Critical Chance Mods Are Effectively Useless

[MilesCadre]

There is obviously a problem, if you don't have an issue. Don't post. These people are trying to make this game better.

How so? Theyre changing mechanics that dont have problems. If its not broken, why fix it?

 

Thats why I'm posting. If you dont liek the mod, dont use it. I dont like Raisin Bran cereal. Should I write a angry letter to Kellogg saying "CHANGE YER RECIPE!"? no, because maybe, juuuuuust maybe, people DO like it.

 

Read the post RIGHT above yours.  It is very plainly explained for you.

 

 

"I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math."

 

Eurhetemec said the above, multiquote got messed up and it's a pain to fix it.

The problem is with all your math is you think its a constant. You think that 1:6 times (approx.) you WILL get a critical, and the problem is that variables just dont work like that.

 

A Critical chance merely means that every time you fire the weapon, the computer "rolls" a die to see if you get a critical. On a 20% chance, thats a 1:5 chance, so lets say the computer rolls a 5 sided die.

 

Idk bout you but that would mean its possible (if youre lucky enough) to get nothing but criticals on 18%. Its also possible to get 0 criticals on snipetron at 50% fully upgraded.

 

At the risk of being yelled at further, Your long post of broken math (that relies way too much on constants) and your arguement is merely because you're upset that a mod that takes 9 points doesnt make your weapon spew out nothing but criticals. Personally, I'd rather spend those 9 points on a additional 10% critical chance than on say Hellfire. But thats me personally.

 

So I'll leave the post again with my prior statement; If you dont like it, dont use it. Theres plenty of ofther mods out there to put in its place (3 elemental, AP, damage +, Crit damage +, Reload speed, Mag capacity, Ammo Capacity, Multishot, Penetration, Thats 11 mods out there already that would be better in your eyes and you only get 8 slots.)

 

EDIT: Forgot Fire Rate, that makes 12 so far.

Edited April 29, 2013 by MilesCadre

[Story4]

 

 

Actually, a weapon with a 10 round clip and 10% crit chance has 0.00000001% chance to crit on every single bullet. The chance that 2 bullets will crit is 1%. The chance that 3 bullets will crit is 0.1%. The chance that the weapon will score no crits from a clip is 90%. Actually i made a mistake, the chance of getting 1 crit is 65%, 35% to not get any crit.

 

If crits dealt 3 times the damage, then it would be better, because you had a reason to get it, but as it deals only double the damage it is much better to just get a mod that deals damage.

 

For example, if a weapon deals 100 damage per bullet and has a 10 round clip, it would deal 1000 damage if it deals no crit. With a 10% chance to crit it would deal 1100 damage, because one bullet dealt twice the damage. If you put a damage mod with 10% damage, but the weapon doesn't crit, the damage would be 1100, the same as it would crit.

 

Considering that crit mod is multiplicative and not additive, an 150% maxed crit mod would make 15% crit chance so your gun would deal 1100-1200 damage, depending on wether you deal 1 or 2 crits, not that big of a difference. If you replace it with a damage mod with 45% damage, your gun would deal 1450 damage if it doesn't crit and 1595 if it crits once or 1740 if it crits twice.

 

Looking at these numbers you can clearly see that crit chance is very lackluster compared to other mods, especially multishot which when maxed it has a 20% chance that you deal three times the damage.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Story4

[MilesCadre]

Actually, a weapon with a 10 round clip and 10% crit chance has 0.00000001% chance to crit on every single bullet. The chance that 2 bullets will crit is 1%. The chance that 3 bullets will crit is 0.1%. The chance that the weapon will score no crits from a clip is 90%.

 

If crits dealt 3 times the damage, then it would be better, because you had a reason to get it, but as it deals only double the damage it is much better to just get a mod that deals damage.

 

For example, if a weapon deals 100 damage per bullet and has a 10 round clip, it would deal 1000 damage if it deals no crit. With a 10% chance to crit it would deal 1100 damage, because one bullet dealt twice the damage. If you put a damage mod with 10% damage, but the weapon doesn't crit, the damage would be 1100, the same as it would crit.

 

Considering that crit mod is multiplicative and not additive, an 150% maxed crit mod would make 15% crit chance so your gun would deal 1100-1200 damage, depending on wether you deal 1 or 2 crits, not that big of a difference. If you replace it with a damage mod with 45% damage, your gun would deal 1450 damage if it doesn't crit and 1595 if it crits once or 1740 if it crits twice.

 

Looking at these numbers you can clearly see that crit chance is very lackluster compared to other mods, especially multishot which when maxed it has a 20% chance that you deal three times the damage.

Again, thats assuming that every magazine you get a critical in the first place.

 

Furthermore, thats going off of DPS, or Damage per Second.

 

The reason I prefer to have that higher crtical chance is because I prefer to have the chance for double damage. If I can kill a enemy with 1 critical shot, thats great. Otherwise, even with a 50% damage bonus, I'm still killing them in 2 shots.

 

Also, I was under the impression that each type of damage has a critical chance. So multishot, Fire, Ice, Shock, AP, etc all have a chance to go critical. Which exponentially increase the chance ot score criticals.

 

The current critical system imo works perfectly fine.

 

Also, next time you play with math, keep in mind RNG items such as critical chance are variables, not constants. Statistics are fun! [/sarcasm]

 

But to sum up, Critical chance mods are alright as they stand. If you dont like it, use one of the other 10 damage boosting mods, or 4-5 other misc mods for your rifle. I mean, you only have 8 slots as it sits.

[Mietz]

Actually, a weapon with a 10 round clip and 10% crit chance has 0.00000001% chance to crit on every single bullet. The chance that 2 bullets will crit is 1%. The chance that 3 bullets will crit is 0.1%. The chance that the weapon will score no crits from a clip is 90%.

 

If crits dealt 3 times the damage, then it would be better, because you had a reason to get it, but as it deals only double the damage it is much better to just get a mod that deals damage.

 

For example, if a weapon deals 100 damage per bullet and has a 10 round clip, it would deal 1000 damage if it deals no crit. With a 10% chance to crit it would deal 1100 damage, because one bullet dealt twice the damage. If you put a damage mod with 10% damage, but the weapon doesn't crit, the damage would be 1100, the same as it would crit.

 

Considering that crit mod is multiplicative and not additive, an 150% maxed crit mod would make 15% crit chance so your gun would deal 1100-1200 damage, depending on wether you deal 1 or 2 crits, not that big of a difference. If you replace it with a damage mod with 45% damage, your gun would deal 1450 damage if it doesn't crit and 1595 if it crits once or 1740 if it crits twice.

 

Looking at these numbers you can clearly see that crit chance is very lackluster compared to other mods, especially multishot which when maxed it has a 20% chance that you deal three times the damage.

 

There are 14 mod types in the game 8 of which you can equip into your weapon.

Not every mod should be equivalent and not all mods need to be equally useful (because that just leads to flavor builds of whatever you put in is good).

 

The crit mod has been described as a filler mod, great, thats exactly where it should be.

It's utility comparison isn't the 60% fire damage, but rather something like reload speed or stun mods.

 

For example the question isn't should I put a +150% crit mod in my pistol -instead- of the 90% fire damage, but rather do I want more crit instead of reload speed/stun/ammo max/clip max.

 

Crit is a complimentary mod, its not a straight up DPS mod.

 

I don't understand why people compare it to straight DPS mods and call it "lackluster". The numerical evaluation is right, but the context is wrong.

[Story4]

Again, thats assuming that every magazine you get a critical in the first place.

 

Furthermore, thats going off of DPS, or Damage per Second.

 

The reason I prefer to have that higher crtical chance is because I prefer to have the chance for double damage. If I can kill a enemy with 1 critical shot, thats great. Otherwise, even with a 50% damage bonus, I'm still killing them in 2 shots.

 

Also, I was under the impression that each type of damage has a critical chance. So multishot, Fire, Ice, Shock, AP, etc all have a chance to go critical. Which exponentially increase the chance ot score criticals.

 

The current critical system imo works perfectly fine.

 

Also, next time you play with math, keep in mind RNG items such as critical chance are variables, not constants. Statistics are fun! [/sarcasm]

 

But to sum up, Critical chance mods are alright as they stand. If you dont like it, use one of the other 10 damage boosting mods, or 4-5 other misc mods for your rifle. I mean, you only have 8 slots as it sits.

 

Umm, i don't understand you. Firstly, DPS has nothing to do with it.

 

Secondly, i already said that the chance for a magazine to not get a crit is 35%, 65% to get 1 shot crit. It's all there, in the first paragraph.

 

Third i showed you why, even if you have a chance to deal double damage with a crit mod maxed, getting a mod to just 45% more damage allow you to deal more damage than with a fully upgraded crit mid.

 

Fourth, no, if a shot crits then it's elemental damage also crits, if it doesn't crit then the elemental damage also doesn't.

 

"Also, next time you play with math, keep in mind RNG items such as critical chance are variables, not constants. Statistics are fun!" Really? actually, they ARE constants, because a 10% chance to get a crit IS a constant. There is a constant 10% chance to crit on every shot, it doesn't change.

 

@Mietz I agree that all mods shouldn't be the same, but the crit chance is a damage mod and compared to all the other damage mods it is very lackluster and weak. It's comparison is a fire damage mod, because they both do damage. It is not a straight DPS mod, it is a chance to do more dps, but it is still a dps mod. By your logic, multishot would also be a complimentary mod, but it isn't because at 100% multishot chance you basically deal twice the damage and at an 120% multishot chance you have a 20% chance to deal three times the damage.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Story4

[MilesCadre]

Umm, i don't understand you. Firstly, DPS has nothing to do with it.

 

Secondly, i already said that the chance for a magazine to not get a crit is 90%. It's all there, in the first paragraph.

 

Third i showed you why, even if you have a chance to deal double damage with a crit mod maxed, getting a mod to jsut 45% more damage allow you to deal more damage than with a fully upgraded crit mid.

 

Fourth, no, if a shot crits then it's elemental damage also crits, if it doesn't crit then the elemental damage also doesn't.

 

"Also, next time you play with math, keep in mind RNG items such as critical chance are variables, not constants. Statistics are fun!" Really? actually, they ARE constants, because a 10% chance to get a crit IS a constant. There is a constant 10% chance to crit on every shot, it doesn't change.

 

@Mietz I agree that all mods shouldn't be the same, but the crit chance is a damage mod and compared to all the other damage mods it is very lackluster and weak. It's comparison is a fire damage mod, because they both do damage. It is not a straight DPS mod, it is a chance to do more dps, but it is still a dps mod. By your logic, multishot would also be a complimentary mod, but it isn't because at 100% multishot chance you basically deal twice the damage and at an 120% multishot chance you have a 20% chance to deal three times the damage.

10% chance is not a constant. It does not mean 1 out of every 10 shots is a critical. it means that I have a CHANCE that 1 out of 10 shots will be a critical.

 

Obviously you dont know the difference between a Constant and a Variable.

[Mietz]

@Mietz I agree that all mods shouldn't be the same, but the crit chance is a damage mod and compared to all the other damage mods it is very lackluster and weak. It's comparison is a fire damage mod, because they both do damage. It is not a straight DPS mod, it is a chance to do more dps, but it is still a dps mod. By your logic, multishot would also be a complimentary mod, but it isn't because at 100% multishot chance you basically deal twice the damage and at an 120% multishot chance you have a 20% chance to deal three times the damage.

 

No, what I'm saying isn't it's not -technically a DPS mod, it is, all of the mods are DPS by proxy.

 

What I'm saying is its an -indirect- DPS mod, like, lets say faster reload (as it decreases time between your damage, increasing your sustained DPS).

[Worira]

Actually, a weapon with a 10 round clip and 10% crit chance has 0.00000001% chance to crit on every single bullet. The chance that 2 bullets will crit is 1%. The chance that 3 bullets will crit is 0.1%. The chance that the weapon will score no crits from a clip is 90%.

 

 

Your figures need work. 90% is the chance of any individual bullet not scoring a crit, not of the entire clip failing to score any.

 

Mietz, critical chance is very much a direct DPS mod. It's just a crappy one.

 

Miles, your math is terrible.

[Mietz]

Your figures need work. 90% is the chance of any individual bullet not scoring a crit, not of the entire clip failing to score any.

 

Mietz, critical chance is very much a direct DPS mod. It's just a crappy one.

 

Miles, your math is terrible.

 

Its an unreliable DPS mod, especially on slow firing weapons.

 

The decision between crit and multishot is pointless as multishot guarantees double damage per bullet at 100% multishot, crit does not.

But crit isn't that tier of mod, crit is supposed to compliment high ROF weapons and synergizes well with multishot.

 

Id rather have crti in my high rof weapon with multishot than clip size/max ammo for example.

[MilesCadre]

Your figures need work. 90% is the chance of any individual bullet not scoring a crit, not of the entire clip failing to score any.

 

Mietz, critical chance is very much a direct DPS mod. It's just a crappy one.

 

Miles, your math is terrible.

Problem is I didnt do math. Theyre statistics.

 

Its like a Die. If a critical role would be the #1, logic dictates you have a 16.7% chance to hit 1. Or if you prefer, a 1:6 chance.

 

Does that mean one out of every 6 rolls is GUARANTEED to be the #1? You roll a die 6 times and tell me.

 

The Critical chance system works the same

[Ryanshow]

They are good for guiltless fusion fodder.

[Story4]

10% chance is not a constant. It does not mean 1 out of every 10 shots is a critical. it means that I have a CHANCE that 1 out of 10 shots will be a critical.

 

Obviously you dont know the difference between a Constant and a Variable.

 

A variable is something that changes. Crit chance isn't a variable because it doesn't change, it remains constant. It doesn't mean that one every 10 shots is a crit, i agree, it means that every shot has a 10% chance to be a crit, which is a constant. Every shot doesn't have an 5% chance or 15% chance to crit on the same weapon, it has a constant 10% chance. What is a variable is the damage dealt, because, depending on your luck, you may or may not score more or less crit hits from a clip. Actually i edited my post, did some more math and for a 10 round this with a 10% crit chance there is 65% chance that you will get 1 crit.

No, what I'm saying isn't it's not -technically a DPS mod, it is, all of the mods are DPS by proxy.

 

What I'm saying is its an -indirect- DPS mod, like, lets say faster reload (as it decreases time between your damage, increasing your sustained DPS).

 

Ok and what's your problem then? Since you agree that it is an indirect dps mod, it is a lackluster dps mod. Multishot is almost like critical chance. Multishot gives you a chance to fire 2 bullets for one, dealing double damage. Critical chance gives you a chance for one bullets to deal double damage. The only differences between them are that Multishot is additive not multiplicative like crit, multishot has a nice animation that shows that you fired 2 bullets for one (not that it matters) and crit has yellow numbers and that the multishot mod has a bigger capacity than the crit mod. But, basically, they are the same.

Problem is, Multishot is much better than Crit. Why? for example Lato has a 2.5% crit chance. If you max out Pistol Gambit, it will take 9 capacity but only increase the crit chance by 120% multiplicatively, which ends up with a little over 5% crit chance and takes 9 capacity slots. If you use Barrel diffusion at rank 9 you get an 80% chance to multishot, which is exactly that 80%, which means that from a 10 clip 8 shots will multishot. Clearely you can see why multishot is better than crit now?

Also, since a max crit mod takes 9 slots, you are much better to just get Heated charge for example to 60% damage. From 100 damage per bullet, 10 round clip, multishot would deal 1800 damage, heated charge would do 1600 damage and crit chance has a very small increase to the chance of doing 1100 damage. This is not counting the fact that the other mods also account for the base crit chance, which would give them an 2.5% chance to score 1980 damage and 1760 damage respectively.

[Story4]

Your figures need work. 90% is the chance of any individual bullet not scoring a crit, not of the entire clip failing to score any.

 

Mietz, critical chance is very much a direct DPS mod. It's just a crappy one.

 

Miles, your math is terrible.

Yeah i know, figured it out and made an edit. It's actually 65% to score 1 crit, 35% to not score any.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Story4

[arune]

Problem is I didnt do math. Theyre statistics.

 

Its like a Die. If a critical role would be the #1, logic dictates you have a 16.7% chance to hit 1. Or if you prefer, a 1:6 chance.

 

Does that mean one out of every 6 rolls is GUARANTEED to be the #1? You roll a die 6 times and tell me.

 

The Critical chance system works the same

I think you're not grasping how probabilities work here. If a 1 on a 6-sided die would be a crit, it indeeds means on average 1 in 6 shots would be a crit.

 

Which means, on average, the current crit mods suck. Because you can just replace the maxed crit mod with a bottom rank damage mod, and get a bigger damage increase on average. There is literally no reason whatsoever to equip a crit chance mod, unless you are intentionally wanting to limit yourself to do less damage.

[Mietz]

Ok and what's your problem then? Since you agree that it is an indirect dps mod, it is a lackluster dps mod. Multishot is almost like critical chance. Multishot gives you a chance to fire 2 bullets for one, dealing double damage. Critical chance gives you a chance for one bullets to deal double damage. The only differences between them are that Multishot is additive not multiplicative like crit, multishot has a nice animation that shows that you fired 2 bullets for one (not that it matters) and crit has yellow numbers and that the multishot mod has a bigger capacity than the crit mod. But, basically, they are the same.

Problem is, Multishot is much better than Crit. Why? for example Lato has a 2.5% crit chance. If you max out Pistol Gambit, it will take 9 capacity but only increase the crit chance by 120% multiplicatively, which ends up with a little over 5% crit chance and takes 9 capacity slots. If you use Barrel diffusion at rank 9 you get an 80% chance to multishot, which is exactly that 80%, which means that from a 10 clip 8 shots will multishot. Clearely you can see why multishot is better than crit now?

Also, since a max crit mod takes 9 slots, you are much better to just get Heated charge for example to 60% damage. From 100 damage per bullet, 10 round clip, multishot would deal 1800 damage, heated charge would do 1600 damage and crit chance has a very small increase to the chance of doing 1100 damage. This is not counting the fact that the other mods also account for the base crit chance, which would give them an 2.5% chance to score 1980 damage and 1760 damage respectively.

 

First of all, please stop repeating that crit gives double damage, most weapons do not have 2x crit multipliers.

 

Also please -read- what I write instead of substituting what you think I mean.

 

Multishot -is- better than crit. Elemental mods are better than crit.

Multishot specifically can be leveled to -guarantee- double damage (at 100%).

In fact -nothing- is better than multishot when it comes to DPS (no diminishing returns), not even elemental mods, straight damage or ROF.

 

That does NOT mean that crit has no function or is "lackluster", it only means that its worse than multishot/elemental, it still has places in builds.

Else I can say that Elemental mods are lackluster because I can use Multishot instead and the Elemental mods are lackluster because straight up damage mods have no diminishing returns. blah.

Mods can't be stacked so a statement of "you can take XYZ instead" is utterly pointless. You are talking about the crit mod like its in a vacuum with the other mods and its an either-or scenario, this is a false dichotomy.

Please apply the -context- I mentioned in my first post here.

 

These are the current mods that are available that are better for DPS than crit:

 

Freeze Damage (diminishing returns depending on unit and body part but impairs slow)

Fire Damage (diminishing returns on corpus)

Electrical Damage (diminishing returns on grineer and infested)

Armor Pierce (diminishing returns on Infested)

Damage

Fire Rate (has diminishing returns with low ROF weapons)

Multishot

 

You might be noticing by now that those are 7 mods, you have 8 slots in your weapon, ergo you would want another slot filled with "filler mods" (if you are going to minmax DPS)

Further not all mods can be maxed at the same time, so you gonna need to pick anyways.

 

This might be ammo max, clip max, puncture, stun, reload speed, crit or crit dmg.

 

Max Clip, Max Ammo, Reload Speed, are mods that do not improve your dps, they improve your sustained damage over time.

Stun is a CC mod

Puncture is not a DPS increase but a conal AOE mod.

 

Crit and Crit DMG are the only mods that improve your DPS at that point and do not provide diminishing returns because it has a chance to double -all- damage types and enhancements you already made with the other (better) mods.

 

It's a synergy mod.

[Qb3rt]

I think a lot of people don't really understand the math involved here. Allow me to demonstrate it for you:

 

The Grakata has a 7.5% crit rate and does 200% damage on a crit. It has a base damage of 9. Thus on a crit it does 18 damage.

 

If you have a maxed-out crit rate mod for it, that's +150% chance, so 18.75% chance to crit. As a crit does 200% damage, that's thus a 9.375% increase to the damage you do.

 

That mod would take up 9 points, and would have cost a significant amount to make, in both credits and sheer number of mods used to make it.

 

For a 9.375% increase in damage.

 

Whereas you could get really any other damage mod, and get a far better result. A 9 point Piercing Hit mod is +60% damage (and does more against some targets). Even assuming the game rounds down and ignores fractions, that's an increase from 9 to 14 damage on every shot, which is thus going to be very close to well, a 60% damage increase - probably more in practice given many enemies are vulnerable to that damage type.

 

So I feel like it is quite misleading of DE to suggest that Point Strike (+crit chance) is a good mod for the Grakata. It's better than for some guns, but it isn't very good at all, objectively speaking. In fact, it's extremely poor bang-for-cost.

For the people saying "Oh we need EVERY weapon's crit rate before we can theorycraft", no, you do not. You need the outliers. We have the outliers. The math is extremely simple, as I hope I have shown (I can go into more detail if needed). +Crit chance mods in Warframe are a very bad deal in almost all cases. Even on weapons which have a good crit chance they tend to be a bad deal - a "filler" mod because they are cheap, rather than something you really want. It seems like in the entire game, only Snipetron, which is basically a fairly poor weapon, really benefits from +crit%, and even that isn't really enough to make it into a good weapon.

 

Several melee weapons COULD benefit from it, but the melee +crit chance mod is laughably small (+30% at max), rather than the +100% or more most weapons get (which would actually have some value beyond filler).

 

I agree that we need to see more details on the weapons. Given we have mods that modify such things as crit chance, crit damage, and reload speed, those should really be shown to the player. We don't need to know that to conclude the +crit chance is largely useless/filler for weapons other than Snipetron, though. If anyone disagrees, I'd like to see their math.

As a professional mathematician, I approve this message.

 

The math simply makes a mockery of these mods.

 

The ONLY potential redeeming quality of crit mods is if they were to also scale with raw damage mods (which I'm not sure they do).... in other words, making a +50% damage mod also increase crit damage (200% crit damage of 150% base damage would essentially make your crits do 300% base damage and any increase in crit-damage% would scale by 150%) ... while elemental and armor pen mods would still only scale on base damage, not the modified value. That multiplicative 'snowball-effect' is the only situation where the Crit%/damage mods could stack up to existing mods, but that would require a) weapons with pre-existing high base crit rates, b) the same weapon also having pre-existing high base crit-damage rates, and c) a combination of at least 3 mods used simultaneously .... all just to make 2 of them match up to other mods being used individually.

 

But even then, it would take a significant increase in crit% or crit-damage to begin to match up with Armor Pen and Multishot mods.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Qb3rt

[Story4]

@ Mietz, yes you are right, most weapons only have 50% bonus damage on crit, so getting a crit mod is even worse.

 

If crit is worse, then it is lackluster. It is just bad compared to anything else.

 

Also this description "mods that improve your DPS at that point and do not provide diminishing returns" is actually every mods description and all offer a significant bonus to damage, some even double it instead of just giving a chance to deal just 50% more damage, especially multishot which could be consider better than a crit because it deals double the damage with a higher chance of doing it.

 

I'm not saying that critical chance is bad, because it can make you deal more damage especially because it ads 50% to everything else, it's just that the critical chance mod is terribly bad and instead of maxing it out you might as well get some damage mods instead and deal more DPS. Since the crit hits are actually 50% more damage now i really see no point in getting the crit mod.

[Webly]

Miles, your math is terrible.

 

It really is.

 

Also to anyone claiming crit chance synergizes well with high RoF mods/guns, the problem is that other mods add more damage.  You have a limited number of slots and points, you're better off adding several flat damage increases than crit chance and crit damage.

Critical mods offer no advantage over maximizing flat damage at the moment, even on a "crit gun" like Grakata.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Webly

[NarcolepsyNoise]

The critical chance mods are ueful ONLY when you know the exact critical chance on the weapon. Unfortunately the developers (without any particular reason) refuse to give us this information.

It's obvious, that 150% is the increase of the base critical chance, which has the range from 2,5 % to 20% if I am not mistaken. So with this mod you can have from 6,25 to 50% total critical chance. Additionally, as far I noticed, crit. chance is higher when you hit the enemy in their weak spot.

The wiki is suffering from this loss of knowledge )=

[Qb3rt]

Does anyone know if crit damage scales with base damage increases (e.g. Serration mod)??

 

By my math ...

 

--- adding both max +150 crit% and max 120% crit-damage mods to a Rifle with a base 20% crit rate and base 200% crit damage  amounts to a 125% multiplicative damage increase. i.e. more than doubling damage.

--- combining this with max Serration (assuming crit damage scales with the damage increase) these three mods combined amount to a ~500% damage increase.

 

For example, an unmodded Rifle with 10 base damage would do an average of 12 base damage per shot (assuming 20% crit rate and 200% crit damage). With just a max lvl Serration mod the weapon would do an average of 31.8 damage per shot. But, with all 3 of these mods the weapon would do an average of 71.55 damage per shot.

 

If my assumptions are correct then I think we may be underestimating crit%/damage mods -- for high base crit% and high base crit-damage Rifles -- at least. This is what I meant about the potential 'snowball-effect' we may have been overlooking. But sadly this level of effect would only be possible on Rifles with high base crit rates and high base crit damage, vastly narrowing the amount of weapons that make use of these two stats.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Qb3rt

[Soulfighter]

percents dont magicly get better because your throwing out more bullets. 

 

 

 hell maxing  out the crit on that pos would get you less boost than to tossing on  a rank 3 hellfire/stormbringer mod

 

crit chance does get better the more you shoot, pretty simple math there.

 

fire 10 bullets with a 50% crit, there's basically no chance half of them will crit

 

fire 1000 bullets with a 50% crit, you can be sure approximatively half of them will crit

 

chances become true with many occurences of an event, otherwise they don't really mean S#&$, so yeah,  crit and crit dmg are more effective on weapons that fire lot of bullets

Edited April 29, 2013 by Soulfighter

[Qb3rt]

" crit and crit dmg are more effective on weapons that fire lot of bullets"

 

100% False, they only make crit variance smaller.

 

With a 50% crit rate you may be more likely to crit 40% of 10 shots than you would 100 shots .... but you are just as likely to crit 60% of those 10 shots. The variance applies both ways.

 

Crit% and crit-damage can be reduced to a singular, per-shot damage multiplier. The amount of shots is entirely irrelevant to average damage increases.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Qb3rt

[BETAOPTICS]

Problem is I didnt do math. Theyre statistics.

 

Its like a Die. If a critical role would be the #1, logic dictates you have a 16.7% chance to hit 1. Or if you prefer, a 1:6 chance.

 

Does that mean one out of every 6 rolls is GUARANTEED to be the #1? You roll a die 6 times and tell me.

 

The Critical chance system works the same

The heck, this guys math is more terrible than the ones of a 16 year old. In a theory if you say 1# is the crit and others aren't in a dice and you roll it 6 times it does not mean that in that 6 times it will give you 1# as a number but when rolled let's say 1000 times, the chance of 1# being is still approximately 1 out of 6.

[Soulfighter]

 

 

100% False, they only make crit variance smaller.

 

 

which make it more effective

 

derp

[Mietz]

which make it more effective

 

derp

 

You might be looking for the word "reliable".