Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[Panzermeido]

Sorry to say: But that is called balancing.

 

If you think of a Shotgun you think of a high burst low range weapon.

 

It also was terrible OP.

That's what you think of a shotgun in CoD. IRL a shotgun is accurate at 100+ meters.

[MilesCadre]

Sorry to say: But that is called balancing.

 

If you think of a Shotgun you think of a high burst low range weapon.

 

It also was terrible OP.

Not true. I can hit a target 200 ft away (thats around 70+m) accurately with 00 Buck usin my Mossberg 500A shotgun.

 

a BLUNDERBUSS may only be close range burst guns, but a strun/boar should have a effective range of 40-50m imo and Hek should see 60-70m.

 

And to the guy who said somethin bout drop off after 10m being ridiculous, I agree. Dropping off damage after 10m when oyur base may only be 4-8 damage per pellet is just bonkers. but this level of drop off after say 40-50m is more acceptable imo. Theres other ways to balance the extreme damages of shotguns too than drop their range.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The Hek needed a nerf, badly, in order to let it fall into line with other weapons.

 

- It has an astounding kill range, OHK farther than many rifles and pistols. I don't care if it was more realistic, it made all other weapons obsolete.

- OHK range made the Hek's ammunition economy nearly nonexistent. You didn't run out of ammo using a Hek unless you were deliberately trying to.

 

There wasn't much of a reason to use anything BUT a Hek until this patch. Granted, the range was a bit too harsh; the Hek does need to have a longer effective range than the Strun and Boar to make up for its spread. Right now, the tight spread's only benefit is being more of a 'precision' shotgun; Struns and Boars just spray pellet everywhere, while a Hek can focus its pellet spread on vital areas. But the Hek most certainly does not need to return back to the top of the weapon roster, I'd much rather it be a viable choose alongside other weapons rather than being the cream of the crop as it was.

[SaintLucifer]

Edit : Wrong forum.

Edited April 27, 2013 by SaintLucifer

[Panzermeido]

The Hek needed a nerf, badly, in order to let it fall into line with other weapons.

 

- It has an astounding kill range, OHK farther than many rifles and pistols. I don't care if it was more realistic, it made all other weapons obsolete.

- OHK range made the Hek's ammunition economy nearly nonexistent. You didn't run out of ammo using a Hek unless you were deliberately trying to.

 

There wasn't much of a reason to use anything BUT a Hek until this patch. Granted, the range was a bit too harsh; the Hek does need to have a longer effective range than the Strun and Boar to make up for its spread. Right now, the tight spread's only benefit is being more of a 'precision' shotgun; Struns and Boars just spray pellet everywhere, while a Hek can focus its pellet spread on vital areas. But the Hek most certainly does not need to return back to the top of the weapon roster, I'd much rather it be a viable choose alongside other weapons rather than being the cream of the crop as it was.

The problem wasn't that Hek was overpowered. The game lacked two things: powerful enough alternatives (Gorgon MK1? I dunno.) and level 60-70 missions which would be the turf of Hek and similar high-level weapons. What we actually got was fighting symptoms without addressing the real issue.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[PaperAlien]

So... it sounds like they went way overkill with the fall-off? Oh well. It's a good concept. I'm sure DE would tone it down if we brought it to their attention that it's too much right now.

[wkfire]

The problem wasn't that Hek was overpowered. The game lacked two things: powerful enough alternatives (Gorgon MK1? I dunno.) and level 60-70 missions which would be the turf of Hek and similar high-level weapons. What we actually got was fighting symptoms without addressing the real issue.

 

The thing is, lots of people will still use hek no matter where they are.. 

You can choose not to call it overpowered. But you cant deny that it is overused. 

[OxexRaclir]

I hope the dev's can man up and admit they were wrong and revert some of these awful weapon changes.

 

If not the weapon needs to be severely reduced in mastery costs as nothing about it now is worthy of being rank 4.

[iamLoveless]

The Hek needed a nerf, badly, in order to let it fall into line with other weapons.

 

- It has an astounding kill range, OHK farther than many rifles and pistols. I don't care if it was more realistic, it made all other weapons obsolete.

- OHK range made the Hek's ammunition economy nearly nonexistent. You didn't run out of ammo using a Hek unless you were deliberately trying to.

 

There wasn't much of a reason to use anything BUT a Hek until this patch. Granted, the range was a bit too harsh; the Hek does need to have a longer effective range than the Strun and Boar to make up for its spread. Right now, the tight spread's only benefit is being more of a 'precision' shotgun; Struns and Boars just spray pellet everywhere, while a Hek can focus its pellet spread on vital areas. But the Hek most certainly does not need to return back to the top of the weapon roster, I'd much rather it be a viable choose alongside other weapons rather than being the cream of the crop as it was.

Maybe the Hek could have used some tweaking, but simply rendering it useless is a lazy and unsatisfactory solution. Maybe instead of nerfing the only level 4 mastery weapon in the game, they could spend some time making other guns useful? Maybe give the Grakata a little bump in damage so players would use it, instead of shunning it as the pea shooter it is? Something other than nerfing would be a great change of pace, maybe buff the @(*()$ snipetron so players would feel more inclined to use a SNIPER to SNIPE.

[MiaovenWinter]

*sigh*

 

Come on, people. If you really and truly think that DE meant for the Hek (and the Gorgon) to be hit this hard, you're delusional. Coding for balance isn't a perfect science. You've gotta give them time to work things out.

[Panzermeido]

The thing is, lots of people will still use hek no matter where they are.. 

You can choose not to call it overpowered. But you cant deny that it is overused. 

It's overusage could be fought (again, it's a symptom, not an issue, but staying on the topic here) by making it mastery level 5. Again, if potent enough alternatives would be present, I'll be the first to buy a super-charged Latron Vandal or a Snipetron Grando. And I wouldn't be the only one, that's for sure.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[MilesCadre]

*sigh*

 

Come on, people. If you really and truly think that DE meant for the Hek (and the Gorgon) to be hit this hard, you're delusional. Coding for balance isn't a perfect science. You've gotta give them time to work things out.

+1.

 

They dont try to render weapons useless. We can just hope they listen to our feedback and adjust accordingly.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The problem wasn't that Hek was overpowered. The game lacked two things: powerful enough alternatives (Gorgon MK1? I dunno.) and level 60-70 missions which would be the turf of Hek and similar high-level weapons. What we actually got was fighting symptoms without addressing the real issue.

 

Maybe the Hek could have used some tweaking, but simply rendering it useless is a lazy and unsatisfactory solution. Maybe instead of nerfing the only level 4 mastery weapon in the game, they could spend some time making other guns useful? Maybe give the Grakata a little bump in damage so players would use it, instead of shunning it as the pea shooter it is? Something other than nerfing would be a great change of pace, maybe buff the @(*()$ snipetron so players would feel more inclined to use a SNIPER to SNIPE.

 

The whole Mastery 4 argument doesn't really hold water with me. Making the weapon, or any weapon, a Rank requirement is just a carrot-on-a-stick gesture. It's procedural progression, not outright upgrading. It isn't MEANT for weapons that were supposed more powerful than ones that were not Rank-Required; DE already stated that all current weapons (at least for the time being) should be sidegrades that fight player playstyles, not direct upgrades other than the starting MK1 Braton. The Hek was clearly a superior weapon to about every single other weapon in the game up until the patch. As such, it was balanced to pull it back into the rank and file.

 

All that said, though, I do think the effective range should be increased. But it should never go back to where it was, OHKing everything in your field of vision. That sort of damage should come at a risk; the Hek presented no risk whatsoever, with its huge range, fast innate firing rate and if-not-decent reload speed. Even the 4 round limit (bumped up to 6) wasn't a strict enough modifyer to keep it from being an overpowered weapon.

 

Funnily enough, the Grakata was buffed in this patch, if only slightly. However, even puffing all other weapons would not put it in like with what the Hek was. One hit kills, at huge distances. That's an effective kill time of diddly squat. It had stupendous ammo economy, it had enormous upfront damage. Buffing other weapons to reach the level that Hek was would ruin the game, unless the entire enemy system was retinkered to accommodate it.

Edited April 27, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[phr0zenx]

HEK is now that weapon nobody should bother to strive for mastery level to get. Didn't know it was this bad until i fired at the enemies that's standing 10 steps away from me and dealing less than 10 damage in total per shot, and that HEK is stacked to the max with a potato.

 

The effective range of HEK has become so useless that your melee is actually more effective around that range. Not sure if this weapon should require a high mastery level (4) to unlock anymore, now that it's a melee ranged boomstick that other shotguns are better.

 

Either that, or the developers who implemented the patches never did proper QA testing or SDLC (Basic S#&$) and rolled it out to the public to pray it works. 

 

Well, had a good run with HEK anyway (Lv 30 maxed), time to switch to a new weapon.

[MilesCadre]

HEK is now that weapon nobody should bother to strive for mastery level to get. Didn't know it was this bad until i fired at the enemies that's standing 10 steps away from me and dealing less than 10 damage in total per shot, and that HEK is stacked to the max with a potato.

 

The effective range of HEK has become so useless that your melee is actually more effective around that range. Not sure if this weapon should require a high mastery level (4) to unlock anymore, now that it's a melee ranged boomstick that other shotguns are better.

 

Either that, or the developers who implemented the patches never did proper QA testing or SDLC (Basic S#&$) and rolled it out to the public to pray it works. 

 

Well, had a good run with HEK anyway (Lv 30 maxed), time to switch to a new weapon.

I'd be willing to bet someone put a decimal in the wrong place when it comes to the shotgun issue. There is no way they would do a drastic change such as this on purpose.

 

Gorgon, probably misjudged the accuracy modifier too.

 

Chill, let DE digest the feedback, and come back in the morning to see if they fixed things up (or grab a different weapon in the mean time.)

[SaintLucifer]

*Watch everyone switch to Boltor and the devs nerf it too next week*

[EvieTheTenno]

The whole Mastery 4 argument doesn't really hold water with me. Making the weapon, or any weapon, a Rank requirement is just a carrot-on-a-stick gesture. It's procedural progression, not outright upgrading. It isn't MEANT for weapons that were supposed more powerful than ones that were not Rank-Required; DE already stated that all current weapons (at least for the time being) should be sidegrades that fight player playstyles, not direct upgrades other than the starting MK1 Braton. The Hek was clearly a superior weapon to about every single other weapon in the game up until the patch. As such, it was balanced to pull it back into the rank and file.

 

All that said, though, I do think the effective range should be increased. But it should never go back to where it was, OHKing everything in your field of vision. That sort of damage should come at a risk; the Hek presented no risk whatsoever, with its huge range, fast innate firing rate and if-not-decent reload speed. Even the 4 round limit (bumped up to 6) wasn't a strict enough modifyer to keep it from being an overpowered weapon.

 

Funnily enough, the Grakata was buffed in this patch, if only slightly. However, even puffing all other weapons would not put it in like with what the Hek was. One hit kills, at huge distances. That's an effective kill time of diddly squat. It had stupendous ammo economy, it had enormous upfront damage. Buffing other weapons to reach the level that Hek was would ruin the game, unless the entire enemy system was retinkered to accommodate it.

Well every weapon could one hit kill if givin the right mods, the latron, the braton, the burston. I mean the HEK was meant to be the semi-long range shotty which means high damage, low amount of rounds and pellet spread, even without bullet drop you're still not doing full damage on enemies anyway since not all pellets are sure to hit.

Edited April 27, 2013 by AresX905

[yakutstk]

was fun having shotties that behaved you know like shotties, now... its like every other shooter out there you have to shove the barrel down your enemies throat to do more damage then sneezing at them would, damage dropoff would be acceptable if it was at an acceptable range not this, definately needs some tuning on the numbers that or lable shotguns as melee weapons >.>

[Panzermeido]

Funnily enough, the Grakata was buffed in this patch, if only slightly. However, even puffing all other weapons would not put it in like with what the Hek was. One hit kills, at huge distances. That's an effective kill time of diddly squat. It had stupendous ammo economy, it had enormous upfront damage. Buffing other weapons to reach the level that Hek was would ruin the game, unless the entire enemy system was retinkered to accommodate it.

It won't. Hek was great. Overpowered to a large enough degree, yeah, but mostly because the maximal challenge you could face, defense missions not included, was Ambulas at level 56 IIRC. If you push it up to level 70 with bosses going as high as 76-78, the Hek instantly takes the niche of a high-level weapon you only receive at high rank and use to manage the challenge of higher-leveled missions.

Mind you, high rank actually means you took the time to use the weapons that come before Hek. I see no problems with Hek being an upgrade, because sidegrading in a game which is entirely based around DPS and and ammo consumption is impossible. Outright. Instead of making Hek the scapegoat, additional choice should be provided in the "upgrade-tier" category of weapons, which will make the high level battles more versatile and, ultimately, fun. 

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[Spooghetti]

Here's the core issue I have;

 

When the Shotguns are designed for melee quarters combat and your melee weapons are just as effective(If not better), you have eliminated their niche, their purpose no longer exists.

 

It needs to be an effective range weapon, most effective in melee, but at least effective at range as well.

[DeathPope]

have to tried doing a level 50 defense mission with any other weapon than then hek/gorgon/boltor ?  the hek still took 2-3 shots at close range to kill things at that level, now i have to stick my barrel into things to kill them, meaning i cant play any frame unless its tanky if i want to use my hek.

 

the only reason people are calling the hek OP is because they see them in level 10-30 areas just destroying things, but its a very different story at end game, im not saying that range wasnt broken.. but the nerf was to much, My melee weapon  has aoe and does more damage now.

[f3llyn]

Yes, it might be disappointing.

But bear in mind that the Devs talked about balancing weapons. If the Hek is so overpowered, the other weapons will be viewed upon as 'useless'. 

Furthermore, this change is realistic. Shotguns are supposed to be effective in short range, not long range. If not, what are the snipers for? You can rage all you want, but dont take it out on the Devs. 

 

P.S. I have a hek and its supercharged too. 

 

Because this game is totally based on reality, right?

[iamLoveless]

Because this game is totally based on reality, right?

Shotgun pellets don't turn into cotton candy after 10m, and maybe if the SNIPEtron didn't suck people would use it.

[EvieTheTenno]

I wonder when the devs are going to make a statement, rendering an entire class of weapons useless is kind of a big issue.


Also, shotguns need some sort of range, melee in this game is quite potent already, if they made shotguns only CQC, then there's no point to take up your long gun slot with one. With melee being more potent and ammo conserving, shotguns are rendered innefficient for anything other than comedic value.

The Strun had high damage but was balanced from its slow fire rate and long reload times as well as wide spread.

The BOAR was used for close range burst damage, but you had to reload every 2 secs anyway as well as having a wide spread.

The HEK was the longer range shotty with a relatively small spread, balanced by a smaller clip and less pellets.

People complained because they didn't realize the potential of the rifles as well. Instead of this giant shotty nerf, I'd say buff rifle mods to help give players more of a nudge to use them. Multishot and damage increasing by 15% instead of 20% per level really puts them at a giant disadvantage to shotties and pistols.

Edited April 27, 2013 by AresX905

[TennoSkoom]

in all seriousness. i disagree. The hek is my most used weapon in-game and my stats show it. It's my favorite primary- and I have to say the balance brought about by the change is fine. Sure you can't snipe with it anymore, but the damage falloff is not so high that it prevents the hek from being just as useful as it was before at a more sane mid-range. There were some other weapons whos balance was broken by this update (ie the akboltos vs the aklatos. there is now a much larger performance gap between the two- and i touched on a better solution for the problem that reduces this gap in a nother thread- so i'll leave it out of this one.)

 

The hek was balanced properly with this update, not broken.

 

That's my 2 cents.