Warframe - Punishing Players For Nothing.

[Zyxmax]

BP without argon: acquire, start up, by the time you log in next day its finished and you can use it.

 

BP with argon: acquire, play the void for about 10min, start up, by the time you log in next day its finished and you can use it.

 

Argon can only cause a problem if you are extremely busy, very very casual, or extremely unlucky. Majority of players are completely unaffected by it. You could argue that since the argon timer does nothing in most cases its a useless mechanic that should be thrown out and forgotten and you would be right. If players rushing content and complain the extra 10min it takes to get argon not gonna solve that.

 

As for kubrows i recently checked if they work or not and still nothing. They get stuck in the environment all the time, run in circles or stand still in the middle of combat, do nothing while im being killed, randomly run off to attack an enemy far away instead of the ones that attack me and so on. They are completely broken and they are broken since day one. If you have so little time to play that argon is a problem you shouldn't waste that time on kubrows.

 

As for the permadeath i think its more strange than punishing i mean digital pet mechanic wise the kubrows are extremely simplistic and casual and that's good because i hate that kind of stuff but you combine the simplicity with permadeath and its just weird. Kubrow mechanics are not deep enough for any kind of immersion so i don't understand what they are going for with permadeath even if i don't play i log in for daily so that cant be it.

[SIDESTRE4M]

That Kubrows can really die is more a funfact, because they don't die from bleeding out during a mission.

 

Or maybe an un-funfact.

[NDarkstar]

The reason argon crystals exist and decay is simple:

DE was tired of people coming to the forums after tenno reinforcement updates and going "Got a new weapon BP and built it within minutes of the update and there is nothing to do!"

So DE put in a resource that you *cant* stockpile, and if you want to build it you actually have to spend some time playing to be able to build the weapon.

You cant just buy the BP and immediately build it in the foundry.

It has nothing to do with punishing people who take breaks.

It simply exists so that we have a resource that we can't stockpile in massive amounts to instantly build everything.

That is the entire reason behind the decay timer.

And I think that it works quite well in that regard.

As for kubrow death:

That was explained ahead of time and is easy to avoid.

DE put it in for two main reasons:

1) A credit sink.

Honestly once you've been playing this game for a while you're soon sitting on millions of credits and absolutely nothing to spend them on.  And tons of people complaining that there are too many credits and no use for them.

So the Kubrow require DNA Stabilizers which act as a fairly decent credit sink to mid-level players.

Once you get in the void its 5 missions at the most though and you can buy another pack of stabilizers and they last you for a very long time.

2) To give players a reason to regularly log in.

Its actually been proven in quite a few games that buy giving the players something to take care of, like a pet, that it increases how often players log in and does actually increase player retention by a noticeable amount.

And I'm honestly not upset in the least by any of these.

1. Argon is still the biggest PITA for me because although I *own* my own guild, I did it to avoid politics and see what building one was like, I'm not giving it up, I don't have a massive friend list of people who spend even 20% of the week grinding out Warframe.

2. I have 341 hours in Warframe according to Steam. I don't have this mythical pile of massive cash laying around. What I DO have is a mastery wall I can't get through, despite having in excess of 50 weapons mastered, all basic sentinels, the Sunika kubrow, and 12 or 13 frames as well. What I DO have is a lot of unused blueprints that I may never be able to complete due to credit and resource requirements.

3. FUN keeps people logging in. Having to pay rent for my LOTRO house didn't keep me playing LOTRO when it stopped being fun. I know that all my crap is in escrow and frankly, I don't care. When a game stops being fun, no amount of "log in or loose it" will keep me logging back in. It seems to me to be nothing more than punitive.

 

I'm starting to hope DE will eventually make a single player version I can actually get through and enjoy because the game seems to be going in a direction that's moving further and further away from me. If it continues I won't be able to describe it as anything other than "Korean grindcore p2w" and suggest that people avoid it. Which is a shame, because I really enjoyed it at the start. It sure beats the hell out of Destiny and is different enough from the Borderlands series to hold my interest, despite TPS having just released new content.

 

@DE please consider a single-player version/series spin- off of Warframe, without the punitive measures and mastery gates. I understand that you're all gurus of the game you've made, but you're starting to scale  content vastly outside my reach, and look again, almost 350 hours invested in your product, cash as well, I can't keep up at this rate. Please stop punishing your player base because a few vocal elitists complete everything in the time it takes me to type this reply.

[Orbister]

You arent forced to do anything

 

For kubrows you have stasis

 

For argon most items dont take more than a few and keys are more than bountiful in recruit if not on your character

 

The amount of everlasting content that gets ignored for arguments like these however...well you know already

 

You can log in once a week and keep your kubrow alive without stasis

 

You can do 2 maybe 3 void missions and have a supply for 20 days to keep it alive

 

Its not nearly as bad as youre making it out to be

I'm not making it to be anything, those decisions are clearly designed to make people log in more often, that is clear, the problem is that a good game should be able to "seduce" people on it's own, not for "login rewards" or "not log in penalties" this isn't about decay or stasis, this is about design decisions, in my personal experience i like warframe and that's why i log in, i couldn't care less about kubrows or argon or login rewards, i don't need incentives to play more than the game itself, but if the game can't "seduce" people on it's own merits then there is a problem.

[Azawarau]

I'm not making it to be anything, those decisions are clearly designed to make people log in more often, that is clear, the problem is that a good game should be able to "seduce" people on it's own, not for "login rewards" or "not log in penalties" this isn't about decay or stasis, this is about design decisions, in my personal experience i like warframe and that's why i log in, i couldn't care less about kubrows or argon or login rewards, i don't need incentives to play more than the game itself, but if the game can't "seduce" people on it's own merits then there is a problem.

Apparently its working if people are logging in more because they have to

 

Thats in full sarcasm by the way

 

You really dont have to log in

Edited December 7, 2014 by Azawarau

[Orbister]

Apparently its working if people are logging in more because they have to

 

Thats in full sarcasm by the way

 

You really dont have to log in

you don't get it, do you?

 

I never said they force us to do anything, i'm just saying that is lame and sad that a game needs to entice people to play it by the use of rewards and penalties.

 

It's not the case in my personal experience i log when i want because i like it.

[Azawarau]

you don't get it, do you?

 

I never said they force us to do anything, i'm just saying that is lame and sad that a game needs to entice people to play it by the use of rewards and penalties.

 

It's not the case in my personal experience i log when i want because i like it.

 

 

it doesn't matter if you are more hardcore than others if others are casuals, the thing is that many design decisions are based around the idea of forcing people to log in, i think any game should be enough to keep people in because it's fun, because people want to play it, not because the game itself has tricks to force you to play, i play almost everyday, i don't mind Argon at all, but i do mind that design decisions are based around this idea: "hey how can we force people to log in everyday" i say, just make a good game... people will play it.

[Orbister]

 

ok you you got me there what i mean is that i don't feel forced, but it's clear that they intend to force players or at least STRONGLY encourage them, in my opinion that is sad, because i would prefer the game to stand on it's own merit.

[Azawarau]

ok you you got me there what i mean is that i don't feel forced, but it's clear that they intend to force players or at least STRONGLY encourage them, in my opinion that is sad, because i would prefer the game to stand on it's own merit.

I still feel like its not all that bad

 

Im near the point of taking a break from warframe and i dont think il be punished at all for being gone

[SIDESTRE4M]

Even if players log on, they don't neccessarily buy plat.

Playing the game does not pay DE. Buying platinum does.

 

Players won't simply login, play the game, buy more platinum, just to make sure that their kubrows don't die.

[Azawarau]

Even if players log on, they don't neccessarily buy plat.

Playing the game does not pay DE. Buying platinum does.

 

Players won't simply login, play the game, buy more platinum, just to make sure that their kubrows don't die.

I feel like people focus too much on the platinum/buisiness end and not enough on the gameplay end

 

I like the idea of having a pet i take care of

 

And that it can die if i dont

 

I wish there were more ways to interact with that pet to really drive this home

[bWild]

Kubrows are by far better then sentinels. It's absolutely ok that people have to care about them to keep them running. I would even go much further with the cost because they are too powerfull.

 

Argon: I think it is the same problem like the control units, which is naturally a rare ressource but everyone has like 5000+ of them and doesnt care about this ressource anymore. I think void runs are made so many times that this is the reason why they invented the decay. 

 

 

[CaptainohCaptain]

2. Warframe doesn't even comes CLOSE to what other F2P games do. Archeage

No offense, but presense of some terrible F2P games doesn't make much with warframe model being good. Also, there are quite some games with either consistent grind or lack of it with vanity items being the only thing to be prem currency exclusive.

Even then, good luck finding prize syndana while I'll enjoy the wub-wub-wub noises from sonic booms I won at event in MWO.

[DSpite]

The fact still remains that they are simply game mechanics to play through. I have never come across anything I can remember where I thought "they need to totally redo this". We even looked at Vay Hek as "something to do", not "why are they punishing us". In another game, the closest, latest thing I can think of was when in Payday 2 they put penalties for doing one mission over and over, because I ran the game solo all the time, but not Warframe.

 

When you have a handful of friends on the list, running Argon or running Vay Hek / Mesa is pretty fast when you pool resources and time.

 

It's not a matter of "like/dislike" it's the fact that it never even occurred to me that it was anything other then something to play out. If you approach everything as obstacles rather then play elements you will see a roadblock even where there really isn't any.

 

I still have not gotten some drops from Borderlands enemies even after farming them multiple times beyond the "recommended" number of runs needed, even though I have save editors and can just give myself the guns instantly anyway.

 

It's just something to attempt, the actual "getting it done" is just icing on the cake. No sane person makes 1000+ runs on a boss for a gun they can hack in seconds, unless the task itself is the defining issue, and the final result just a mental box to tick.

 

Once you have a handful of Frames and guns in this game, there is no content you can't unlock. If you see the next "unlocking" as a chore rather then a game task to complete, why even bother? Once you get that gun or that Frame, you will just find the next one a chore, and so on, and yet if given the chance to just have everything magically unlocked, a lot of people will say "no".

 

Everyone draws that line in the sand at different points. My line in the sand is so far on the horizon, it might as well be on the beach on the next continent. I'm given content, I adapt to, I don't try (too hard) to make it adapt to me. I also want bumps smoothed over a bit, but not crushed with a steamroller.

 

After you play EvE Online a while? You look at every other game totally different, in that game you not only have to fight to get everything, you also have to fight to just keep it.

[Liminal]

I also want bumps smoothed over a bit, but not crushed with a steamroller.

I actually agree with that, but I don't see how that relates to Kubrows.

 

Objectively:  Kubrow mechanics use punishment. "Do this or else". Nothing else in the entire game does that, that's why it's hated by many players, myself included.

 

Also, comparing WF to other games serves no purpose. Just because "others do X" it doesn't make "Y" good.

Edited December 8, 2014 by The_Doc

[Innocent_Flower]

Kubrows are rediculous. 

 

The first one is in perma-stasis. I'm not defrosting it. 

The second one died.

I've got an egg on display. I'm not hatching it. 

 

They're insanely expensive. Maintaining them is nothing but tedius. 

 

Sentinels don't have this bullS#&$.

Sentinels 4 lyfe. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

I feel like people focus too much on the platinum/buisiness end and not enough on the gameplay end

 

I like the idea of having a pet i take care of

 

And that it can die if i dont

 

I wish there were more ways to interact with that pet to really drive this home

 

Yes, it's true. Nowadays everything seem to be entangled too much in the business aspect and I think, some of the kubrow mechanics problems stem from that.

 

I actually don't use any kubrows. I want to use different Kubrows for different missions. I mean, there is no need for a VIP hunting kubrow in other missions than capture and I am not willing to spend platinum everytime I want to change my kubrow 

 

They can die, but honestly if I know it, I can deal with it.

[Onisa]

Someone mentioned a page or more back that resources are pure RNG (or PRNG if you accept that).

I'd simply like to restate this little factoid as it seems a good portion of those fine with argon seem to have forgotten, or have very good 'luck' with it.

I don't have good 'luck' with argon, and given my personal goal in the game at the moment is to breed Kubrow to match my color scheme I'm always looking for it. I might  get one in three hours play time hosting my own games. And yes, while most things don't require more than two, that's still about six hours of play time I need to put in without reset happening.

[Azawarau]

Someone mentioned a page or more back that resources are pure RNG (or PRNG if you accept that).

I'd simply like to restate this little factoid as it seems a good portion of those fine with argon seem to have forgotten, or have very good 'luck' with it.

I don't have good 'luck' with argon, and given my personal goal in the game at the moment is to breed Kubrow to match my color scheme I'm always looking for it. I might  get one in three hours play time hosting my own games. And yes, while most things don't require more than two, that's still about six hours of play time I need to put in without reset happening.

The problem might be more wit kubrows than argon there