The Vandal Issue, Petition For Hooligans

[JoeHook]

So it seems there are lots of feelings about the vandals, i've been scanning the topic for a while, and it seems the two extremes sit as such:

 

One: Exclusivity, no more vandals. 

Two: Just give us the vandals. 

 

Obviously, most people fall in between somewhere, so this is my proposal for Hooligans, with Vandal stats in ( )

 

 

Braton Hooligan or Braton mk.II - 125,000 credits - V polarity - no blueprint - Braton skin

 

Mastery Level          4          (0)

Base Damage         19        (20)

Base Firing Rate     9.0       (9.4)

Accuracy                33.0     (33.3)    

Base Clip Size         45        (45)

Base Ammo Size    500       (500)

Base Crit Chance   7.0%    (7.5%)

 

 

 

Lato Hooligan or Lato mk.II - 125,000 credits - V polarity - no blueprint - Lato skin

 

Mastery Level          4           (0)

Base Damage         27.0     (30)

Base Firing Rate     4.5       (5.0)

Accuracy                22.0     (23.0)    

Base Clip Size         15        (15)

Base Ammo Size    210       (210)

Base Crit Chance   7.0%    (7.5%)

 

 

Slight reduction in stats across the boards (to keep epeen advantage), very expensive, no blueprint to beat cost, no special skin, lamer name. Alternately, they could be blueprint only, in parts like a warframe, with high cost, days to forge, and high rubedo cost.  

 

Selfishly (full disclosure, obviously im a hunter), you could restrict to founders only, but i dont think that'sin the spirit. 

 

My reasoning:

 

                 I've played in lots of games with exclusive concept, and i bought ex prime. I enjoy exclusive content, and like showing it off. I get it. Having said that, I believe exclusive content should always be cosmetic only. Videogames in general are a medium of particular evenness, where players compete in a much more "fair" environment than most other forms of competition, in which physical factors are involved. Warframe has always maintained that, with the exception of founders items and color palettes, all weapons and warframes can be purchased with in game credits or forged, even if it might be expensive to do so, but that is not true while the Vandals exist.

 

                 I honestly don't want the skin, i would HATE to wreck the exclusivity of the cosmetics, so that players can prove they were here in the beginning, and show it off, as I will my Ex Prime. But i think the exclusivity of the stats, which other players cant see, is against the grain of general inclusiveness in this game. It turns me off that the two guns i would most enjoy playing with most are unavailable to me in any capacity, because i was late to the beta. I use the braton, and switch between Aklato and Lex for pistol, almost always, so the vandals are my wheelhouse. But i cant use them. It kinda sucks. I have supported this game as much as i could since discovery, and put a few people onto it, some who contributed cash. I contributed myself, to support the production of an excellent game even though I basically only use frames and weapons i acquired before i bought founders. I just want a chance to use the vandals, but unskinned to protect closed beta and open beta weekend players. Nerf them if you'd like. Call them "Your Mom's Braton" and "Whiny Lato Whiner for Whiners". Just please let me use them. 

Edited April 28, 2013 by JoeHook

[K0bra]

Braton Hooligan same sound like Vandal.

Hmm idk.

[BenMorgan]

This would be a good idea, to be honest.

One of the best features of this game is that you can get anything without paying for it. At least anything that is "combat-relevant", except for the vandals. So, yeah great idea!

[Thor]

I think this is a compromise that makes sense - though the requirements for getting them don't necessarily have to be that harsh. If people want pretty skins, you could also give these new unique skins and have them be rewards for periodic events.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Thor

[JoeHook]

Braton Hooligan same sound like Vandal.

Hmm idk.

 

The name was intended to sound like a cheap knockoff of the Vandal, as thats exactly what it would be. 

 

 

And would those who have Vandals please specify. Its your content we're discussing, so your voice carries more weight. 

Edited April 28, 2013 by JoeHook

[modded]

I agree that the stats shouldn't be exclusive, but that skins should be.

 

Or we could just get exclusive braton skins from alerts. Nothing unlike melee weapon skins.

[K0bra]

I meant the weapon sound.:)

But hey Steve said Vandals came back so why discuss?

Edited April 28, 2013 by K0bra

[JoeHook]

Haha, ill take the audio, but once again, i get the exclusivity factor. IMO Hooligan is in all ways cosmetically identical to the Braton, differing in stats (and performance) only. 

[Gregio]

I don't think so.
They're not overpowered (not too much, anyways), the Vandals, and they're a nice reward for those who were contributing to the game at the time.

They deserve it because they have been part of the game since then and that's enough of a reason to have both a more powerful and different visual weapon.
As Founders, we get access to Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime and Skana prime or w/e it was called, we get this over non-founders because we are helping fund the game.

I don't think your argument carries good logic. -shrug-
You may want the Vandal weapons, but, hey, too bad, you weren't here then.
Maybe when we go to full release, those of us here now will get some form of open beta reward. Or not.
Either way, I disapprove of your idea.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Gregio

[JoeHook]

I just think the "You werent here then" argument conflicts with the spirit of a game that strives to make a F2P game thats the opposite of Pay to Win. All rewards in the game can be earned, with the exception of the Primes, which are slight upgrades and mostly cosmetic. I just think that the Vandals should be that as well, slight upgrades and mostly cosmetic. It could be argued that they are slight upgrades, but i think there is room in the middle for another gun, which i think in many ways would add to the value of the Vandals, not detract. 

[xxx7]

To be honest, I don't think it would be right to have another unique looking gun with same stats. The Braton Vandal is a standard Braton, but modified by the Tenno themselves, hence what makes it so special.

 

Now I don't condemn the idea of another Braton, with another skin, and different stats, as long as it's not superior or exactly the same e.g. less damage, but more accurate. I understand you feeling left out, but it wouldn't be right to have an almost identical counterpart either. That's my opinion though...hope I'm making sense =)

[Carillon]

Haha, ill take the audio, but once again, i get the exclusivity factor. IMO Hooligan is in all ways cosmetically identical to the Braton, differing in stats (and performance) only. 

 

 if it's going to look the same as the braton... why not just get a braton?

only practical difference between vandal and braton is that vandal is a little bit more ammo efficent. (by ~20%)

[Hezekiah]

The ones with the Braton Vandal are the original tenno who got here first.  There weapons should be stronger (at least the one they got as a reward) besides sure 1 weapon they got is a tiny bit more powerful, this isn't pvp so does it really matter? 

[JoeHook]

I come from a place of feeling not left out, but like i never had a chance to earn it. I didnt really EARN Ex Prime. I bought him. I helped the game out by giving capital, and so i think i "earned" the right to the unique looking aspect of the character. But i wouldnt mind if there was a release of a new Excalibur with the extra polarity slot and recharge rate, for a high fee of credits, that looked like the original excalibur. Excalibur mk. II. Which is why i propose Braton and Lato mk. II.

 

I get that people disagree, I understand the status symbol. But i dont understand the holdback on stats when this is at most a 4 player game. Most of the reason i want the Vandal is solo play. The Braton falls a bit short with the lower bullet efficiency and no polarity, the lato is a bit weak especially without polarity, the aklato are a bit inaccurate. I know they are the starting weapons for a reason, they go with the style of the game in the most satisfying way IMO. I just think its a real shame that they are a bit gimped in endgame play, and knowing that there is a more solid version of them out there, unavailable do to getting to the party late, just makes me a bit sad. (Sad Face)

[Korevas]

I too would like to see this implemented, I'm perfectly fine with people wanting to show off that they are very special snowflakes just for being around at a certain time, but anything related to stats and power should never, ever be time exclusive. It can (and should actually) be hard to get and take some time, but the one thing that would finish your loudout should definitely never be completely out of reach forever.

[JoeHook]

I had another idea. What if, in the spirit of lore, cooperation, and status, a stack of items would be given to ever vandal owner. It would be like a team heal item, called "Teach Vandal". All players in the room when it was used would be given a blueprint of an unskinned vandal with a note on it who the original owner of the vandal belonged too, and a smaller stack of items. The blueprints would spread like a virus of sorts, and the finished product would always bear the name of the owner of the vandal your blueprint originally spawned from. 

 

Cool...

 

 

Edit: Bad idea. People would bug eachother mercilessly for blueprints. Not exactly "spirit of cooperation". 

 

Sigh.....

Edited April 28, 2013 by JoeHook

[Nedwin]

125k credits... for what? ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[Gregio]

I just think the "You werent here then" argument conflicts with the spirit of a game that strives to make a F2P game thats the opposite of Pay to Win. All rewards in the game can be earned, with the exception of the Primes, which are slight upgrades and mostly cosmetic. I just think that the Vandals should be that as well, slight upgrades and mostly cosmetic. It could be argued that they are slight upgrades, but i think there is room in the middle for another gun, which i think in many ways would add to the value of the Vandals, not detract. 

The Vandals aren't Pay to Win, they're rewards for supporting the game for longer. If YOU had the chance to be here then or not is irrelevant.

The game will get more and more weapons which will fit those niches, and maybe upgrades to the Braton and Lato eventually, but they will not and should not be at all related to the Vandals the original beta players have.

The Vandals are Beta rewards. Those who were here then deserve those weapons, those who weren't may buy Founder packs if they want to stand out with the Primes. Everyone else should just enjoy the game and watch it progress.

If the Vandal was the most powerful weapon in the game, I would understand your argument, "Oh, just because they were here first, they get the best weapons in the game? Oh, no. -cryface-"

But they're not.

What you asked for is basically for there to be a Braton Mk.2 which would have stats inferior to the Vandal but superior to the original Braton.

I would argue, mod the original Braton, but of course you've done that.

So I'll simply argue, get a different gun until a gun that fits that new niche exists, and were such a gun to be made, it should NOT be a Braton clone, even if it is another assault rifle, it should have it's own skin and be available to everyone, just like every other gun that isn't a Prime or Beta reward.

Stats aside, if your logic followed, every person who wasn't here for Easter will whine that in a F2P game, they don't have access to this special color pallete because they weren't here at the time, so "clearly those people are PAYING FOR THEIR "WIN", thus the game is P2W, bawwww."

Edited April 29, 2013 by Gregio

[JoeHook]

I musnt have been clear enough, I didnt mean or say the Vandal was Pay to Win. I just meant the game strives to be as far from that as possible, and does an excellent job. I merely think the Vandals being no longer obtainable is against the spirit of the games "everything can be built" mentality. Also, i said numerous times that i support and enjoy cosmetic exclusives. 

 

To your other point, which is exactly why i worry, is that there will be no other gun that will fill the niche the Vandals fill. Theyre too close already to the Braton/Lato to really warrant other similar guns. But the better bullet efficacy, and the better mod efficacy (V polarity) of the Vandals is a version of the Braton and Lato that is more viable endgame. It seems like that was original intention of them, to sort of upgrade the starter guns to make them more on par with some of the more specialized guns. I struggle in many missions, and most solos with my Braton and Lato to output my share of damage. Choose other guns you may say, I have, I do, but i like the Braton/Lato combo a lot. Its just really fun. It was the first set i used, the first gun i bought, the first guns i leveled to 30, but I have to admit they lacks a little. When i saw the Vandals, I realized that the extra 5 mod points and the better bullet efficacy would make my beloved Braton/Lato the first set i bring everywhere, which is what i did for the longest time until the ancients numbered many and the bosses had so much health at the highest levels. Im not angry. Im sad. I use lots of guns, but I miss my Braton and solo Lato, and i just wish i could upgrade them a bit. The model (not skin, but idea) of the guns are already there. Upgraded endgame Braton/Lato. But i cant get them. I just kinda wish i could, enough that im willing to type a bunch in a forum, and fork over a lot of virtual credits, useless outside of Warframe. Lets keep things in perspective. 

Edited April 29, 2013 by JoeHook

[Dasmir]

Steve already mentioned the return of vandal someday.. can be tomorrow or can be in 3 years..

[SnokyoDrift]

I wouldn't be phased one bit if DE decided to release a perfect copy of the BV with the default skin and firing sound and named it something more vanilla. It's not like others owning the same bullet launcher affects my usage and enjoyment of it at all. Most importantly, it fills a rather desirable niche of having better ammo economy, higher stated accuracy, and a moderate fire rate compared to the other Bratons. It seems petty to restrict such a nice blend of stats to the general playerbase. Why should the "free" version of the Braton Vandal have nerfed stats at all? The CBTs and "super special elite early testers" have a gun with a nice skin, name, and firing sound.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Tryysaeder

[Dasmir]

Steve already mentioned the return of vandal someday.. can be tomorrow or can be in 3 years..

[JinxedFire]

You want upgraded endgame Braton/Lato because they're your favorite weapons? What about all the other weapons in the game? I don't really use either of those weapons, to be honest I don't quite like the Braton, but I'd still us it if it was the best available for what I want to achieve. 

You said to keep things in perspective, but your perspective is very narrow and sort of selfish. I get it, they're better, but you not being able to maybe ever get them doesn't make the game unfair. There's nothing in it that's unfair, you bought the founders package and got an exclusive warframe that has an extra polarity that could make a whole setup, but eventually they're gonna stop selling those, and the prime will not be available again, possibly forever. Would that then be unfair to the people who completely missed the beta and founders?

All games have events and event items that may or may not ever return, it's not your right to have it granted to you just because you missed the event.

 

You don't really have an argument at all, if they will ever be available or not we can only wait and see. The devs might want to keep it exclusive to the first beta testers as a thanks for supporting their not yet completed game, something you weren't here for, and that sucks for you, no point in really dwelling on it.

 

[MoonicusMaximus]

You are asking for direct upgrades to weapons. DE has already stated that weapons are not meant to be upgrades from one another, save for the MK1 Braton, which is a starting weapon.

 

Even the current Vandals traded firing speed for slight damage and accuracy increases. What you're asking for, however, would make using a Braton Vandal or Lato Vandal completely obsolete in comparison to the new guns. That is not the direction that DE is taking at this time for weapons; maybe in the future, but right now, there isn't supposed to be a tiered stepladder approach to the guns player use.

[Dasmir]

You are asking for direct upgrades to weapons. DE has already stated that weapons are not meant to be upgrades from one another, save for the MK1 Braton, which is a starting weapon.

 

Even the current Vandals traded firing speed for slight damage and accuracy increases. What you're asking for, however, would make using a Braton Vandal or Lato Vandal completely obsolete in comparison to the new guns. That is not the direction that DE is taking at this time for weapons; maybe in the future, but right now, there isn't supposed to be a tiered stepladder approach to the guns player use.

 

They already do that, right now Braton vandal is the best rifle in game and the only thing its stoping the lato vandal to be god tier its the lex.

 

its like saying DHS doesnt outclass the others melees.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Dasmir