Update 7.9.0: The Glaive

[Tegajinn]

I agree the Hek nerf was too much.  It's went from being an excellent choice to painfully average.  It shouldn't be used to snipe but it shouldn't do such a small amount of damage at medium range either.  My Boltor is a better weapon now :/

 

If you have to nerf something, nerf insmaller increments.

[Lifeshield]

 

If they keep nerfing every weapon then...

 

 

I think all the complaining about weapon nerfing is ridiculous, but this just made my day, haha.

[Zetsu]

Hmm I dont get the damage fall-off for shotguns. Can someone enlighten me?

 

[Bakim0n0]

Who is talking about damage?

Someone said shotguns / the Hek was nerfed to uselessness / being average; I said they weren't they were just moved to being close range weapons, like shotguns are in most games and then I was accused on not having tested them since they can barely kill anything.

[Gezus]

"Sniping shotgun" - bug. It's still best for major demage, but only at close range, like it should be.

Use not only 1 weapon. Different weapons for different missions. No more "Hek only everywhere".

Yea the sniping ability with Hek was dumb, but being only close range is also dumb and NOT how it should be. It has a tight spread and should be good at mid range. The description of the weapon specifically says it is great at mid range because of its tighter spread. The Hek was (other than being able to snipe people) a good representation of a real shotgun. I loved my Hek but I used multiple other primary guns that were also really good. Those that only used it were just taking advantage of its OPness before an inevitable nerf. The Hek was OP and needed a fix, but this is not a good fix. As beta testers we should point this S#&$ out so things can be properly balanced. We should not say something is a good fix just to spite other people who loved using it.

[Bakim0n0]

I've *repeatedly* tested it and shotguns still work just fine; you just can't snipe with them anymore. Getting many downvotes for pointing this out and not jumping on the bandwagon about how horrible the nerf was.

If people would spend as much energy actually testing as they would spewing negativity they would likely understand the changes aren't nearly as drastic as people are making it out to be; you just have to close range to within 15m

Edited April 27, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Bakim0n0]

This may come as a shock, but I didn't immediately jump on the forums and join in with the complaints about the shotgun changes despite having the exact same initial reaction.

What did I do?

Strapped on my Hek and went and ran missions. With a bit of adjustment I went back to breezing through content with it just like before, and I barely notice a difference; then after having tested it for 5-6 hours of play I decided to finally comment.

Watch this post get 5+ downvotes as well.

[MilesCadre]

I've *repeatedly* tested it and shotguns still work just fine; you just can't snipe with them anymore. Getting many downvotes for pointing this out and not jumping on the bandwagon about how horrible the nerf was.

If people would spend as much energy actually testing as they would spewing negativity they would likely understand the changes aren't nearly as drastic as people are making it out to be; you just have to close range to within 15m

The problem is shotguns shouldnt be restricted to 15m. Especially Hek, due to the fact that Hek is a medium range shotgun and 15m isnt medium range.

 

If people complained about the damage dropoff being at 35m, I'd be on your side. But when I can only do 1-3 damage to a enemy 4 lockers away (better measurement method, no?) using my unmodded level 12 Hek, I think something is borked.

 

Same goes for my Gorgon, I cant reliably hit a target more than 6 lockers away, whether I aim in, crouch, single shot, or spray. Its incredibly frustrating.

[bakaxy]

I have the same results with a modded Hek, I don't see how this gun is now as they call useless. You just can't do it in long range as before.

Let me guess, you don't understand what it means that the dmg drops off with distance and you stood right next to an enemy when you "tested" it?

Because if you'd try out different distances you would see that the dmg drops off rapidly after 10m until it reaches 1 dmg....and let's be honest, 10m isn't far away, it's not even medium range.

Edited April 27, 2013 by bakaxy

[Leyden]

This may come as a shock, but I didn't immediately jump on the forums and join in with the complaints about the shotgun changes despite having the exact same initial reaction.

What did I do?

Strapped on my Hek and went and ran missions. With a bit of adjustment I went back to breezing through content with it just like before, and I barely notice a difference; then after having tested it for 5-6 hours of play I decided to finally comment.

Watch this post get 5+ downvotes as well.

 

i did them same for my gorgon and at the end i was still dispointed 

Edited April 27, 2013 by Leyden

[Bakim0n0]

The problem is shotguns shouldnt be restricted to 15m. Especially Hek, due to the fact that Hek is a medium range shotgun and 15m isnt medium range.

 

If people complained about the damage dropoff being at 35m, I'd be on your side. But when I can only do 1-3 damage to a enemy 4 lockers away (better measurement method, no?) using my unmodded level 12 Hek, I think something is borked.

 

Same goes for my Gorgon, I cant reliably hit a target more than 6 lockers away, whether I aim in, crouch, single shot, or spray. Its incredibly frustrating.

I'm 1 shotting level 35+ stuff at "4 lockers away" with my level 30 modded Hek. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I didn't put on a low level unmodded weapon and make judgements, I ran 30+ missions with it and gauged how the changes effected the gun and *then* commented.

[Izonami]

The shotgun nerf was overdone, though they aren't useless. They just suffer from rather painful range which would be fixed by doubling the 'fall off' distance. Also the reason some people are complaining is mainly because they've been playing awhile and they want new high-tier weapons/content. While low-tier weapons and mid-tier planets (Europa, etc) are nice for those just joining the game, they add very little in the way for 'veterans' of the game.

 

In addition enemies need to be redone on a one on one basis so they have inherent strengths and weaknesses against certain weapon comps/Warframes. Having different armor levels is a nice start but there really needs to be more things that force you to change your weapons up a bit (or at the very least have a reason to use more than just your primary).

 

Basically, to make it the simple the issue is this: Once you've gotten a reasonable weapon load-out and your mods are of an average (or better) level, you can basically breeze through any mission using one weapon. Sure you could switch 'for fun' but you don't need to and often it just makes things take longer. Also as others have said, right now Mastery Rank means jack if the things it unlocks are equal/inferior to stuff from the lower tiers.

[CaligoIllioneus]

I've *repeatedly* tested it and shotguns still work just fine; you just can't snipe with them anymore. Getting many downvotes for pointing this out and not jumping on the bandwagon about how horrible the nerf was.

If people would spend as much energy actually testing as they would spewing negativity they would likely understand the changes aren't nearly as drastic as people are making it out to be; you just have to close range to within 15m

 

One can breeze through content with the weakest weapon ever because this game is not particularly challenging. This isn't indicative of anything. The problem was not that they nerfed shotguns, it's that such a strict damage falloff is not a good mechanic. You can't know for sure where it starts, and it makes you use shotguns only at a very short range in order to achieve 100% effectiveness. Shotguns, or at least the Hek, are supposed to be for medium range as well. Hell it's written in the item's description, even.

 

Restricting shotguns to 15m is not a good idea.

 

Also if you stay at strict 15m, you will most likely feel the falloff if the enemy dares move: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/35669-heks-falloff-tested-description-change-necessary/

[Hatr]

This may come as a shock, but I didn't immediately jump on the forums and join in with the complaints about the shotgun changes despite having the exact same initial reaction.

What did I do?

Strapped on my Hek and went and ran missions. With a bit of adjustment I went back to breezing through content with it just like before, and I barely notice a difference; then after having tested it for 5-6 hours of play I decided to finally comment.

Watch this post get 5+ downvotes as well.

Yeah no difference, the shotguns transform in toys on higher range, their bullets are becoming chocolate whille traveling in the air and when they reach 20m distance they hit like it was nothing

[Bakim0n0]

 

i did them same and at the end i was still dispointed 

I am not commenting on the gorgon, I'm commenting on the shotguns; namely the Hek.

I think the accuracy of the gorgon was over-nerfed, especially for the initial burst / wind up phase but I have only run 1-2 missions with it so I can't really comment on how it's really changed the gameplay.

[Bloodywing]

I've *repeatedly* tested it and shotguns still work just fine; you just can't snipe with them anymore. Getting many downvotes for pointing this out and not jumping on the bandwagon about how horrible the nerf was.

If people would spend as much energy actually testing as they would spewing negativity they would likely understand the changes aren't nearly as drastic as people are making it out to be; you just have to close range to within 15m

I agree with you totally about the shotgun issue. But everyone is entitled to their opinion me thinks. Maybe reduce the damage fall-off penalty a bit? So that it won't be too "OP" as before and make other people happy that it's not as "useless". I have faith in DE to make the fair decision.

 

Now... where is that Glaive alert? ;) 

[CaligoIllioneus]

To further elaborate, Bakim0n0, you're testing the weapon against normal enemies. These enemies are extremely weak and die from anything. Bosses in this game, however, are bullet sponges, as you know. So DPS is really important. Doing bosses right now is dancing with an invisible, ridiculous damage falloff area which drastically alters the damage you do if you cross it. If the shotgun range was reduced by increasing pellet spread, you would at least be able to tell when you're not doing the full damage, and judge the distance better. Damage falloff makes it an exercise in frustration, as the boss moving a certain way can suddenly make you do low damage despite all your pellets hitting the target, which is nonsense.

Edited April 27, 2013 by CaligoIllioneus

[Bakim0n0]

One can breeze through content with the weakest weapon ever because this game is not particularly challenging. This isn't indicative of anything. The problem was not that they nerfed shotguns, it's that such a strict damage falloff is not a good mechanic. You can't know for sure where it starts, and it makes you use shotguns only at a very short range in order to achieve 100% effectiveness. Shotguns, or at least the Hek, are supposed to be for medium range as well. Hell it's written in the item's description, even.

 

Restricting shotguns to 15m is not a good idea.

 

Also if you stay at strict 15m, you will most likely feel the falloff if the enemy dares move: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/35669-heks-falloff-tested-description-change-necessary/

If the content is so easy and not challenging then what is all the complaints of shotguns doing no damage about? Why is this thread 45 pages long with 800+ comments? Why is it that every time I make a comment about *actually using* the shotguns I get a minimum of 4-5 downvotes?

I'm not disagreeing that the range is a bit too tight, but that's why they have us test things to tweak and balance. Instead of people testing it and giving real feedback they are sitting on the forum, overblowing the differences and spamming downvotes on anyone giving reasonable feedback.

I never once said anything about the restrictiveness of the range being overdone; I simply commented that the changes are not even remotely game breaking and easily compensated for. And again, I will likely get 5+ downvotes for saying this.

[MilesCadre]

 

i did them same and at the end i was still dispointed 

Love that pic XD should add a hek next to it

 

I'm 1 shotting level 35+ stuff at "4 lockers away" with my level 30 modded Hek. I'm not sure what you're getting at.

I didn't put on a low level unmodded weapon and make judgements, I ran 30+ missions with it and gauged how the changes effected the gun and *then* commented.

You didnt read my post, did ya? Level 12 Unmodded Hek. 4 lockers is what, 10m or so? I've been usin hek for a while now, and I take the mods off to see how the weapon performs. Almost any weapon can be made to do decent damage if you slap 6-8 damage modifiers on it. Look at Grakata or Vipers.

 

There shouldnt be a damage drop off at 15m thats my point. 35? I can live with it. 50m is where it should be around imo.

 

The shotgun nerf was overdone, though they aren't useless. They just suffer from rather painful range which would be fixed by doubling the 'fall off' distance. Also the reason some people are complaining is mainly because they've been playing awhile and they want new high-tier weapons/content. While low-tier weapons and mid-tier planets (Europa, etc) are nice for those just joining the game, they add very little in the way for 'veterans' of the game.

 

In addition enemies need to be redone on a one on one basis so they have inherent strengths and weaknesses against certain weapon comps/Warframes. Having different armor levels is a nice start but there really needs to be more things that force you to change your weapons up a bit (or at the very least have a reason to use more than just your primary).

 

Basically, to make it the simple the issue is this: Once you've gotten a reasonable weapon load-out and your mods are of an average (or better) level, you can basically breeze through any mission using one weapon. Sure you could switch 'for fun' but you don't need to and often it just makes things take longer. Also as others have said, right now Mastery Rank means jack if the things it unlocks are equal/inferior to stuff from the lower tiers.

Personally I'm one who likes variety. when I hit 30 on a weapon, I switch to a new one. When my frame hits 30, I get another. my favorite combo is Boltor, akbolto, Dual Ethers, and Volt. But thats not all I play, I have a 27 excalibur prime, 30 frost, 8 mag, and 9 ember. Variety is the spice of life.

 

Though its hard ot enjoy when you cant progress through weapons without burning so much time due to poor values. What set me off personally is Gorgon's nerf, because I persoanlly hate shotguns. Doesnt mean, however, I should have a biased view against shotguns, which is why I'll keep my stance at "They did it too hard."

 

One can breeze through content with the weakest weapon ever because this game is not particularly challenging. This isn't indicative of anything. The problem was not that they nerfed shotguns, it's that such a strict damage falloff is not a good mechanic. You can't know for sure where it starts, and it makes you use shotguns only at a very short range in order to achieve 100% effectiveness. Shotguns, or at least the Hek, are supposed to be for medium range as well. Hell it's written in the item's description, even.

 

Restricting shotguns to 15m is not a good idea.

 

Also if you stay at strict 15m, you will most likely feel the falloff if the enemy dares move: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/35669-heks-falloff-tested-description-change-necessary/

I agree, but I feel the progression is so fast due to the fact that we only have 2 tile sets. Not because of poorly balanced weapons or gear.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MilesCadre

[Bakim0n0]

To further elaborate, Bakim0n0, you're testing the weapon against normal enemies. These enemies are extremely weak and die from anything. Bosses in this game, however, are bullet sponges, as you know. So DPS is really important. Doing bosses right now is dancing with an invisible, ridiculous damage falloff area which drastically alters the damage you do if you cross it. If the shotgun range was reduced by increasing pellet spread, you would at least be able to tell when you're not doing the full damage, and judge the distance better. Damage falloff makes it an exercise in frustration, as the boss moving a certain way can suddenly make you do low damage despite all your pellets hitting the target, which is nonsense.

You really think that in 5-6 hours of testing it never occured to me to test it on bosses? It takes some compensation and there is a learning curve, but I was downing bosses no problems after an adjustment period.

[Enlil]

Tenno reinforcements, yea wright! Hek and Gorgon are useless.

[Bloodywing]

Let me guess, you don't understand what it means that the dmg drops off with distance and you stood right next to an enemy when you "tested" it?

Because if you'd try out different distances you would see that the dmg drops off rapidly after 10m until it reaches 1 dmg....and let's be honest, 10m isn't far away, it's not even medium range.

Don't try to be smart, every one knows what damage drop-off is. Lets just say the shotguns are "useless" snipers and they are still "effective" in close-mid range. Is that better?

[Gezus]

The shotgun nerf was expected, we knew it was gonna come sooner or later. I've been using the Hek since the early CBs and I'm about 200 hrs playtime and I'm fine with this nerf. Shotguns are not supposed to be used as snipers, it does not say that in the description. Having better accuracy does not mean they are snipers. That just means that pellets are concentrated in closer range meaning most if not all will hit your target and will deal massive damage(close range) compared to others that have a wider spread. With that said, wider spread is useful against hordes of enemies like infected, etc.

My 2 cents.

The Hek's description specifically says mid-range. I agree it shouldn't do long range sniping, that was the OPness of the Hek that needed fixing. Making it a close range only shotgun(where two other shotguns already exist for that; 3 if you count the bronco pistol/shotgun) is lame. It has a tight spread for better range. Nowhere in the description does it say the Hek has a tight spread for better close range, it says it's for mid-range use.

[MilesCadre]

Don't try to be smart, every one knows what damage drop-off is. Lets just say the shotguns are "useless" snipers and they are still "effective" in close-mid range. Is that better?

Define "Mid range".

[Bakim0n0]

Love that pic XD

 

You didnt read my post, did ya? Level 12 Unmodded Hek. 4 lockers is what, 10m or so? I've been usin hek for a while now, and I take the mods off to see how the weapon performs. Almost any weapon can be made to do decent damage if you slap 6-8 damage modifiers on it. Look at Grakata or Vipers.

 

There shouldnt be a damage drop off at 15m thats my point. 35? I can live with it. 50m is where it should be around imo.

Hate to break it to you, but testing a hek to level 12 is not using it "for awhile now" and how items scale with mods is extremely important for viability. But again, I was never commenting on the appropriate drop-off range I was commenting on how shotguns are still viable with adjustment and not the end of the world people are painting it to be.

Boar and Strun are fine at 15, maybe 20m and Hek should be increased to about 30 and that seems to feel about right; but again *this is the point of having us test patches*