Perma-Banned Already, It's A Bit Sensitive

[ZKAT8IT]

The browser and OS things aren't strange, and neither is the site's ability to know where you're from, that's called an IP.

 

But they sure as hell don't check for offline software on your PC.

Also, anti-cheat programs aren't needed if you have proper server-side management of the game.

But Warframe handles pretty much everything client-side, which is completely $&*&*#(%& and is the reason for easy hacking on many other games.

That would depend on the website. New technology is being made every day. If there's a java application or flash on the site it could do much more. Access your webcam, etc... Sure it might not be able to grab a list of running applications. But it can still do just as much to "invade privacy" as grabbing a list of running applications. What are you afraid they'll find in your application list anyways? One of those old dial-up connection porn programs? Or a strip poker game? xD

[Squig]

I'm going to be honest, as someone who sunk a lot of money into this game it worries me. Particularly since everyone seems to prefer the burden of proof be on showing you were innocent and not showing that in fact the accused were/are guilty of cheating on warframe. I mean heck technically according to the EULA/ToS they could even ban me for THIS post.

[Brawl]

 Yeah, because we all know that there is 0 possibility the OP is lying about why the Anti-cheat noticed Cheat Engine running.

 

 Totally. Because people never lie about that. Never.

 

We will never know his intention however if he didn't use the tool to cheat with it on Warframe, he shouldn't be banned.

No crime, no punishment.

 

 

The anticheat can not determine whether he was going to use it on Warframe or not. All it knows is he had the cheat/hack installed, it's possible to use to cheat/hack on Warframe. Therefor he was banned for it. For all the anticheat knows, he ran the cheat, and before he could tell it what game he wanted to use it on, he was caught with it.

 

"You have something that can be used to break the law, therefor you are guilty."

Is this really what you stand for?

Edited April 25, 2013 by Brawl

[Blatantfool]

We will never know his intention however if he didn't use the tool to cheat with it on Warframe, he shouldn't be banned.

No crime, no punishment.

 

 

 This is simply incorrect. He openly admits to have a program that IS flagged running simultaneously with the game. He was banned for it. Likely because he is simply lying about this flash game and wanted to test his luck using it on Warframe. People have made worse decisions before.

 

 He was banned for running Cheat Engine and triggering the Anti-cheat with it. Whether the Anti-cheat was triggered by the program being active OR whether it was triggered because he attempted to use it on Warframe is something we could not possibly know.

 

 But he admitted from the start that it was that very thing that caused it. It was open and that was what Warframe reacted to.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Blatantfool

[GottFaust]

That would depend on the website. New technology is being made every day. If there's a java application or flash on the site it could do much more. Access your webcam, etc... Sure it might not be able to grab a list of running applications. But it can still do just as much to "invade privacy" as grabbing a list of running applications. What are you afraid they'll find in your application list anyways? One of those old dial-up connection porn programs? Or a strip poker game? xD

Actually a web based java app (not java-script but actual java) can get a full list of processes, run full searches on any file in your computer that it wants, and even make System.env calls with some clever programming.

To the OP and anyone else who has been caught for hacking: Face it, you got caught, there's no use lying about it on the forums especially considering that it's that much more obvious when you do.

[Dagnome]

So let me get this straight.. you were banned for running a hacking program while Warframe was running. Is that what I am to understand? 

I will see you in 2035!

 

Whether you were actually hacking a "Flash game" in your browser DE will not appeal your ban because you failed to "Read the warning". They shouldn't have to even post a warning about running hacking programs (like cheat engine) in the background of their game. 

[ZKAT8IT]

"You have something that can be used to break the law, therefor you are guilty."

Is this really what you stand for?

I never said that. I simply stated how he was banned in the first place regardless of his reason. However in this instance, he was breaking an EULA of another game and was caught by Warframe's anti-cheat, at least as he claims. But even so, you shouldn't be running such applications at the same time an anti-cheat system can ban you for simply having it.

 

Actually a web based java app (not java-script but actual java) can get a full list of processes, run full searches on any file in your computer that it wants, and even make System.env calls with some clever programming.

I figured it could, but wasn't sure. I've only done minimal java and flash programming. I tend to stick to C++ and the liking, I leave the web development to my sister xD

[GottFaust]

I never said that. I simply stated how he was banned in the first place regardless of his reason. However in this instance, he was breaking an EULA of another game and was caught by Warframe's anti-cheat, at least as he claims. But even so, you shouldn't be running such applications at the same time an anti-cheat system can ban you for simply having it.

You made the mistake of responding to a straw-man argument with something other than a straw-man. A more accurate response would have been something along the lines of the following:

"Officer, just because I'm wearing body armor, a balaclava, carrying an AK-47, and yelling about robbing this bank doesn't mean I was really going to do it!"

Is this what you stand for?

I figured it could, but wasn't sure. I've only done minimal java and flash programming. I tend to stick to C++ and the liking, I leave the web development to my sister xD

As a professional Software Engineer I daily program in C++, Java, Python, Perl, and various other scripting languages. I don't know if it's the same for the whole field though.

[Skulliedoo]

Its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to sensitive in my opinion. We cant run software to listen music or skype, and the game sees it as a cheat/hack software. i mean cmon this is ridiculous getting banned for not ''cheating/hacking''.

I'm quite sure the only things that get you banned are programs such as CheatEngine. I've been running Warframe in the background while having things as VLC, MySQL, SQLyog and whatever C++ scripts go with it open at the same time and haven't had anything happen yet.

I assume it detects anomalies in memory usage (be it for Warframe or not) and decides on that.

 

 It is a funny thing. The people who are good at getting away with it just happen to have fun that way. The game isn't important, just getting it to work and seeing peoples reaction.

 

 Every single 'LOL WAT' or 'OMG SO STUPID' is a big win. The giggling on skype back in APB was enough to be me laughing too and I didn't do much aside from drive everyone around.

 

 He answered a guy who asked "When are you gonna grow up and stop this g*y sh*t." with "When you stop being so god d*mned funny about it."

 

 Pretty good answer.

If it's an online game, you deserve to get banned for 'hacking' it publicly. If you giggle over being able to fly in a game you usually can't fly in then I'm sad to say you probably didn't qualify to be playing the game in the first place.

[Brawl]

I never said that. I simply stated how he was banned in the first place regardless of his reason. However in this instance, he was breaking an EULA of another game and was caught by Warframe's anti-cheat, at least as he claims. But even so, you shouldn't be running such applications at the same time an anti-cheat system can ban you for simply having it.

 

I figured it could, but wasn't sure. I've only done minimal java and flash programming. I tend to stick to C++ and the liking, I leave the web development to my sister xD

 

You did say that and now you repeat it. You want people to be punishable for owning something [CheatEngine] that can be used to break the law [EULA].

 

On the matter of third-party tools that can be misused the EULA 2.f states:

 

"The limited, personal use license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the following restrictions and limitations as well as all other terms and conditions of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience"

 

The word we're looking at here is 'use'. The OP never http://www.thefreedictionary.com/use'>used the tool to begin with meaning he didn't breach the EULA.

 

 

You made the mistake of responding to a straw-man argument with something other than a straw-man. A more accurate response would have been something along the lines of the following:

"Officer, just because I'm wearing body armor, a balaclava, carrying an AK-47, and yelling about robbing this bank doesn't mean I was really going to do it!"

Is this what you stand for?

As a professional Software Engineer I daily program in C++, Java, Python, Perl, and various other scripting languages. I don't know if it's the same for the whole field though.

 

 

Your own argument would be the straw-man. Guns are made to kill with and are illegal to own where I live, there are states where people are allowed to own one to defend themselves. Terrible comparison.

 

If you really are a programmer then you should know that the tool is just a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheat_Engine'>memory scanner/hex editor/debugger.

The fact that the tool is coincidently called CheatEngine does not automatically make it's purpose solely for cheating.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Brawl

[Blatantfool]

If it's an online game, you deserve to get banned for 'hacking' it publicly. If you giggle over being able to fly in a game you usually can't fly in then I'm sad to say you probably didn't qualify to be playing the game in the first place.

 

 Yeah, that is fine and dandy. I'm not into that stuff myself. It is more trouble then its worth and I enjoy normal progression.

 

 But I don't know if you were familiar with the state APB was in. That game was the Titanic.. Players like my friend weren't nearly what was actually sinking the ship either. They just didn't do anything about cheaters or much of anything. It was a silly thing.

 

 And in the last month or two of my time in APB, when I was playing with this dude often, we actually did less screwing people over and more generally being silly buggers. I got a spraypaint a giant pair of tatas on a police precinct. That right there is some next gen gameplay. What's funnier still was I played a Cop in that game.

[Skulliedoo]

 

You did say that and now you repeat it. You want people to be punishable for owning something [CheatEngine] that can be used to break the law [EULA].

 

On the matter of third-party tools that can be misused the EULA 2.f states:

 

"The limited, personal use license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the following restrictions and limitations as well as all other terms and conditions of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience"

 

The word we're looking at here is 'use'. The OP never used the tool to begin with meaning he didn't breach the EULA.

He was running it. Whether or not he used it for Warframe is irrelevant. He WAS using a tool that can modify the client. So he got banned by the anti-cheat software.

Hard to understand?

[Bakim0n0]

Yea we are in a testing phase now, and innocent people get banned for nothing. 

 

What if someone wants to play Warframe and his job is hacker / hack tester / and jobs like that where you need hack software for? He probably got hack software on his pc to test his/someone elses hacks. Even if he dont hack on Warframe he will get banned right now. That is not fair at all. People who ''really'' hack in a game should be banned. Not people who run software which they dont know if the system will see it as a cheat software or not.

I'm not sure I believe the premise of someone having a job to test hacks on f2p games from their personal PC's but... if someone was savvy enough to land a job similar to that they wouldn't be running that / testing that while using thier personal account and would know better than to leave cheat / hack programs running while playing games with cheat detection.

[Fjarri]

 

You did say that and now you repeat it. You want people to be punishable for owning something [CheatEngine] that can be used to break the law [EULA].

 

On the matter of third-party tools that can be misused the EULA 2.f states:

 

"The limited, personal use license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the following restrictions and limitations as well as all other terms and conditions of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience"

 

The word we're looking at here is 'use'. The OP never used the tool to begin with meaning he didn't breach the EULA.

 

And how can DE verify that without collecting massive amounts of irrelevant and/or private info from your computer?

 

As house says: "Everybody Lies" The devs know that, and they can't spend resources to actually determine the validity of the OP.

[GottFaust]

You did say that and now you repeat it. You want people to be punishable for owning something [CheatEngine] that can be used to break the law [EULA].

On the matter of third-party tools that can be misused the EULA 2.f states:

"The limited, personal use license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the following restrictions and limitations as well as all other terms and conditions of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience"

The word we're looking at here is 'use'. The OP never used the tool to begin with meaning he didn't breach the EULA.

Last I checked, running software counts as using it. Maybe I wouldn't know being an ignorant Software Engineer and all...

Something you've failed to grasp is that it's exceedingly rare for a hacking software application to provide an API to allow for external programs to determine exactly what they're being used for/on. In fact that kind of goes against their very purpose. Furthermore running a constant memory-state-comparison is completely unfeasable on something like a game that actually requires some sort of responsiveness. With that stated the only safe thing to do is to detect that the offending software is running and react to it accordingly, which is what happened here.

Stop looking for loopholes where they don't exist and where you have little to no understanding of the subject's technical side.

Edited April 25, 2013 by GottFaust

[Cakes]

 

You did say that and now you repeat it. You want people to be punishable for owning something [CheatEngine] that can be used to break the law [EULA].

 

On the matter of third-party tools that can be misused the EULA 2.f states:

 

"The limited, personal use license granted to you in Section 1 is subject to the following restrictions and limitations as well as all other terms and conditions of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). You agree that you will not, under any circumstances:

f. use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software, tools or content designed to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience"

 

The word we're looking at here is 'use'. The OP never used the tool to begin with meaning he didn't breach the EULA.

 

OP claims the tool was never used on Warframe. I won't rule out the unlikely possibility that you possess some form of confirmation that OP never used it on Warframe, but will have to ask for evidence of that.

 

No use bickering until OP comes back with their 4th account post, which hopefully details the support ticket results.

[Skulliedoo]

I'm not sure I believe the premise of someone having a job to test hacks on f2p games from their personal PC's but... if someone was savvy enough to land a job similar to that they wouldn't be running that / testing that while using thier personal account and would know better than to leave cheat / hack programs running while playing games with cheat detection.

^--- This.

 

And how can DE verify that without collecting massive amounts of irrelevant and/or private info from your computer?

 

As house says: "Everybody Lies" The devs know that, and they can't spend resources to actually determine the validity of the OP.

Running a simple name scan of active programs is quite an often used anti-cheat mechanism. Most people don't bother renaming their Windows programs regardless of tools they use. If you've got nothing to hide, then you wouldn't mind.

[Brawl]

I was pretty sure I provided a link to the definition of use.

"To put into service or apply for a purpose"

Did the OP use the tool with purpose to modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience?

No, he did not. Simply running it isn't using it (according to the law).

 

ITT: People just want to see the OP burn and forget the law is objective.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Brawl

[Fjarri]

^--- This.

 

Running a simple name scan of active programs is quite an often used anti-cheat mechanism. Most people don't bother renaming their Windows programs regardless of tools they use. If you've got nothing to hide, then you wouldn't mind.

 

Makes sense. But tell me are you SURE they are using that kind of anti-cheat (extremely easy to go around)? The op prolly was caught another way.

 

Also, changing the name of a program, in my experience can be an extremely tedious process if it has extraneous parts in the computer.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Fjarri

[CaedesEnder]

I hate EULA, tl;dr on them

 

It's these things that make me wonder if I really own the game I bought with my money. 

Not saying you could hack online games especially competitive ones, I hate aimbots on BF3.

generaly, no you dont. you own the disk and hardware IF there is any but most eula reserve the right to walk into your house and wipe the disc and your PC (+ any backups which you are legaly required to inform them of)) of any data at any time for any reason (Dawn of war 2 i know does this(was bored on the bus home so i read it lol)).

the big point to make is that, although they reserve the right to do it for ANY reason, the reason has to be just. and lets face it, its more effort on their part to do it and would only cost them a customer (or make them dload illegal) so they dont. Only when you push the limit do they step in and say "tuff".

Id say this one falls into that catagory, you agreed they could, they found a valid reason, so they did.

Ok this may have been as you said, but that is still against the EULA, so if anything, your post here is only condeming yourself by admitting you broke that agreement.

Personaly, I have cheated on games, Mainly console stuff (up,down,left,right,a,b,c,start ftw!) Ive only done it Multiplayer to annoy a mate in lan games and I didnt even know this "cheat Engine" thing existed, and i dont care enough to go and dload it as I have no games that i could possibly imagine I would useif for, Flash game? gimmie a break lol, if you cheated in a flash game then IMO you deserve the ban simply for wasting time :P

Reminds me of a guy i saw at a lan event, 1500 ppl there, £50 to get in for three days, bring your own rig and the guy behind me sat for the full three days playing Flash and java soloplayer games. I mean wtf :/

 

[Inihilus]

This is 8 pages of speculation and armchair lawyering.

 

If the OP has raised a ticket because they feel they have been banned unfairly, then it will be judged on its merits.

 

Arguing over whether an EULA was broken based on hearsay is going to go nowhere.

[Skulliedoo]

I was pretty sure I provided a link to the definition of use.

"To put into service or apply for a purpose"

Did the OP use the tool with purpose of modify the Software, the Service or the Game experience?

No, he did not. Simply running it isn't using it (according to the law).

 

ITT: People just want to see the OP burn and forget the law is objective.

He might as well have been using it on Warframe and now claims he hasn't used it.

"To put into service or apply for a purpose"

The purpose of that program is to hack. He ran it, knowing very well that it's a hacking tool and more than likely was aiming to use it for SOMETHING. Game software picks up on him using the program, and removes him.

ITT: You forget people lie a lot if they use these programs for anything.

[Brawl]

This is 8 pages of speculation and armchair lawyering.

 

If the OP has raised a ticket because they feel they have been banned unfairly, then it will be judged on its merits.

 

Arguing over whether an EULA was broken based on hearsay is going to go nowhere.

He might as well have been using it on Warframe and now claims he hasn't used it.

"To put into service or apply for a purpose"

The purpose of that program is to hack. He ran it, knowing very well that it's a hacking tool and more than likely was aiming to use it for SOMETHING. Game software picks up on him using the program, and removes him.

ITT: You forget people lie a lot if they use these programs for anything.

 

Agreed Inihilus, however you must remember that 'Innocent until proven guilty' is of utmost importance if you want the law to stay objective. Hence why I will assume the OP isn't lying until his guilt is proven.

 

Skulliedoo, the tool is just a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheat_Engine'>memory scanner/hex editor/debugger.

The fact that the tool is coincidently called CheatEngine does not automatically make it's purpose solely for cheating.

 

I believe ultimately the question is:

Do we really want people to get auto-banned permanently for running applications in the background, not necessarily hooked into the client, that COULD be used to hack Warframe with?

Edited April 25, 2013 by Brawl

[rawrifficus]

 Do not run hacking programs while playing Warframe. You will be banned.

 

Straight from the update notes.

 

/thread.

[Inihilus]

 

 

Agreed Inihilus, however you must remember that 'Innocent until proven guilty' is of utmost importance if you want the law to stay objective. Hence why I will assume the OP isn't lying until his guilt is proven.

 

Skulliedoo, the tool is just a memory scanner/hex editor/debugger.

The fact that the tool is coincidently called CheatEngine does not automatically make it's purpose solely for cheating.

 

I believe ultimately the question is:

Do we really want people to get auto-banned permanently for running applications in the background, not necessarily hooked into the client, that COULD be used to hack Warframe with?

 

 

Possibly, but why debate it at all? There are no facts here. There is a statement from someone that might or might have been banned, possibly for the reasons they state, but possibly not.

It's your bandwidth, but "objectivity" based on hypotheticals is a mental exercise at best, and hysteria at worst.