Update 7.9.0: The Glaive

[MilesCadre]

Hate to break it to you, but testing a hek to level 12 is not using it "for awhile now" and how items scale with mods is extremely important for viability. But again, I was never commenting on the appropriate drop-off range I was commenting on how shotguns are still viable with adjustment and not the end of the world people are painting it to be.

Boar and Strun are fine at 15, maybe 20m and Hek should be increased to about 30 and that seems to feel about right; but again *this is the point of having us test patches*

I gave my opinion on how shotguns need to be rebalanced in this topic, let me quote myself...

 

 

Shotguns. Oh boy shotguns. This is the huge debate of the century, isnt it? "Shotguns should be Short Range burst weapons!" "But IRL Shotguns are accurate up to 100+M!" This is where we need to break from both reality and generic mindsets and have Warframe set the new standard on how shotguns should be implemented in games. Not as 100+M Snipers (Like Hek), or ohk weapons at 50+m, but as reasonably accurate weapons with reasonable range.

Personally, I think Boar should have a damage drop off beginning at 35m, and it be a sharp damage drop off. The higher RoF compensates for the lower damage and shorter range, and would reenforce boar's initial role of being Crowd Control.

Strun should have a 45-50m range with a sharp damage falloff, and a wide spread at 50+m. This reenforces Struns nice "In The Middle" philosophy, and will allow strun to take on more roles as a primary weapon.

Hek is the interesting one. The description for Hek reads; "The HEK is a powerful shotgun that fires its shots with a tight spread, making it efficient at medium range as long as its strong recoil is properly managed". That being said, I feel the effective range should be 60-70m, but maintaining the tightest spread of all 3 shotguns, to reinforce the role hek was made for; Medium Range. Also, Like the other 2, Hek should have a sharp damage drop off after said range.

Now why the sharp damage dropoff? Partially because youre firing small pellets with low mass which lose their velocity rapidly. As we all know; MxV^2="Damage" (Mass x Velocity^2) So after said range, the pellets will have lost so much energy (Or damage if you prefer), that they just dont carry on much further.

I think thats pretty self explainitory.

 

Also, as far as only being level 12, my affinity booster ran out and on top of that I've been running mercury and venus with a friend to get him leveled up. Sure, if I ran it on pluto I'd have it 20-30 by now.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MilesCadre

[Bakim0n0]

As a firearm enthusiast IRL, short of putting slugs in your shotgun you are not going to see effective ranges of 100+ m, most loads are only going to be generally effective to 35-40 yards (essentially the same mesurement in meters)

5 mercury runs will get a weapon from rank 1 to rank 9 without an affinity booster.

I'm rounding 200 hours in this game now and I feel confident saying that I'm fairly experienced... when I started testing my Hek it was about level 19 and I brought it up to 30.

[bakaxy]

Don't try to be smart, every one knows what damage drop-off is. Lets just say the shotguns are "useless" snipers and they are still "effective" in close-mid range. Is that better?

 

So mid range is 10m for you?

 

I think we need to limit Boar and Strun to say 5m in this case, because the Hek is advertised as mid range weapon.

 

edit: btw drop-off in dmg after such a short distance is a bad way of adjusting a weapon...

Edited April 27, 2013 by bakaxy

[Leyden]

I am not commenting on the gorgon, I'm commenting on the shotguns; namely the Hek.

I think the accuracy of the gorgon was over-nerfed, especially for the initial burst / wind up phase but I have only run 1-2 missions with it so I can't really comment on how it's really changed the gameplay.

oh ,ok , well my first messages was confusing, i edited it but too late. Miles i didn't add the Heck on the picture because i'v never even tested it and i certainly wont now ><.

[MilesCadre]

As a firearm enthusiast IRL, short of putting slugs in your shotgun you are not going to see effective ranges of 100+ m, most loads are only going to be generally effective to 35-40 yards (essentially the same mesurement in meters)

5 mercury runs will get a weapon from rank 1 to rank 9 without an affinity booster.

I'm rounding 200 hours in this game now and I feel confident saying that I'm fairly experienced... when I started testing my Hek it was about level 19 and I brought it up to 30.

Explain why I can hit a target 100 yards away with 00 buck Magnums in my 500A? I can get a 6" grouping at 100m on my 20 gauge mossberg if I adjust the choke right, and thats using birdshot.

 

BUT, the real question isnt accuracy, but rather, whats the VELOCITY of those pellets when they hit the target at said range? I'll tell ya now the birdshot wont do anything. But what about the 00 buck?

 

Shotguns are alot more accurate. come on down to Ohio and you'll learn that fast =)

 

And dont get me started on HMG, I have a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 and I can take the wings off a fly at 100m thanks to its heavy barrel. Beautiful rifle. So if you put a Ma Deuce (or a M2 browning if you prefer) in semi automatic, why cant a HMG have accurate fire up to 100+m? Infact, isnt a M2's effective range under burst fire up to 200 yards?

 

Course thats all RL comparisons. And getting WAY off topic.

 

Shotguns need a range buff, but just slightly. And gorgon needs to go back to how it was.

 

my 2 cents.

 

EDIT:

 

 

oh ,ok , well my first messages was confusing, i edited it but too late. Miles i didn't add the Heck on the picture because i'v never even tested it and i certainly wont now ><.

Could ya do it for me tho? =P

Edited April 27, 2013 by MilesCadre

[wqnmlb]

Bad update.

no one cares about that new melee weapon. Now they just ruined the shotgun class.

I think I would miss this game…

[Bloodywing]

So mid range is 10m for you?

 

I think we need to limit Boar and Strun to say 5m in this case, because the Hek is advertised as mid range weapon.

 

edit: btw drop-off in dmg after a certain distance is such a bad way of adjusting a weapon...

I would say up to 14m is it's effective range. If you notice on my previous post I said "effective" and not "OP" as it used to be. But all I'm saying is that it's far from useless as everyone is claiming it to be and not game breaking(for Hek users anyway). I should have explained it more clearer, that was a mistake on my part.

[MilesCadre]

Kinda off topic-ish, but anyone else wonder how long forum mods will let this topic keep going on before either alerting developers or shutting it down? Just curious myself =)

[JBurke]

Well this killed the Hek and virtually every shotgun since it barely even does mid-range now... good job?

[MilesCadre]

Well this killed the Hek and virtually every shotgun since it barely even does mid-range now... good job?

Dont forget Gorgon not being able to hit the broad side of a mining machine at 30m!

 

EDIT: and yea, thats a exaggeration on how bad gorgon is now =P but it still is pretty inaccurate. a AK with a barel in a S shape would be more accurate than a gorgon...

Edited April 27, 2013 by MilesCadre

[Bloodywing]

Kinda off topic-ish, but anyone else wonder how long forum mods will let this topic keep going on before either alerting developers or shutting it down? Just curious myself =)

It's the weekend, they will most probably be around on Monday to put out the fire, but they have done some weekend updates before if I'm not mistaken. Who knows maybe DE_Steve is reading the posts right now, might take awhile since its now 46 pages long.

[MilesCadre]

It's the weekend, they will most probably be around on Monday to put out the fire, but they have done some weekend updates before if I'm not mistaken. Who knows maybe DE_Steve is reading the posts right now, might take awhile since its now 46 pages long.

should we make a TL;DR post for him then? :D

[wqnmlb]

I would say up to 14m is it's effective range. If you notice on my previous post I said "effective" and not "OP" as it used to be. But all I'm saying is that it's far from useless as everyone is claiming it to be and not game breaking(for Hek users anyway). I should have explained it more clearer, that was a mistake on my part.

No offense, but I think it is useless now. This game has many spell- like skills, most aggressive skills works in that range( 20m) and basiclly, the shotgun and skills are both comsuming type(one comsumes energy and the other one comsumes bullet).So what is the point of shotgun while I have something really similar function which has much better efficiency?

[Bakim0n0]

Explain why I can hit a target 100 yards away with 00 buck Magnums in my 500A? I can get a 6" grouping at 100m on my 20 gauge mossberg if I adjust the choke right, and thats using birdshot.

 

BUT, the real question isnt accuracy, but rather, whats the VELOCITY of those pellets when they hit the target at said range? I'll tell ya now the birdshot wont do anything. But what about the 00 buck?

 

Shotguns are alot more accurate. come on down to Ohio and you'll learn that fast =)

 

And dont get me started on HMG, I have a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 and I can take the wings off a fly at 100m thanks to its heavy barrel. Beautiful rifle. So if you put a Ma Deuce (or a M2 browning if you prefer) in semi automatic, why cant a HMG have accurate fire up to 100+m? Infact, isnt a M2's effective range under burst fire up to 200 yards?

 

Course thats all RL comparisons. And getting WAY off topic.

 

Shotguns need a range buff, but just slightly. And gorgon needs to go back to how it was.

 

my 2 cents.

 

EDIT:

 

 

Could ya do it for me tho? =P

I previously stated that they need a range buff... also I wasn't aware that Ohio was somehow more of a gun heavy state than VA. ;)

[Genkaro]

Maybe I should try and repeat what I (and some other people) said before. Many don't whine because Hek and Gorgon got nerfed. At least in Hek's case, it deserved nerf. It was the most effective weapon in the majority of situations and distances. Do remember, that most of the game is spent in tight corridors and small rooms, and few open spaces still weren't big enough to make Hek useless before Update.

 

Now, do remember other thing, we have a few weapons to consider:

1) Gorgon is supposed to be used as low-mid range automatic rifle, with sharp drop off in accuracy when spunned. Its primary role is supposed to be mowing down packs of advancing enemies. But it is expected to have some decent accuracy when firing semi-auto. The damage would be severely lower than, say, Boltor, but in low range only there are already other types of weapons that are used - full auto pistols and shotguns. Now that gorgon struggles to hit even half of it's shots anywhere at the enemy on distances around 25m when fired semi-auto (yes, I checked it) it means that gorgon is a competing solely versus full auto pistols and shotguns. And, in my opinion, it now loses without any chances. Shotguns such as Strun and Boar provide superior cleaning potential up close and personal, while pistols have much more manageable accuracy, no need for waiting of spinning and more powerfull mods (even after buffs to rifle mods). I do believe that at least rank 3 requirement is all but useless for this gun now, because now there is no niche where it outperforms its competetors.

2) Hek is a shotgun specifically designed to be used low-mid range. And I'm not talking about its description only. Remember, there is Strun, that is available far early than Hek. It has practically same damage, more fire rate, slightly bigger magazine, slightly longer reload. But, most importantly - it has polarity, and Bar polarity on top of that, one of the best in the game. Now, what has Hek, which requires rank 4 I might add, over it? Well, it HAD tighter spread. Killing things up close? Strun did it better, only if because of polarity, allowing some additional mods to be installed. But mid range Strun had problems because of spread. That's where Hek shined. But now, with sharp decrease in damage in distances, this nerf effectively made Hek useless when compared to Strun. Tighter spread means absolutely nothing if damage is still drastically lowered by new change. Which means Hek right now is just an underperforming weaker version of Strun. It is worse up close at least because of the tight spread making you waste more shots when dealing with big mob under your nose. Did I say about Polarity too? I think twice actually.

 

Now, let me say again - I'm sure that Hek needed to be nerfed. Not just "buff every other weapon", though many do need that (most of the Melee obtainable through Alerts for example), Hek was too powerfull on it's own just because game situations rarely imply distances over 40-50 meters. BUT! Right now Hek is underperfoming variation of Strun, which is cheaper, which is obtainable earlier, which is friendlier on lower levels (polarity gives much more damage before 30 level and catalyst, though after too). So, what is the role of Hek now? Why does it require rank 4? Crafting?

Same with gorgon. I do believe that some changes could be made to semi-auto firing, though at the same time I believe it never could compare to, say, Latron or Boltor when used in such a way. But this change planted basically in the same range as, say, shotguns and Afuris, for example. Which can quite easily outperfom it in many cases. So again, what is a justifiable reason for it to have rank 3 requirement now?

Edited April 27, 2013 by Genkaro

[PlusEighteen]

The shotgun nerf was overdone, though they aren't useless. They just suffer from rather painful range which would be fixed by doubling the 'fall off' distance. Also the reason some people are complaining is mainly because they've been playing awhile and they want new high-tier weapons/content. While low-tier weapons and mid-tier planets (Europa, etc) are nice for those just joining the game, they add very little in the way for 'veterans' of the game.

 

In addition enemies need to be redone on a one on one basis so they have inherent strengths and weaknesses against certain weapon comps/Warframes. Having different armor levels is a nice start but there really needs to be more things that force you to change your weapons up a bit (or at the very least have a reason to use more than just your primary).

 

Basically, to make it the simple the issue is this: Once you've gotten a reasonable weapon load-out and your mods are of an average (or better) level, you can basically breeze through any mission using one weapon. Sure you could switch 'for fun' but you don't need to and often it just makes things take longer. Also as others have said, right now Mastery Rank means jack if the things it unlocks are equal/inferior to stuff from the lower tiers.

The problem is DE isn't patching for the old players, they're adding content for new blood to rope them in

Older players already have everything they could want so they aren't going to spend money on plat

 

Plus it doesn't take very long to get into the high levels from start if you have any sort of shooter skill

It's been suggested before but it would be nice if there was a 'hard mode' we could enable that would like, halve our shields and health and make more mobs spawn or something for increased EXP and credit rewards

Gotta stress that making enemies have more health =/= difficulty, a shotgun to the unprotected face should be a kill pretty much no matter what

[Leyden]

 

EDIT:

 

 

Could ya do it for me tho? =P

 

 

 

 

here you go 

Edited April 27, 2013 by Leyden

[MilesCadre]

I previously stated that they need a range buff... also I wasn't aware that Ohio was somehow more of a gun heavy state than VA. ;)

they are when it comes to shotguns.

 

Just avoid kentucky, they use bazookas to go deer huntin there. Personally I prefer flamethrowers, that way I barbeque the sucker while huntin him!

 

In all honesty though, I think 9.9/10 people (sorry jimmy, we're ripping you into tenths) agree that Shotguns and Gorgon are borked after this patch, and I'm almost positive that everoyne would be happy to see them fixed. Theres the TL;DR post, and a nice sum up of all 46 pages =)

[Bakim0n0]

Also note Miles... how much penetration do you reckon you get at 100m? Enough to punch through armor plating?

[MilesCadre]

here you go 

:DDDDDDDD!

 

Thank you! Gonna hang onto this as a grim reminder of the 7.9.0 patch ^^

[Hatr]

Dont forget Gorgon not being able to hit the broad side of a mining machine at 30m!

 

EDIT: and yea, thats a exaggeration on how bad gorgon is now =P but it still is pretty inaccurate. a AK with a barel in a S shape would be more accurate than a gorgon...

True true :D nice way to put it 

[MilesCadre]

Also note Miles... how much penetration do you reckon you get at 100m? Enough to punch through armor plating?

Well, to repeat myself; Birdshot wouldnt do anything at 100m. Buckshot probably would do minimal damage at 70m (which falls in line with my first solution reply back about 20 or so pages)

 

That being said, I think we all can feel comfy saying buckshot should be effective around 60 or so m.

[Bakim0n0]

But to circle back to the topic at hand...

I never once said they weren't hit a bit too hard with the nerf; I was directly responding to the people claiming *shotguns were now >>USELESS<<* because they aren't.

In need of tweaking? Yes, but they are still *very potent* with adjustment.

That was my entire point from word go.

[Bloodywing]

No offense, but I think it is useless now. This game has many spell- like skills, most aggressive skills works in that range( 20m) and basiclly, the shotgun and skills are both comsuming type(one comsumes energy and the other one comsumes bullet).So what is the point of shotgun while I have something really similar function which has much better efficiency?

That's the beauty of this game and why it shines over the other F2P shooters that are out there. If you have an ability that is more effective at 20m range by all means, use it! If they come closer shoot them in the face(or foot if Infected) and if they get even closer in melee range, bash their heads in with your Brokk. It depends on your playstyle bro, it is not limited to a certain style of play. 

 

I personally love Banshee as I maxed all Ability range, effectiveness and damage. I use my Ulti most times and I've done coop games without firing a bullet and just use Brokk and Ulti. Yeah, I'm weird like that.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Bloodywing

[Bakim0n0]

Well, to repeat myself; Birdshot wouldnt do anything at 100m. Buckshot probably would do minimal damage at 70m (which falls in line with my first solution reply back about 20 or so pages)

 

That being said, I think we all can feel comfy saying buckshot should be effective around 60 or so m.

But you gotta admit, we're not talking about targets or even game... these are relatively armored and or tough targets.

When I was talking about effective range I more meant still packing a punch not accuracy... there isn't an accuracy fall off at 15m, there is a damage fall off.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Bakim0n0