Duel Ethers Needs A Nerf

[Eltoshan]

I wasn't aware Xini high level defense missions were the measuring stick for balance.

 

And I did so name then, look at my earlier post.

You named the Strun and nothing else, unless you mean some post in some other thread. :V

 

I personally don't think Xini qualifies as the only measuring stick for balance, but there are too many people who do. And while they take it too far (see: every argument that any weapon that isn't useful there as being bad/worthless) there's somewhat of a point in that when only a pathetically tiny subset of guns that can be counted on one hand are useful at that point, you have a problem both in terms of that level of the game (which will probably be rectified in time since Warframe is hardly done putting out content, obviously) or in lower levels of content where that subset of guns makes everything else look embarrassing by comparison.

 

Or the tl;dr version that 'it's dumb as heck (ho ho ho) to use the current hardest content as a measuring stick for balance but it can still reflect on other things'

[f3llyn]

You named the Strun and nothing else, unless you mean some post in some other thread. :V

 

I personally don't think Xini qualifies as the only measuring stick for balance, but there are too many people who do. And while they take it too far (see: every argument that any weapon that isn't useful there as being bad/worthless) there's somewhat of a point in that when only a pathetically tiny subset of guns that can be counted on one hand are useful at that point, you have a problem both in terms of that level of the game (which will probably be rectified in time since Warframe is hardly done putting out content, obviously) or in lower levels of content where that subset of guns makes everything else look embarrassing by comparison.

 

Or the tl;dr version that 'it's dumb as heck (ho ho ho) to use the current hardest content as a measuring stick for balance but it can still reflect on other things'

 

This thread is about the dual ethers...

[Eltoshan]

You don't need to remind people what the topic is about when I literally mentioned that myself but you kept on arguing about the Hek derail. :V

 

Well, not like the original topic had much point or reason to it, anyway, except for reminding that the melee weapon balance in general needs to be looked at with respect to charge/normal swing shenanigans.

[TunaMayo]

People in this thread keep comparing Dual ether to other melee weapons. Might i remind everyone that at present, in a game where melee and guns are both supposed to be equally viable, the majority of guns, pistols/rifles/shotguns alike, trump melee. Why would you want to nerf all swords to be as useless as the next? 

 

Despite the DPS on the ethers being significant lower than that of wide AOE weapons (scindo/fragor/gram/DHS) you guys still want to nerf it? Even though all melee weapons are beaten by guns. Can we not just slightly buff some of the insignificant weapons to be at least usable? For example, the Bo and the Ankyros need a buff more than the ether needs a nerf. 

 

Ergo, can we not simply agree that at present, weapons are not balanced. As of now range beats melee, which should not be the case in a game where melee is so heavily emphasised. Can we make melee an equal method of damaging enemies before nerbatting them....

[f3llyn]

You don't need to remind people what the topic is about when I literally mentioned that myself but you kept on arguing about the Hek derail. :V

 

Well, not like the original topic had much point or reason to it, anyway, except for reminding that the melee weapon balance in general needs to be looked at with respect to charge/normal swing shenanigans.

 

I only mentioned the hek because some one else did.

[mmSNAKE]

It takes about lv 55 Grineer or so for Dual Ethers not being able to one shot it with charge attack (non crit). That is with 100 attack, which is pretty average for a weapon as such.

 

Regular strikes are only good up to lv 30 or so, past that you are wasting your time, even with the armor ignore or 3x damage to infested. Pressure Point mod needs a buff.

 

As it is regular strikes for weapons in this game are gimped and need re-balancing for all weapons. That is where this issue really is, since Charge Damage ignores armor regardless.

 

Most of the complaints are about something that doesn't even make much difference once you start fighting enemies past 30. Also the way you establish how weapon holds up is to take it through the hardest stress test you can throw at it. That is the endless defense missions and some alerts. Otherwise it doesn't matter, large majority of the game is rather easy if you supercharge your weapons and mod them accordingly.

[brooklynlord]

Is no one else baffled by the fact that ether daggers has no innate armor ignore like every other dagger (and dual heat swords, i think)?

And dual ethers do?

 

Idk. I'm just confused at why, but hey, ether daggers are pretty nice with their fast aspd and 30 damage.

 

I'll say that I've gotten used to the dagger's aspd; dual ethers actually feel much to slow to me.

It's probably because i have 30% aspd fury on my daggers.

(woo for vindictus conditioning me for fast gameplay)

 

for the dual ethers though, i don't know what to do.

It seems to work? I'd say put the morphics cost up to something like 4. Ether daggers cost 5, and both weapons are very good compared to most of the other melee weapons (Ankryos, furax?, cronus, skana, dual skana, possibly heat sword?)

I do have to say i haven't used a true single dagger before.

Edited April 26, 2013 by brooklynlord

[SorainRavenshaw]

It takes about lv 55 Grineer or so for Dual Ethers not being able to one shot it with charge attack (non crit). That is with 100 attack, which is pretty average for a weapon as such.

 

Regular strikes are only good up to lv 30 or so, past that you are wasting your time, even with the armor ignore or 3x damage to infested. Pressure Point mod needs a buff.

 

As it is regular strikes for weapons in this game are gimped and need re-balancing for all weapons. That is where this issue really is, since Charge Damage ignores armor regardless.

 

Most of the complaints are about something that doesn't even make much difference once you start fighting enemies past 30. Also the way you establish how weapon holds up is to take it through the hardest stress test you can throw at it. That is the endless defense missions and some alerts. Otherwise it doesn't matter, large majority of the game is rather easy if you supercharge your weapons and mod them accordingly.

that is a very salient point. The fact charged attacks ignore armor but normal ones don't on most weapons makes charged attacks by far preferable against more then 1/3 of all enemy types. The Duel Eather Blades (why not the daggers again?) ability to ignore armor would give them the 'flailing weapon' niche without the slashing damage bonus vs infected. Together it makes them the closest to enjoyable tool for doing so.

A good chunk of the normal attack problem is in the terribly weak damage mod compared to charged attacks which are already (and fairly so) more powerful. It honestly boggles my mind why anyone would take 47% damage for the same slots at 100% or so. (has not run the numbers recently enough to state with certainty this one has.)

[ASH_PRIME]

It's just too much bang for its buck. Removing armor ignore and the triple damage vs infected would make it more balanced.

yeah great idea...remove both blades from the handles while You are at it... and just whack infected with the hilts!

[TrueSone]

Nope.avi

 

Seriously...don't touch my dual ethers.

[GambitJ79]

all you're doing is whining when you complain and ask for a nerf because you're getting left behind.  Obviously balance is needed but I've seen many games destroyed because of people complaining someone else can play better.  character stats get nerfed - weapons get nerfed - then the enemies get nerfed...

[SlyBoots]

so what's the perceived "problem"... that they're too versatile? (and only their regular melee hits...?)

Edited April 26, 2013 by SlyBoots

[toolofdarkness]

if he's complaning about the DE being op just make it do less damage on Grineer and ok on Corpus (because they are almost the infected) and keep the 3X on infected. Then all will be well right?

[Qb3rt]

I honestly am having a hard time finding a situation where I'd rather be using a different melee weapon than these. Ultimately that's an unfortunate sign of imbalance. Admitting so goes against my better judgement because I love these peckers to death.

 

so what's the perceived "problem"... that they're too versatile? (and only their regular melee hits...?)

That's it right there, IMO. The versatility is a lot like another weapon I expect will inevitably get nerfed at some point for being far too powerful for how versatile they are (Akbolto pistols) ... there really aren't any weaknesses to these weapons.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Qb3rt

[DBugII]

Nerf the Scindo and the Fragor while you're at it. (No, I'm not serious)

 

I rarely found myself using the Dual Ethers after maxing them, here's a couple of hints why:

1. Charge and base damage is worthless on higher level mobs. I don't care much about triple damage because I mainly use abilities to deal with the already incredibly squishy infested mobs. Since the triple damage doesn't affect Ancients, I'm better off charge-spamming a heavy weapon. It can hit multiple people at once? So can heavy weapons and other dual weapons.

2. Versatility is par. It's good, not great. There are weapons which surpass Dual Ethers in armor piercing, charge, and jump damage abilities. If anything, the Dual Ether should be the weapon that all others are compared to. Dual daggers beat it in DPS, Heavies beat it in charge damage and AoE, etc.

 

I agree, the Ethers are fun to use. They're far from overpowered though.

[Effusion-]

I'm not of the "never nerf" mindset, but I think that in this case it would be better to improve the underperforming melee weapons rather than nerf the ones that do work.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Effusion-

[Kaidinah]

It's just too much bang for its buck. Removing armor ignore and the triple damage vs infected would make it more balanced.

Don't limit the good weapons! Buff the bad ones! Everything should be good like the dual ether!

[Baigan]

Why does the community only ask for nerfs instead of buffs

when you nerf the "OP" hek or the "OP" gorgon, and similarly you whine and scream for nerf of X, the devs will respond

and what do we end up with, a bunch of pillows for melee weapons and pea shooters for guns

why not ask for buffs so more lackluster equipment can start being on par and everything has strengths, as opposed to everything being equally crappy

 

I think it's a mentality widespread by the notion that "number 1 is better than the rest. bring number 1 on par with the rest so it feels competitive" (which automatically makes number 2 the new number 1, but all numbers would feel justice was made that day) instead of "number 9 is worse than number 1, buff number 9 to be the new number 1" (since everybody would cry bloody murder, why them and not me?!) Not to mention accepting you have the problem is "worse" than blaming something else for your troubles.

[magnaar]

sorry I disagree they are quite fine as they are.

[CaligoIllioneus]

I think it's a mentality widespread by the notion that "number 1 is better than the rest. bring number 1 on par with the rest so it feels competitive" (which automatically makes number 2 the new number 1, but all numbers would feel justice was made that day) instead of "number 9 is worse than number 1, buff number 9 to be the new number 1" (since everybody would cry bloody murder, why them and not me?!) Not to mention accepting you have the problem is "worse" than blaming something else for your troubles.

 

Because in this case "number 9" is simply too underpowered and not a viable alternative at all. Thus reducing Number 1 to the same level would simply cause all melee weapons to be absolutely useless. Number 1 is good without being overpowered, and there are several number 1s that fill different niches.  Therefore it's obvious that the best choice is to buff "number 9", unless you believe melee weapons should be reduced to an aesthetic option.

Edited May 2, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Renan.Ruivo]

It's just too much bang for its buck. Removing armor ignore and the triple damage vs infected would make it more balanced.

 

You know what else has armor ignore and triple damage vs infected? The Glaive (Armor Ignore when thrown)

[CaligoIllioneus]

The Dual Ethers are the only viable normal attack weapon apart from Fang, and Fang are daggers with 0 reach, but they do more DPS, so it's a different playstyle.

 

Nerf the Dual Ether and the niche they fill will be destroyed.

 

I think the people who want them nerfed are mistaken. Melee weapons as a whole have the difficult drawback of having to run from enemy to enemy while receiving fire from multiple sources...and some people don't want them to kill the basic enemies you reach in little time? Meh.

 

Also keep in mind Dual Ether has almost no range in its Jump Attack, so with this lack of crowd control, running from enemy to enemy is even riskier.

[GratuitousLurking]

Next they'll say the Mk-1 is op. Come on, guys, really?

[Tetsmeha]

I thought it was OP, but against infested there are far better choices you can use. It just feels OP because it's good against infected while still effective on Grineer. If you want OP, try using dark sword/plasma sword. It kills everything when modded properly.

 

If anything it's just a weapon that doesn't exceed in one trait, but isn't bad at anything. Just like the Braton.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Tetsmeha

[PaperAlien]

I'm fairly sure the Armor-ignoring quality was mistaken stolen from the Ether Daggers. All the same, now we actually get a viable light-melee weapon. They should buff all light-melees (including Dual Ether to a lesser extent), and then maybe take off the armour-ignore of Dual Ether. Although it does the the really weak jump attack.

Edited May 3, 2013 by PaperAlien