas, such as the head. They were random because the entire game was random, it wasn't just crit that was, even stuff like how far you jumped, whether an attack hit or missed entirely, the damage dealt from the attack, as well as stuff like if you get hit by an attack that deals 50 damage or more, you have a random chance of dying instantly, even if your health is way higher than that. D&D also had critical fumbles, a chance of a sort of reverse crit such as striking yourself with your own weapon, losing your grip on it and having it go tumbling away, or tripping when trying to jump.

 

This game has the ability to aim, headshots, and hitting the leg of ancients, are critical hits already in the original sense. We don't need random chance to simulate whether an attack hit those parts, because it is in the player's hands. Crits are also not skill based at all, while aim is.

 

Then why do we have crits? And why do you suddenly jump on my suggestion about crits instead of trying to say that crits shouldn't happen in the first place as a topic, if that's what all your reasoning seems to point towards?

[Xrylene]

Then why do we have crits? And why do you suddenly jump on my suggestion about crits instead of trying to say that crits shouldn't happen in the first place as a topic, if that's what all your reasoning seems to point towards?

I'm saying this game does not need randomness when skill and aim are a possibility, so crit, and other random variables on attack like what you suggest and the stun mods, are completely unnecessary. Why suggest ways to buff something that doesn't need to be in this game in the first place? Wouldn't it be better, considering DE has stated they may add weapon specific mods, to discuss special properties that could be applied to weapons as mods instead? The Snipetron could have innate Puncture, the Grakata could have an effect where upon hitting an enemy with a certain amount of sustained fire, like say 10 shots, it staggers them.

 

What I'm saying is, that sort of attention towards making crit better could be better spent elsewhere, on non random things that could benefit the game to a greater degree.

[Argoms]

I'm saying this game does not need randomness when skill and aim are a possibility, so crit, and other random variables on attack like what you suggest and the stun mods, are completely unnecessary. Why suggest ways to buff something that doesn't need to be in this game in the first place? Wouldn't it be better, considering DE has stated they may add weapon specific mods, to discuss special properties that could be applied to weapons as mods instead? The Snipetron could have innate Puncture, the Grakata could have an effect where upon hitting an enemy with a certain amount of sustained fire, like say 10 shots, it staggers them.

 

What I'm saying is, that sort of attention towards making crit better could be better spent elsewhere, on non random things that could benefit the game to a greater degree.

Sure, I agree with that. Also my examples were terrible and didn't really show what I meant at all.

 

I think the only example that shows what I tried to say is the grakata. Add one bullet to your magazine per crit- makes crit builds capable of more sustained fire at the cost of immediate damage. It's intended to be used with crit mods (stated in most recent livestream), and seems to be the only gun to do so. Not every weapon needs a crit effect, but I feel like a weapon designed to be used with crits should get some extra benefit from them.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Argoms

[Potato0707]

Dear developers, it is essential to know what is the critical chance of weapons. As a players we don't have the resources to properly test this stats. Does critical chance mod on AKbolto worth it? Dual ether? Grakata? We don't know it...

All I know is, no matter what the weapon I use, i only see red numbers pop up about as often as, well, a red moon

Critting in WF is ridiculously hard, and I think crit rate for me has ben about once every 1000 rounds from the mk 1 bratwurst, or never when using furax. The numbers just don't match up with the wiki

[mmSNAKE]

Crit chances in general need some balancing for certain weapons. They are only somewhat viable with some melee weapons and perhaps Snipetron (if it just had a bigger magazine...).

[Visarogo]

I feel personally the only thing limiting Crits currently is the lack of knowledge.

For instance today he said the Grakata was made as a crit weapon. I would as would many others like to know what the actual % is as well as the % on the other weapons.  The Dual Ethers have at least from my experience a higher crit chance %  and today I've seen more crits on the Boltor than I have previously. Now some of this could be due to random chance but maybe the reason they havn't released this information yet is because of them constantly trying to balance it at the present. As forward and open as this team has been I really think it has to be something like this otherwise I think Steve would have given out the numbers (he seems very much open about anything that is upcoming or set unless it's undergoing a lot of changes.)

 

just my thoughts

[Soulfighter]

bumping for great justice

[Shinnyshin]

Crit chance doesn't belong in this game.  It just doesn't.  And Crit Damage should be weak-spot multipliers.  This, unfortunately, would require a rework of elemental damage interactions with the various body parts...

[Visarogo]

i feel like higher crit chance and no weak spots (grineer face) would work or no crit hits and weak spots are "crits" 

i do agree somewhat that there is a unnecessary overlap but i don't view this as a bad thing.  i quite enjoy seeing a critical hit on my melee weapons.  since they are next to impossible to pick where you will hit i think a compromise can be reached on this

 

ranged weapons (primary secondary) do not need critical hits and instead have weak spot modifiers so when you shoot the grineer in the face they take more damage.  this would be based on skill instead of chance as such a firearm should be

 

melee weapons should keep crit chance and damage since the limitations of the game prevent you from choosing exactly where your sword will hit or which way it will swing

 

I think this fixes all the problems surrounding the crit chance / weak spot debate and still makes the game functional and sensable

[Xrylene]

i feel like higher crit chance and no weak spots (grineer face) would work or no crit hits and weak spots are "crits" 

i do agree somewhat that there is a unnecessary overlap but i don't view this as a bad thing.  i quite enjoy seeing a critical hit on my melee weapons.  since they are next to impossible to pick where you will hit i think a compromise can be reached on this

 

ranged weapons (primary secondary) do not need critical hits and instead have weak spot modifiers so when you shoot the grineer in the face they take more damage.  this would be based on skill instead of chance as such a firearm should be

 

melee weapons should keep crit chance and damage since the limitations of the game prevent you from choosing exactly where your sword will hit or which way it will swing

 

I think this fixes all the problems surrounding the crit chance / weak spot debate and still makes the game functional and sensable

 

 

Or, now that we've seen melee weapons CAN be aimed with the introduction of the Glaive, what if they actually incorporated that into all melee weapons? Much as your crosshairs aim your guns, they could also angle your melee weapon, allowing for melee headshots, targeting infested limbs, etc.

 

The thing is, what you are talking about fixes most of the crit problem, but it still ignores a few key details. The first is that crit sucks, even on melee, and the second is that it's still random. Hell, a "Combo" stat would be better than crit, three consecutive attacks on the same enemy results in bonus damage, that'd be fine, especially if it could be comboed with the slide attack and ground slam. For example, attack them once, then slide attack them twice, the second slide attack deals double damage. So on a low base damage weapon(25), this could mean hits of 25>50>100, when normally it would just be 25>50>50.

 

Even if the aiming thing can't be done for melee, there is the argument that slide attacks and charge attacks ARE melee crits, much as headshots are ranged crits. Slide attacks deal double damage, while charge attacks tend to do from triple to four times damage, and both require a bit more effort than standard attacks.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Xrylene

[Visarogo]

true Crits need a buff badly the current damage rate doesn't make sense when compared to more damage from other mods even on high chance weapons

and while the charge on the glaive is aimable it still falls into what I would consider a ranged attack albeit with a melee weapon

I can see the side of the argument that charge and slide attacks can/should take place of critical hits and fill that role but I personally feel differently on this.

To me the ground slams should only be for 2h weapons since otherwise there is not enough extra weight to make it worth doing and the slide attacks should only be for smaller more nimble weapons since doing that with a big heavy hammer axe while fun and neat is a little extreme

I'm not saying it can't be done by a 'space ninja' I would just like more uniqueness. backstabs should be reserved for daggers IMO as well for the same reasons

charge attacks being what they are and damage being so high should have bigger drawback. easier to be stunned during the windup larger reset time to continue after you swing the bigger weapons that way

I feel like dark souls had the weapon mechanics beautifully done and while this game is not the same type of game a system like that for the 'feel' of the weapons would work great for this game IMO

[Geuax]

Well if you have the mod space to spare and don't have anything better to put in, a +100% Point Strike is pretty good for the Paris/Latron.

crit  mod are the worst damage  boosting mods

 

damage >multishot>element damage> utility mods> crit mods