To New Players And De: Feedback About Primary Weapons

[RyanDaniel638]

Hello fellow Tenno and DE overlords.

 

As a forward, this is going to be a long post about weapon progression. While every weapon with mods can perform spectacularly, new players starting off will be more concerned about purchasing new weapons as a direct upgrade. I'm hoping to point out some basic flaws and present a way to fix them. As of this post I'll be focusing on Primary weapons, but if this thread becomes popular enough I'll do Secondary and Melee as well.

 

Weapons, weapons, weapons. There's plenty for everyone and for nearly every style of play, but some are inherently better than others. Most weapons have a specialty whether it's polarity slots, crowd control abilities like stagger, stun or knock back, or straight damage like armor piercing daggers and slashing swords. This is great for older players that have the resources to buy or forge these items, but for new players it can be a hassle or even overwhelming. Which one is better? Is it all about play style? The simple answer might be "Yes", but for people who like to do a bit of everything, or generally like to be prepared for any situation, the answer gets a little blurry.

 

Starting your first mission, everything is smooth sailing. Enemies are as weak as you are, they don't have shields, are weak to headshots. You have plenty of ammo, but aren't overwhelmed by bad guys. This is great, fine and dandy. Even after finishing Mercury it's more of the same, but as a new player progresses and starts fighting Corpus, which are immune to headshots without the proper mod, and Infested, which generally swarm the player, dealing enough damage gets tough, especially surrounded and having to reload. Simple solution is buying a new weapon, and by your second planet, you should be able to. 

 

For the sake of argument, I'm going to pretend that our new player has enough Credits/Platinum and Mastery to use any primary weapon he wishes. Using the in game information it's easy to calculate how much maximum damage a weapon can dish out before running totally empty. I'm not taking into account critical hits, or hits against weak points. Criticals are random, and weak spots are skill based. Even though my math rounds out decimals, you should assume you're using every bullet you have, even if it doesn't fill a full magazine. I've made a note about the Bolt type weapons. Against the enemies they are strong against they will deal more damage than listed due to their special ammo type.

 

EDIT: If anyone can figure out what Fire Rate translates to in seconds I can add a general DPS to each weapon. This way players can get an idea on how fast each weapon chews through ammo.

 

Shotguns: 

HEK: 140 damage * 4 bullets = 560 damage per magazine * 30 magazines = 16800 damage

STRUN: 130 damage * 6 bullets = 780 damage per magazine * 25 magazines = 19500 damage

BOAR: 72 damage * 10 bullets = 720 damage per magazine * 15 magazines = 10800 damage

 

Rifles:

MK1- BRATON: 16 damage * 60 bullets = 960 damage per magazine * 6.67 magazines = 6400~ damage

BRATON: 17 damage * 45 bullets =  765 damage per magazine * 11.1 magazines = 8500~ damage

BRATON VANDAL: 20 damage * 45 bullets = 900 damage per magazine * 11.1 magazines = 10000~ damage.

BOLTOR: 18 damage * 60 bullets = 1080 damage per magazine * 9 magazines = 9720 damage (Armor Piercing weapon, additional damage to specific enemy types.)

BURSTON: 21 damage * 45 bullets = 945 damage per magazine * 12 magazines = 11340 damage

GRAKATA: 9 damage *60 bullets = 540 damage per magazine * 9 magazines = 4860 damage

GORGON: 24 damage * 90 bullets = 2160 damage per clip * 5.56 magazines = 12000~ damage

LATRON: 36 damage * 15 bullets = 540 damage per magazine * 33.3 magazines = 18000~ damage

SNIPETRON: 100 damage * 4 bullets = 400 damage per magazine * 18 magazines = 7200 damage

PARIS: 45 damage * 1 bullet = 45 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 3240

PARIS (Charged): 100 damage * 1 bullet = 100 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 7200 damage (Armor Piercing weapon, additional damage to specific enemy types. Entirely silent weapon.)

 

What does this all mean? Let's get to the meat of things.

 

(Be forewarned that I won't be discussing the shotgun changes as of Update 7.9. We know why HEK was a Mastery 4 weapon because it was a sniping shotgun. That's no longer the case, and with all 3 shotguns working in a very close proximity to one another it should just be accepted that shotguns are meant for close range combat, not exceeding 20 meters. Only if this fact changes will it change the validity of this post.)

 

Tenno start at Mastery rank 0, but if you complete the tutorial you start at rank 1. If you have done so, and amass the 17,500 credits you can buy the best close range weapon in the game. STRUN does the highest damage over time, and is the second hardest hitting Primary. It's also the only shotgun to sport a Polarity slot. HEK was for good reason a Mastery 4 weapon, but with the patch, some players can see it's mediocrity. I would suggest making the BOAR the entry level shotgun, with HEK and STRUN being direct upgrades later as they are now.

 

What if you don't enjoy reloading during battle like Revolver Ocelot? What if you want a SMG to mow down your enemies? GRAKATA and GORGON are your options, but you can see which outclasses the other, and rightfully so. GRAKATA is a rank 0 weapon, so it should be purchasable for credits as an alternative to the stock MK1-BRATON. It's clear that it's damage is by far the worst, but it's niche is critical damage, so it's risk vs. reward, or unless you have proper mods (which drop fairly often, which is the only reason why I even mentioned this). GORGON is a fairly straightforward minigun and the only direct upgrade, but you'll be a long time waiting for Mastery rank 3.

 

There are plenty of rifles. All are a direct upgrade damage wise. BOLTOR is the best by far. While it falls short from the BURSTON in terms of raw damage, Bolt type weapons do more damage to armored targets, meaning if you don't have an armor piercing mod yet, Corpus and Heavy Grineer will fall before you. Also as it's name suggests BURSTON shoots 3 round bursts, meaning one bullet might stray and miss, lowering it's overall damage. In my opinion this is perfect, as BRATON and BURSTON can be bought with credits and the BOLTOR can to be crafted or purchased with Platinum, but you'll need Mastery rank 2. (I'd like to point out though that BOLTO/AKBOLTO is the Secondary weapon akin to the BOLTOR so you can have the best of both worlds if you so choose).

 

Last are the LATRON, SNIPETRON, and PARIS. LATRON and SNIPETRON are the long distance rifles, with LATRON having a larger clip (and therefore, room for error) and SNIPETRON with the strongest zoom feature, but with 4 bullets per round, take care not to miss. PARIS shoots Bolts like the BOLTOR and is silent, meaning you can stealth through missions (if you have the means to do so. I would assume having Ash or Loki are your Warframe help immensely).

 

These weapons aren't about upgrading your damage (it's my opinion though that LATRON is an excellent weapon despite it's small clip size) but about filling roles and giving players options for their desired play style. Options are great, but most of these weapons are simply dwarfed by the others (STRUN, in particular), giving no real reason to use them or even consider them. This is what I would propose to fix said problems:

 

1. Make BOAR the first available shotgun, with HEK and finally STRUN Mastery locked appropriately.

2. GRAKATA needs a base damage buff. As one of the two Primary bullet spitters it's damage is lackluster. Increasing the base damage from 9 to 12 would keep it in line with the MK1-BRATON at 6480 total damage, but it's high rate of rate, critical chance and bonus critical damage would give players an incentive to use and invest in this weapon. It also needs to be purchasable by Credits.

3. SNIPETRON and PARIS are specialty weapons. While both can be quickly obtained if you have the Credits/Platinum, it's my opinion that the SNIPETRON is useful in only a handful of maps and is plagued with a small magazine, making any missed shots due to lag or otherwise incredibly painful. The same could be said about the PARIS, filling in for stealthy game play and true to the saying "One shot, one kill." I would raise the Mastery requirement for these weapons given their special circumstances and skill to use them well.

 

EDIT: This idea is actually pretty silly. Striking this out.

 

4. As for the medium range rifles, I feel the are where they should be, but I wish it was a little more clear where each one stands.

 

EDIT: Actually, I had one other idea that I failed to mention. Once a player starts getting mods and levels them up, any weapon not purchased with Platinum will not be fitted with an Orokin Catalyst. With the blueprint for this available from Alert type missions I would highly recommend:

 

5. Supercharge the MK1-BRATON, so that players have a weapon to fall back on once they start progressing statistically. (I realize that all players start with 50 Platinum. That is enough to buy a Catalyst, but since the use of Platinum can't be controlled, [that is, some players might prefer to buy Warframe of weapon slots], the best that can be done is to heavily imply to buy a Catalyst, or just supercharge the damn thing).

 

I know very few people will take the time out to read this, but I await criticism, hated and flames. :P

Edited April 29, 2013 by RyanDaniel638

[Locksauce]

Nice post, could you get the numbers for the braton vandal for comparison?

[RyanDaniel638]

I can. The only reason I omitted it is because a player joining today wouldn't have that weapon available.

Silly on me though, because it's literally the only weapon left. I need a couple of minutes to check the Wiki and do the math.

[Locksauce]

I can. The only reason I omitted it is because a player joining today wouldn't have that weapon available.

Silly on me though, because it's literally the only weapon left. I need a couple of minutes to check the Wiki and do the math.

 

You have my respect. Thanks a ton man. Like your ideas!

[RyanDaniel638]

BRATON VANDAL: 20 damage * 45 bullets = 900 damage per magazine * 11.1 magazines = 10000~ damage.

 

To my surprise this weapon is fairly decent. I'll edit my original post and add this result there.

 

EDIT: Changed base damage from 25 to 20. Just a typo, the math was correct.

Edited April 29, 2013 by RyanDaniel638

[Grabehn]

I like that you put the Hek in there too. While not available, I do like to compare everything right from the beginning. I do agree that the Grakata needs a buff of some sort, since it came out I haven't even looked at it, and while it makes sense that is only craftable, having the first enemy carrying the weapon around makes it pretty weird to not have access to it from the start. Excellent post!

Edited April 29, 2013 by Grabehn

[Argoms]

Agh, why'd you swap from correctly saying magazine to clip halfway through the post :I

 

Grakata is meant to be crit-based, so DE isn't planning to damage buff it. It was recently crit boosted in both damage and chance though. I don't have the numbers on hand unfortunately. 

 

The latron is very much effective at closer ranges, it kills lighter units in one shot, but has problems with infested unmodded (ice mods are relatively quick to get though).

 

I suggest not raising mastery requirements. Paris and snipetron require good aiming ability, but not thorough knowledge of the game. Aiming and shooting is a skill gained from many games, and telling the competitive quake player that he can't use a paris because he isn't skilled enough to handle projectile leading yet seems silly. In a time like this, assuming that a player has no previous experience playing shooters is not a good idea. Mastery locked weapons should be those that require knowledge of warframe specifically.

[Calayne]

Very agreeable post and recommendations for beginners. I quite disagree with the suggestion that the BOAR should be first in line, though: Despite it's lower damage in stat, its DPS is much higher than Strun's, owing to its full-auto capability. Not to mention that a full-auto shotgun would be somewhat harder to use. The Strun is a better basic weapon.

 

Hmm, I'm not too sure why the Grakata is so hard to get, relatively speaking. I suppose it's not quite a basic rifle, and has a niche in a party.

 

I agree with the above poster, Agrom, though, regarding the other weapons. It's a seperate weapon type from the ones available in the market. Shouldn't be witheld too long.

 

Also: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Grakata

 

According to this: 200% Crit damage, 7.5% crit chance.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Calayne

[RyanDaniel638]

Agh, why'd you swap from correctly saying magazine to clip halfway through the post :I

 

Grakata is meant to be crit-based, so DE isn't planning to damage buff it. It was recently crit boosted in both damage and chance though. I don't have the numbers on hand unfortunately. 

 

The latron is very much effective at closer ranges, it kills lighter units in one shot, but has problems with infested unmodded (ice mods are relatively quick to get though).

 

I suggest not raising mastery requirements. Paris and snipetron require good aiming ability, but not thorough knowledge of the game. Aiming and shooting is a skill gained from many games, and telling the competitive quake player that he can't use a paris because he isn't skilled enough to handle projectile leading yet seems silly. In a time like this, assuming that a player has no previous experience playing shooters is not a good idea. Mastery locked weapons should be those that require knowledge of warframe specifically.

Unfortunately it's late so I ended up using clip for magazine. Sorry!

I don't want to comment about the GRAKATA too much because it's my opinion that critical chance should be removed from this game. I know it won't happen and I know people prefer criticals so I don't want to bash on their play style.

At the moment PARIS and SNIPETRON are Mastery 0. My argument is that every shooter game is a bit different in term of controls and mechanics. I would like to see them go up but in the end you're right. You start at 0 and if you do the tutorial you're 1, and 2 is a far cry to wait for use those weapons.

[Argoms]

Unfortunately it's late so I ended up using clip for magazine. Sorry!

I don't want to comment about the GRAKATA too much because it's my opinion that critical chance should be removed from this game. I know it won't happen and I know people prefer criticals so I don't want to bash on their play style.

I don't like crits either, but the grakata is deliberately intended to be a crit-based weapon. Calculating its damage per second/gun/bullet etc. without taking in account its main selling point is going to make the analysis useless.

[Depar]

I love 2 do theory-crafting like this but i didnt do it by all the wpns coz its kinda pointless for an example, looking at the paris

 

paris is a chargeable rifle-classed wpn and only if you have a highranked Serration you gonna quickshot it

maybe you want to fill the charged dmg aswell?

 

PARIS: 45 damage * 1 bullet = 45 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 3240

PARIS: 100 damage * 1 bullet = 100 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 7200

 

about the critthing? just think about, you hit some importan organ and stuff, it makes me fell more comfortable with crit on guns

[Calayne]

Technically, crits and weak spots could always be mutually exclusive. It should be inter-related, though: It's like how if you shot someone in the head, it's always going to do more damage than the body. But even then, shooting someone in the head would cause varying amounts of damage depending on how it enters the body, and what it passes through. I imagine a head shot through the cheeks would be much less devastating than one between the eyes!

Same for the body shots: When you think about it, in real life, every shot into your centre mass is almost certainly a weak point. With armor, less so, assuming the armor absorbs the brunt of the force. But if you shot someone in the heart, that's almost instant death, as opposed tothe liver, say. And it's all random, or close enough to random, to make crits acceptable. Everything is relative. Glorious destruction or organs and body parts, bursting into pools of smoky crimson, oozing out of bullet-induced pores included.

 

Just wish head shots now didn't lead to exploding arms. I must've shot him pretty hard in the reality for his arm to be ripped off his head wound.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Calayne

[RyanDaniel638]

Challenge accepted!

On a serious note, fair is fair. I'll do my best do crunch the numbers but feel free to correct any of my mistakes.

Originally this post was longer, I'm streamlining through it now.

 

GRAKATA Total Damage

No mods, no crits: 4860

No mods, 100% crit @ 200% crit modifier: 9720 (Best case, albeit unrealistic scenario)

No mods, standard 7.5% crit, 200% crit modifier: 5589 (Average)

Point Strike, 18.75% crit, 200% modifier: 6682.5 (Average)

Vital Sense, 100% crit, 200% * 120% modifier: 11664 (Highest possible damage, again unrealistic)

Vital Sense, 7.5% crit, 200% * 120% modifier: 5734.8 (Average)

Both Mods, 18.75% crit, 200% * 120% modifier: 7047 (Average)

 

Raising both mods to their max rank is 18 points of 30, leaving a meager 12 for damage, multishot, or elemental damage. Not only are these 2 mods mandatory for it to be effective, it would have to be potatoed.

[Calayne]

Looks devastating. With it fully specced and potatoe'd, with Speed Trigger and elemental damage+ AP, I can see the Grakata being quite a killer. Genocide Machine.

[RyanDaniel638]

I love 2 do theory-crafting like this but i didnt do it by all the wpns coz its kinda pointless for an example, looking at the paris

 

paris is a chargeable rifle-classed wpn and only if you have a highranked Serration you gonna quickshot it

maybe you want to fill the charged dmg aswell?

 

PARIS: 45 damage * 1 bullet = 45 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 3240

PARIS: 100 damage * 1 bullet = 100 damage per magazine * 72 magazines = 7200

 

about the critthing? just think about, you hit some importan organ and stuff, it makes me fell more comfortable with crit on guns

The reason why I didn't want to get into critical hits is because there are a lot of unknowns when it comes to the numbers. A lot of the information on the Wiki isn't confirmed: they are assumptions based on multiple tests from the players themselves. PARIS for example on one page says it's critical chance is 7.5%. On another it's 20%. What's stopping it from being 25%? 15%? No one is absolutely sure.

 

What is absolutely sure is the base damage of the weapon and how many bullets it can carry. You can at least gauge whats better for your buck when it comes to purchasing new weapons, especially depending on what mods you may or may not have. I'm trying to keep as many variables out of the equation and sadly crit is one of them, for now.

[Vaskadar]

Total potential damage is an inversion of DPS in most cases. Might be good to include that.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Vaskadar

[RyanDaniel638]

Looks devastating. With it fully specced and potatoe'd, with Speed Trigger and elemental damage+ AP, I can see the Grakata being quite a killer. Genocide Machine.

Let's see:

Point Strike 9 150% crit chance

Vital Sense 9 120% crit damage

Split Chamber 15 

Serration 13

Cryo Rounds 4

Hellfire 6/Stormbringer 6

Piercing Hit 4

 

So that would be 150% critical chance, 120% critical damage, 90% multishot, 150% damage, 15% freeze damage, 15% fire damage or 15% electrical damage, 15% armor piercing damage. You could take out the extra damage mods save AP and put Speed Trigger if you wish, but I'd rather tack on extra damage. It shoots fast enough as it is.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Let's see:

Point Strike 9 150% crit chance

Vital Sense 9 120% crit damage

Split Chamber 15 

Serration 13

Cryo Rounds 4

Hellfire 6/Stormbringer 6

Piercing Hit 4

 

So that would be 150% critical chance, 120% critical damage, 90% multishot, 150% damage, 15% freeze damage, 15% fire damage or 15% electrical damage, 15% armor piercing damage. You could take out the extra damage mods save AP and put Speed Trigger if you wish, but I'd rather tack on extra damage. It shoots fast enough as it is.

 

I'm personally of the opinion that it would be better to invest heavily into varying elemental mods depending on the enemies you would face, rather than tacking on as many damage mods as possible. The reduced effectiveness of, say, lightning mods against an Infected scenario, could be better spent in other areas, like fire rate, ammo capacity, etc.

[RyanDaniel638]

Total potential damage is an inversion of DPS in most cases. Might be good to include that.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why. The topic is about total potential damage, and I thought I made it clear it wasn't about DPS. I'll do a DPS thread later, but I'll be taking into account various mods. I'll include it though, so that there will be no confusion.

[Depar]

The reason why I didn't want to get into critical hits is because there are a lot of unknowns when it comes to the numbers. A lot of the information on the Wiki isn't confirmed: they are assumptions based on multiple tests from the players themselves. PARIS for example on one page says it's critical chance is 7.5%. On another it's 20%. What's stopping it from being 25%? 15%? No one is absolutely sure.

 

What is absolutely sure is the base damage of the weapon and how many bullets it can carry. You can at least gauge whats better for your buck when it comes to purchasing new weapons, especially depending on what mods you may or may not have. I'm trying to keep as many variables out of the equation and sadly crit is one of them, for now.

i understand the argument about crit, and i agree but thats not the thing i want 2 pointing out. its it the fact that paris is an chargeable rifleclassed wpn and if you do the "quickshot" you will do 45 dmg but ive you charge up the attack it will be 100. no theory ore something, this is an fact

[Calayne]

Haha! I don't even have a Grakata myself, let alone a potato to try it on! Good suggestion, though! I'd try it in a couple more months, after I get all my dream weapons and mods. ^^ Sounds totally awesome!

[Vaskadar]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why. The topic is about total potential damage, and I thought I made it clear it wasn't about DPS. I'll do a DPS thread later, but I'll be taking into account various mods. I'll include it though, so that there will be no confusion.

 

Just stating that it should help players decide which weapon they'd like to use. Crazy damage output or crazy efficiency?

 

Also: Braton Vandal has 20 damage per shot, not 25.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Vaskadar

[RyanDaniel638]

I'm personally of the opinion that it would be better to invest heavily into varying elemental mods depending on the enemies you would face, rather than tacking on as many damage mods as possible. The reduced effectiveness of, say, lightning mods against an Infected scenario, could be better spent in other areas, like fire rate, ammo capacity, etc.

Actually, I thought I said this in my last sentence but I understand what you're trying to say. Personally speaking I equip all damage mods while I play, simply because it adds damage. If I'm grouped with clan mates to specifically farm a mission, I'll then take the time out to do the same with my mods. Frankly I'm too lazy to specialty mods my weapons for every PuG or Alert.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Actually, I thought I said this in my last sentence but I understand what you're trying to say. Personally speaking I equip all damage mods while I play, simply because it adds damage. If I'm grouped with clan mates to specifically farm a mission, I'll then take the time out to do the same with my mods. Frankly I'm too lazy to specialty mods my weapons for every PuG or Alert.

 

I would be to, admittedly, but as it is right now I'm still in the process of experimenting with the Grakata and what sort of potentials it can accomplish through mod focusing. What I do know is that 60% fire damage of base 9 damage is 5 damage... which is negated to around 2 against Grineer. An extra 2 damage per shot for 9 power doesn't compare to what 9 power could do for its fire rate, or ammunition capacity... so on and so on.

 

I imagine once I'm done having fun with the Grak, I'll probably stop caring so much as well.

[RyanDaniel638]

Just stating that it should help players decide which weapon they'd like to use. Crazy damage output or crazy efficiency?

 

Also: Braton Vandal has 20 damage per shot, not 25.

Fixed, thanks for the correction.

You're also right. Personally I play ammo efficiently and didn't think too deeply otherwise. If I knew how much Fire Rate translated to into seconds I'd put DPS info for all to see, but for now players will have to go by the in-game info or the Wiki. :(