Press 4 To Win

[shoryukensama]

the real question is why have fun at the expense of others? @_@? 

player a likes spam ability gameplay player b likes firing guns and stuff. 

how the hell do you balance something without upseting someone else. who gave you the right to be angry for someone playing the way they want to play. 

 

peace. you got freedom to choose how u want to play. who you want to play with. 

 

nothing is ever going to satisfy everyones ego.

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

 

So...you're saying that you want to be able to play your style without anyone else hampering your style?  That's just not gonna happen, dude.  What if you didn't like the fact that a Nyx could Chaos a whole map tile, and you like to have enemies at least trying to shoot back at you?  One way or the other, someone is either going to hamper your style, or compliment it.

 

It is also totally possible to use a balanced power build to do T4 missions.  Give me an example of a frame whose powers wouldn't allow you to at least last the first cycle of any mission without any corrupted mods.  You have to keep in mind, though, that different warframes are better for different missions than others.  Certain teams compliment each other better than others.  No one could possibly expect a Loki to be able to stop enemies from attacking a Defense point anymore than a Nekros would be that great at Capture (I don't think Nekros has any powers that make capturing targets easier).

 

Let's try to imagine what would happen if DE nerfed every nuke power to have only LoS and an 8 sec timer like Rhino Stomp.  As well, that every nuke power had some utility that lasted 8 seconds like Rhino Stomp so as to justify the nerf.  What would happen?  Every 8 seconds someone uses their nuke, or everyone trades nuking.  What if we implemented MechaKnight's idea?  People would still just spam their powers, or wait the short amount of time just to refresh their power to max effectiveness.  Further, to get passed LoS, people would just run to a point where it would be most effective, use it, and then just finish off the few enemies that remained.  That's exactly what I did when Excalibro was my only nuke frame (at which time LoS was how Radial Javelin worked and I didn't have the mods to spam it).

 

That brings me to kinda wonder: if DE is concerned about power spamming, why did they rework Excalibro's 4th to stop being LoS?  Sure, Radial Blind made sense to be LoS, but they didn't have to remove that from Radial Javelin to make it still cool.  The rework actually made spamming Radial Javelin potentially worse.  They even made Ash's Blade Storm go much faster by having clones do 2/3 of the work, making it much more spammable.

 

There is no way a nuke ability or abilities with 100% proc will ever be on the same level as weapons of any kind.  Not so long as all weapons do not have guaranteed procs or lack of AOE.  You can't balance that which is more powerful than the other.  You can only make it so that you can only use powers with the same DPS as a weapon.  For example, a maximized Ash's Blade Storm targets up to 18 targets/time, dealing 5680 damage.  That's a total of 102,240 damage, without counting bleeding.  Now let's compare it to Boltor Prime using this build: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Boltor_prime/t_30_22223302_132-0-5-133-5-5-134-3-5-137-2-10-141-6-5-150-1-10-355-7-3-451-4-5_132-8-150-8-137-7-134-6-451-6-133-6-141-11-355-4/en/2-0-44/37755/0

 

Let's also focus on how much damage the Boltor deals to Corrupted Heavy Gunners, given it deals mostly Corrosive.  According to the 'Details' section, the weapon deals 3217.79 damage per bullet to Ferrite.  That means it takes 31.8 bullets for a Boltor Prime to deal the same amount of base damage as Ash's max'd out Blade Storm.  At a fire rate of 13 bullets/sec and a magazine size of 60, the Boltor Prime deals 193,067 damage to Ferrite armor in one full magazine.  How long does Blade Storm take to complete and finish out its bleed damage?  If it's one target being hit 18 times, it's nearly forever compared to 4.6 seconds to empty just one magazine of the Boltor from the given build.

 

If the team uses all Corrosive Projection and/or other ways to mitigate armor, the Boltor Prime's damage is pretty straight forward.

 

Hopefully all these numbers didn't confuse anyone.  If I missed something in those very-quickly-thrown-together calculations, someone please point it out.

 

From a purely numbers standpoint, I'd say the damage between Ash's Blade Storm and a Boltor Prime is pretty balanced.  To note, however, Ash's Blade Storm leaves him vulnerable for a moment after casting, which can mean death in T4 survival after a certain amount of time in mission.

 

If there is one thing that nuke powers all have, too, it's casting time.  Perhaps so much casting time that another player should be able to run ahead of the nuking player and deal almost as much damage with the right builds and weapons.  If a Boltor Prime player has trouble outpacing a nuker, then maybe it's not the nuker's pace, but the rifleman's build and skill.  And if we're to compare a rifleman to two nukers, the rifleman is just outnumbered.  However, two rifleman and one nuker, the nuker will probably have trouble keeping up in order to even be useful.

 

-------

 

On a side note, last night I was doing vault runs with two MR4 newbies and one guy who was above 8 (maybe he was 9...can't remember).  I put on a max range Blade Storm build of my own style and pretty much was dominating the missions.  After the second run, I asked them to tell me if they want me to hold back at all because I didn't want to hog the game for them and I was having discussions about P42W on the forums, and all three said to please keep going and not hold back.  To, by all means, keep doing what I was doing.

 

Soooo...yeah...  I still haven't met a single newbie or anyone that has hated me for nuking whole rooms.  Anti-P42W in terms of trying to balance the experience for newbies doesn't seem like an argument from my experience.  Anti-P42W in terms of raw damage numbers doesn't seem accurate unless I've made a mistake somewhere.  The only argument I can see is that P42W doesn't really take a lot of skill, but at a certain point, neither does aiming because it becomes muscle memory.  If the only argument comes down to skill, then it's entirely subjective at this point and has no real basis for standing.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

To AlphaHorseman: I feel like you are purposely ignoring some of the points I'm trying to make. What we're suggesting here isn't to take away your choice of the game. No where did I ever state nearly that I'm trying to 'enforce' my style of play on others. We're not trying to remove anything. You're just the ones taking it to extremes.

 

The choice for solo or co-op is not always a choice. To think that is wrong, and unfair. Not everyone has that choice. People find this game hard. People don't have friends at the beginning. Their only option is random game play. Some people have fear of forums, yes. That IS a thing. So they wont even come on here for help. So they turn to random matches, and when they see someone beating the game for them without giving them something to do, like I said to Night, it can go either way. They'll love the help, or get irritated at the fact that the person is just doing everything and not caring at all. A quick band-aid to this would probably just be adding a better group up mechanic related to mastery rank and conclave together or something, but it's not here at the moment.

 

You just admitted that God Mode is fair. Wow. I don't even have anything to say to that. Good job.

 

Corrupted mods do not give enough of a loss for the amount of their gain. Fleeting Expertise is the only mod that even gives a balanced offset. 40 vs 40. 60 vs 60, etc, yet even that is so easily fixed.

 

and yes. It is much easier to abuse on some frames than others, much more so. So, like I've said before, and you seem to not recognize. Something need to change, either the mods, frames, or difficulty of the game.

 

Pretty sure you just answered my question here by not answering it. You mentioned nothing of balance.

 

Leave to find another match for every single time a one shot wonder nuke power house entered the game? New players would just uninstall after a week with the amount of leaving they would have done.. and I wouldn't even put the possibility past the fact that they have. Who wants to buy a new game and then let someone easy mode it for them? That's a horrible new player experience.

 

Also, there isn't a choice for wanting to use corrupted mods or not. They have pretty much become the integrated meta of the game. You recruit people for survival for example, you want a Nekros to desecrate. Guess what, he has no corrupted mods. He has crap range and can only desecrate once per maybe 30 seconds or so. Guess what? That team is going to end up calling that Nekros a 'bad' Nekros because he can't keep the air supply up. It's no longer a matter of choice, when it becomes a necessity to uphold expectations.

 

Key word there. Expectations.

 

If we truly wanted to play the game as we wanted to, there would be no balance. There would be no need to cater to power creep issues or imbalances of the game as to what makes what fair or unfair. If people could truly play the way they wanted to. I could enter a mission. Press 2. Everything would die, all loot would be collected, and would be magically teleported to extraction. It's something people would do. Is it fair? Of course not, but that is exactly why balance needs to be made to some things.

 

I'll just simply put this the way you put it. How do you know whats good for the game? Are you a DE? I certainly hope not, since you apparently like god mode and think it's fair.

 

 

Again, you have a choice of what to use and how to play. That's the whole point of customization, modifications, and pretty much the base line of WarFrame. Literally everything in this game (bar cosmetics) can be modified.

 

Uh, yeah co-op or Solo is always a choice. The options are right there, people can choose how they want to play. If they want a Pub, it's there for them to choose it. If they want Solo, that's also there for them to choose. You're right when you say it can go either way. But limitations on the entirety of the system because some cases can go one way or the other isn't a solution to it. Some people will like how others play, but some people won't. Best part is though, you can choose to play your way. Sure, you may not like the other persons play style, but at the same time we can't dictate how they play because they aren't us.

 

The Corrupted Mods offer trade offs, and that's the point of them. If the bad rivaled the good, then not a lot of people would like to use them if they very adversely affected different aspects of powers. Even with the lower trade off on most, they still whack a lot of powers in a kit because they affect all powers overall, not just the one. That's pretty balanced right there. Of course, with new mods coming out people can choose between different detriments and strengths, but that's the point of the Corrupted Mods.

 

Balance. The game itself is still in Beta, and we're still trying to find balance for it all. But that doesn't mean nerfing powers is how it's going to balance the game. Look at the example Night gave in his post, literally one of those AoE Ult abilities whom you said doesn't need a buff or a nerf is compared to what some people consider an "OP Gun", the Boltor Prime. You compare them side by side and you see how someone who can "spam ult" is compared to someone who can use an "OP Gun". They pump out the same damage overall. Granted Ash's ult takes forever to execute and has a limited target number and range, they can do the same amount of damage. Of course there are other guns and other powers, but you can see how one or the other is pretty viable and useful, and can be utilized either together or alone depending on how a player wants to play the game.

 

Players themselves have the choice to use Corrupted Mods or not. My Loki Tank example was one, he could function exactly fine without Narrow Minded, but it gave him the opportunity to max out an aspect of is kit if he wanted to. Of course it came with the trade off of his range, but that's the nature of min-maxing. Remember that the very same Nekros could have had a Maxed Flow on and also had the option of using Energy Restores, so even without Corrupted Mods you can function just fine. Corrupted mods are useful for those who want to go all out and min-max, but you don't have to use them. There's the Primed mods coming out, energy, health, shields, ammo restores, Nightmare mods, and all the rest that you can choose from. Players have the option to use them or not. Of course min-maxing makes Corrupted Mods prevalent in modding, but if you're not one to min-max, you don't have to use them. And now, with Primed Mods, you pretty much can shove out the Corrupted mods in your build, if you so choose to.

 

There's a difference between playing how we want to play and somehow breaking the code of the game to 2 second a mission and get to the end. I never said anything about that, so don't imply that's what I'm getting at. DE gave us the freedom to play the game how we want to play, but there are already rules in the game that guide its reality. You can mod for max range if you like, but it isn't gonna hit the whole map if you're doing something other than Defense. You could go for max strength, but the targets you killed within that are just going to be replaced with a new mob. You can go full efficiency and blast your powers all you like, but you'll get to a point where you either run out of energy, or the enemies start becoming too strong to just whack with powers. Go for full Duration if you like, but you'll realize that whatever power may last a bit too long to be practical for the whole mission, or if the power is dependent on HP as well, you're hindered on two fronts.

 

So pretty much nothing in this game allows you to do what you put in your Press 2 example. For that kind of situation, hell yeah I'd say it's unbalanced. But powers don't allow you to do that. Not even the best guns in the game allow you to do that. The rules of WarFrame reality are set up by DE, and even though we can mod and change our tools to extremely in-depth levels, we still are bound by the paradigm DE sets up.

 

You're going to be God Mode if you go to a low tier map with end-tier gear. That happens in any game that allows you replay ability. To new players it'll look like you're a God, but when you get to end-tier content and see why you needed all that power, you realize that the player they saw built for end-tier. However fair it is is dependent on where you're using said gear. It'll be fair in the void when you're up against Corrupted Heavy Gunners that can do as much damage as you can. You'll look MLG Pro level when you're back in the first half of the Star Chart.

 

So...you're saying that you want to be able to play your style without anyone else hampering your style?  That's just not gonna happen, dude.  What if you didn't like the fact that a Nyx could Chaos a whole map tile, and you like to have enemies at least trying to shoot back at you?  One way or the other, someone is either going to hamper your style, or compliment it.

 

It is also totally possible to use a balanced power build to do T4 missions.  Give me an example of a frame whose powers wouldn't allow you to at least last the first cycle of any mission without any corrupted mods.  You have to keep in mind, though, that different warframes are better for different missions than others.  Certain teams compliment each other better than others.  No one could possibly expect a Loki to be able to stop enemies from attacking a Defense point anymore than a Nekros would be that great at Capture (I don't think Nekros has any powers that make capturing targets easier).

 

Let's try to imagine what would happen if DE nerfed every nuke power to have only LoS and an 8 sec timer like Rhino Stomp.  As well, that every nuke power had some utility that lasted 8 seconds like Rhino Stomp so as to justify the nerf.  What would happen?  Every 8 seconds someone uses their nuke, or everyone trades nuking.  What if we implemented MechaKnight's idea?  People would still just spam their powers, or wait the short amount of time just to refresh their power to max effectiveness.  Further, to get passed LoS, people would just run to a point where it would be most effective, use it, and then just finish off the few enemies that remained.  That's exactly what I did when Excalibro was my only nuke frame (at which time LoS was how Radial Javelin worked and I didn't have the mods to spam it).

 

That brings me to kinda wonder: if DE is concerned about power spamming, why did they rework Excalibro's 4th to stop being LoS?  Sure, Radial Blind made sense to be LoS, but they didn't have to remove that from Radial Javelin to make it still cool.  The rework actually made spamming Radial Javelin potentially worse.  They even made Ash's Blade Storm go much faster by having clones do 2/3 of the work, making it much more spammable.

 

There is no way a nuke ability or abilities with 100% proc will ever be on the same level as weapons of any kind.  Not so long as all weapons do not have guaranteed procs or lack of AOE.  You can't balance that which is more powerful than the other.  You can only make it so that you can only use powers with the same DPS as a weapon.  For example, a maximized Ash's Blade Storm targets up to 18 targets/time, dealing 5680 damage.  That's a total of 102,240 damage, without counting bleeding.  Now let's compare it to Boltor Prime using this build: http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Boltor_prime/t_30_22223302_132-0-5-133-5-5-134-3-5-137-2-10-141-6-5-150-1-10-355-7-3-451-4-5_132-8-150-8-137-7-134-6-451-6-133-6-141-11-355-4/en/2-0-44/37755/0

 

Let's also focus on how much damage the Boltor deals to Corrupted Heavy Gunners, given it deals mostly Corrosive.  According to the 'Details' section, the weapon deals 3217.79 damage per bullet to Ferrite.  That means it takes 31.8 bullets for a Boltor Prime to deal the same amount of base damage as Ash's max'd out Blade Storm.  At a fire rate of 13 bullets/sec and a magazine size of 60, the Boltor Prime deals 193,067 damage to Ferrite armor in one full magazine.  How long does Blade Storm take to complete and finish out its bleed damage?  If it's one target being hit 18 times, it's nearly forever compared to 4.6 seconds to empty just one magazine of the Boltor from the given build.

 

If the team uses all Corrosive Projection and/or other ways to mitigate armor, the Boltor Prime's damage is pretty straight forward.

 

Hopefully all these numbers didn't confuse anyone.  If I missed something in those very-quickly-thrown-together calculations, someone please point it out.

 

From a purely numbers standpoint, I'd say the damage between Ash's Blade Storm and a Boltor Prime is pretty balanced.  To note, however, Ash's Blade Storm leaves him vulnerable for a moment after casting, which can mean death in T4 survival after a certain amount of time in mission.

 

If there is one thing that nuke powers all have, too, it's casting time.  Perhaps so much casting time that another player should be able to run ahead of the nuking player and deal almost as much damage with the right builds and weapons.  If a Boltor Prime player has trouble outpacing a nuker, then maybe it's not the nuker's pace, but the rifleman's build and skill.  And if we're to compare a rifleman to two nukers, the rifleman is just outnumbered.  However, two rifleman and one nuker, the nuker will probably have trouble keeping up in order to even be useful.

 

-------

 

On a side note, last night I was doing vault runs with two MR4 newbies and one guy who was above 8 (maybe he was 9...can't remember).  I put on a max range Blade Storm build of my own style and pretty much was dominating the missions.  After the second run, I asked them to tell me if they want me to hold back at all because I didn't want to hog the game for them and I was having discussions about P42W on the forums, and all three said to please keep going and not hold back.  To, by all means, keep doing what I was doing.

 

Soooo...yeah...  I still haven't met a single newbie or anyone that has hated me for nuking whole rooms.  Anti-P42W in terms of trying to balance the experience for newbies doesn't seem like an argument from my experience.  Anti-P42W in terms of raw damage numbers doesn't seem accurate unless I've made a mistake somewhere.  The only argument I can see is that P42W doesn't really take a lot of skill, but at a certain point, neither does aiming because it becomes muscle memory.  If the only argument comes down to skill, then it's entirely subjective at this point and has no real basis for standing.

 

And now we have numbers, thank you Night!

[Nighttide77]

And now we have numbers, thank you Night!

 

No prob!  I remembered back when the slash damage event mods came out and everyone thought it was a cop-out.  However, when people did the math, they found those slash mods could be great if properly used.  I figured there was a mathematician in DE's team or something, so crunching some numbers would help bring some light to this discussion.

 

To note, as well, the devstream from yesterday highlighted the fact that the devs were planning on a potential 8-player raid(s) where enemies could withstand a hail of weapon DPS.  What does that mean?  A new game mode where damage nuke builds will only be as useful as the teamwork necessary to put it all together.  Limbo + Mesa right now is crazy cuz the team has a way to be invulnerable but dish out the pain in a huge area.  In future missions, it'll take much more, such as augmenting abilities to work better as a team.  Even a team simply augmenting each other with damage and the proper balance of support frames may be necessary.  Only time will tell what we get.

[ltlsiren]

heh, this whole discussion made me so self conscious.  I was running invasion missions with pugs, and I was almost concerned that any of the pugs would tell me they're getting upset with me spamming Blade Storm, lol.

Since the quickest way to level up my weapons is to find a good nuker to carry me instead of shooting said enemies with the said weapon. I'm 100% fine with people who nukes everything in sight as long as they do it within exp range. 

 

In fact, I love them. If I wanted to have fun with my own weapons and abilities I can either solo or join well coordinated teams for towers.

 

As long as the &#!-backwards affinity system stays at its current state I will keep myself glued to the back of nukers and happily watch them nuke away. 

 

So don't be concerned, there is always someone who appreciates that delicious exp! 

[Nighttide77]

Since the quickest way to level up my weapons is to find a good nuker to carry me instead of shooting said enemies with the said weapon. I'm 100% fine with people who nukes everything in sight as long as they do it within exp range. 

 

In fact, I love them. If I wanted to have fun with my own weapons and abilities I can either solo or join well coordinated teams for towers.

 

As long as the !-backwards affinity system stays at its current state I will keep myself glued to the back of nukers and happily watch them nuke away. 

 

So don't be concerned, there is always someone who appreciates that delicious exp! 

 

Lol, yay, appreciation ^_^

 

Heh, I'd imagine the same could be said of any skilled rifle-type players.  Just take point and wipe everything out before the player behind them needs to do anything.

[Azawarau]

Since the quickest way to level up my weapons is to find a good nuker to carry me instead of shooting said enemies with the said weapon. I'm 100% fine with people who nukes everything in sight as long as they do it within exp range. 

 

In fact, I love them. If I wanted to have fun with my own weapons and abilities I can either solo or join well coordinated teams for towers.

 

As long as the !-backwards affinity system stays at its current state I will keep myself glued to the back of nukers and happily watch them nuke away. 

 

So don't be concerned, there is always someone who appreciates that delicious exp! 

There are more issues with this post than i can reasonably fit into a post of my own

 

TL;DR

 

Its an issue that takes alot more out of the game than personal interest can hope to defend

[--MZez--]

If 4 is press to win then my left click is press to win too

[Azawarau]

If 4 is press to win then my left click is press to win too

I didnt realize you could use one button to kill enemies for 30 minutes before actually having to do something in a fast paced space ninja shooter

 

There are more than a few things wrong with that sentence

[geninrising]

Yes there is Azawarau, but the fact remains it is a valid choice they have within the structure of the game currently. 

 

The fact remains that while nukers can remove the fun completely for a large portion of the community and this should not be possible. There is no way that the personal preference of 1 player should be able to negate the will of another player.

 

Never mind the people suggesting that players not play in pugs as a way to avoid the problem(were you not new at some time and had no other way to proceed?) that kind of mentality is elitest. Claiming that other people should go elsewhere rather than have their fun ruined  speaks to my claim of a broken mechanic .

 

As I said before it should be possible for all players to derive enjoyment from a run WITHOUT utterly destroying the runs entertainment for ANYONE!

 

Freedom of choice be damned. When you remove choices from other players simply by being present that tells me something is rotten. If you cannot as a person see that then your attitude is part of the PROBLEM.

 

Balance dictates that all things should be equal and fair, however lack of balance allows things to be so skewed that being on one side means you are obviously correct in your choice while being on the other side means you are obviously wrong. That kind of meta thinking is what has made the p42w thing such a hot topic.

 

As far as the numbers quoted in Nighttides calculations what he does not figure in is the acquisition of targets with the Boltor Prime and the speed of obliterating a room full of people with the nuke. Additionally what he does not take into account is that the boltor prime has the limiter of attacking a single target at a time(without use of shred which would still be a line of targets as a limiter and the fact that punch through is not limitless).

 

Now what if they just added a target limit to spam abilities. Like with Ash. Ash's nuke is the only one that I feel is in line with the balance we speak on and funny enough that is the example he chose.

 

Why not choose Excaliber or Saryn? Why not, because those particular 4's(the most used in fact) have no limit and therefore cannot be equal to any DPS on any weapon ever. Note that I am not begging for a nerf of those frames specifically. I am simply advocating balance as a means to longevity as well as entertainment as many others before me and after me probably will continue to do.

 

Face facts, there is an imbalance that needs to be corrected for the health of the game. Otherwise it would never be a prominent enough concern that people endlessly feel the need to belabor the point in the forums constantly.

Edited January 11, 2015 by geninrising

[Azawarau]

Yes there is Azawarau, but the fact remains it is a valid choice they have within the structure of the game currently. 

 

The fact remains that while nukers can remove the fun completely for a large portion of the community and this should not be possible. There is no way that the personal preference of 1 player should be able to negate the will of another player.

 

Never mind the people suggesting that players not play in pugs as a way to avoid the problem(were you not new at some time and had no other way to proceed?) that kind of mentality is elitest. Claiming that other people should go elsewhere rather than have their fun ruined  speaks to my claim of a broken mechanic .

 

As I said before it should be possible for all players to derive enjoyment from a run WITHOUT utterly destroying the runs entertainment for ANYONE!

 

Freedom of choice be damned. When you remove choices from other players simply by being present that tells me something is rotten. If you cannot as a person see that then your attitude is part of the PROBLEM.

 

Balance dictates that all things should be equal and fair, however lack of balance allows things to be so skewed that being on one side means you are obviously correct in your choice while being on the other side means you are obviously wrong. That kind of meta thinking is what has made the p42w thing such a hot topic.

 

As far as the numbers quoted in Nighttides calculations what he does not figure in is the acquisition of targets with the Boltor Prime and the speed of obliterating a room full of people with the nuke. Additionally what he does not take into account is that the boltor prime has the limiter of attacking a single target at a time(without use of shred which would still be a line of targets as a limiter and the fact that punch through is not limitless).

 

Now what if they just added a target limit to spam abilities. Like with Ash. Ash's nuke is the only one that I feel is in line with the balance we speak on and funny enough that is the example he chose.

 

Why not choose Excaliber or Saryn? Why not, because those particular 4's(the most used in fact) have no limit and therefore cannot be equal to any DPS on any weapon ever. Note that I am not begging for a nerf of those frames specifically. I am simply advocating balance as a means to longevity as well as entertainment as many others before me and after me probably will continue to do.

 

Face facts, there is an imbalance that needs to be corrected for the health of the game. Otherwise it would never be a prominent enough concern that people endlessly feel the need to belabor the point in the forums constantly.

I dont think you realize what side of this discussion im on

 

Read back a  few pages

[geninrising]

I dont think you realize what side of this discussion im on

 

Read back a  few pages

Lol I actually pay attention your posts quite closely friend ^^ I am well aware of your stance on this topic and have seen great sense from you in many posts.

 

I have watched you being verbally attacked on many subjects for asking for balance and real choices. Artificial difficulty and any pseudo-choices that players have among Warframes many systems are your primary bone to pick with the state of the game. Quite frankly I always welcome your posts as they have a habit of being a good indicator of what is factual rather than an opinion biased one way or the other(although you do make said opinion known).

 

I apologize for not making it clear that all those comments in that post were not directed at you. Only the first comment was for you, directly in agreement to your note that there was more than a few things wrong with your initial sentence(meaning the idea that you could perform that action in that way).

Edited January 12, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes there is Azawarau, but the fact remains it is a valid choice they have within the structure of the game currently. 

 

The fact remains that while nukers can remove the fun completely for a large portion of the community and this should not be possible. There is no way that the personal preference of 1 player should be able to negate the will of another player.

 

Never mind the people suggesting that players not play in pugs as a way to avoid the problem(were you not new at some time and had no other way to proceed?) that kind of mentality is elitest. Claiming that other people should go elsewhere rather than have their fun ruined  speaks to my claim of a broken mechanic .

 

As I said before it should be possible for all players to derive enjoyment from a run WITHOUT utterly destroying the runs entertainment for ANYONE!

 

Freedom of choice be damned. When you remove choices from other players simply by being present that tells me something is rotten. If you cannot as a person see that then your attitude is part of the PROBLEM.

 

Balance dictates that all things should be equal and fair, however lack of balance allows things to be so skewed that being on one side means you are obviously correct in your choice while being on the other side means you are obviously wrong. That kind of meta thinking is what has made the p42w thing such a hot topic.

 

As far as the numbers quoted in Nighttides calculations what he does not figure in is the acquisition of targets with the Boltor Prime and the speed of obliterating a room full of people with the nuke. Additionally what he does not take into account is that the boltor prime has the limiter of attacking a single target at a time(without use of shred which would still be a line of targets as a limiter and the fact that punch through is not limitless).

 

Now what if they just added a target limit to spam abilities. Like with Ash. Ash's nuke is the only one that I feel is in line with the balance we speak on and funny enough that is the example he chose.

 

Why not choose Excaliber or Saryn? Why not, because those particular 4's(the most used in fact) have no limit and therefore cannot be equal to any DPS on any weapon ever. Note that I am not begging for a nerf of those frames specifically. I am simply advocating balance as a means to longevity as well as entertainment as many others before me and after me probably will continue to do.

 

Face facts, there is an imbalance that needs to be corrected for the health of the game. Otherwise it would never be a prominent enough concern that people endlessly feel the need to belabor the point in the forums constantly.

You still haven't shown a situation where a "nuker" removed the fun from the game. Quite the opposite actually:

 

Since the quickest way to level up my weapons is to find a good nuker to carry me instead of shooting said enemies with the said weapon. I'm 100% fine with people who nukes everything in sight as long as they do it within exp range. 

 

In fact, I love them. If I wanted to have fun with my own weapons and abilities I can either solo or join well coordinated teams for towers.

 

As long as the !-backwards affinity system stays at its current state I will keep myself glued to the back of nukers and happily watch them nuke away. 

 

So don't be concerned, there is always someone who appreciates that delicious exp! 

 

You can play in PUGs, no one said you couldn't. You're going to run into people who don't play like how you do, that's the nature of PUGs. All we can do is tough it out. Hurting peoples play style isn't a way to "solve" anything. It doesn't speak to any claim you've made, because this is all subjective, none of this is fact. Literally, you keep saying "the majority of the community" but yet you give no proof as to otherwise. Night even gives you numbers to show how comparable both systems are when it comes to numbers.

 

"Freedom of choice be damned?" That's what you're going to say? "Your attitude is part of the problem?" Oh really? Someones attitude, simply because it differs from yours, is the problem? No, that's your opinion of what you think is a problem. It's also arrogant and outright targeting to people who don't have similar mentalities to you.

 

Oh god, you need to realize that the nature of powers and guns differ. Each has their benefits, but each also has their detriments. Comparatively, either is viable, either is a strong way to go with, and the greatness is that you can choose which way to go. Powers can be great for their damage output, but then you realize that some guns can literally outclass every power in the game for damage output. But on the other end, some guns don't have the CC or utility that powers have, since some powers add elemental effects or proc enemies, or are crit builders.

 

Yet, you can overcome this with guns by adding in elemental combos, increasing damage output, and even some Utility through said elemental combos. Either system is viable and workable, you just need to realize that their difference in nature can't always be something to be balanced around. If they were both straight damage output systems, then sure, it would be easier. But that isn't the case. They have their strengths and weaknesses, all systems do, but they are not overshadowing the other, each can be used for powerful purposes and each of them are. You have to realize though, that these systems work together.

 

In high level T4 builds, you realize your powers are actually used more for CC and Utility rather than their actual damage output? You realize that most teams that go far in T4 missions are usually comprised of frames whose powers have good CC. You can see the Loki's, the Nyx's, the Nekro's, the Trinity's, the Nova's, and others, not because they can dish out damage like nobody's business, but because their powers give you CC and Utility to open up the opportunity to be able to kill enemies with gun and blade. Loki can disarm your enemies and force them to run to you, all the while you can rain down hell with a Boltor Prime, a Soma Prime, a Dread, a Paris Prime, an Opticor. A Nyx can Chaos the field and you have the opportunity to add to the mayhem by unloading your righteous fury with gun and blade upon all of them. A Nekros can desecrate and keep the team alive with some health orbs while they blast apart enemies with a Penta or Syanoid Gammacor or Despair. Same with a Trinity. The Nova can cast MP and help to slow enemy mobs to be more malleable in a fight, allowing players to shoot them while they're slowed.

 

Of course, you could go in with any combination of frames and weapons, how far you go is dependent on the team itself and how they use their tools at hand.

 

Adding target limiters only serves to limit a players powers, they don't add anything to the fun of the game. You're literally hurting their choice to use powers outright. You're targeting people and how they play, and trying to make a literal game mechanic that tells them you shouldn't be able to do so. That is wrong on all accounts.

 

You're advocating for a nerf, don't try and hide it. This isn't balance when people suffer just because other people think they should.

 

This is hardly factual, don't you dare try and claim it to be. DE is already adding in ways to hamper powers, from Eximus to Nullifiers, the ways that some powers are used is being hampered, but not outright kill the use of powers. So please, don't start rambling on some pseudo crusade for balance, literally there is choice for you to play how you play, and others how they play. Don't start on the whole "he killed them so i can't play." All you have to do is run ahead, shoot the guys ahead, or ask them to slow down, not do that, or a tonne more options are available to you. You DON'T, however, have any justification to say that hurting one system for the entirety of the community is a means to "Balance".

[geninrising]

Actually Alpha, the fact that the DEvs have said that this "playstyle" is against their wishes and in many other posts I have illustrated exactly how it removes others fun, you simply refuse to pay attention and only preach freedom while at the same time ignore balance which is necessary to allow players that freedom to not play the p42w minigame.

 

In addition you insist on forcing players into solo mode or invite only groups that want said freedom of choice to play in a way that is not p42w.

 

You espouse freedom and yet deny it to the other side by mere existence of the p42w thing.

 

The simple fact that a large portion of the community is bothered by this and wants a balance to be struck between the two is reason enough for a change. Follow that with the direct statement that players are exploiting a loophole in the energy gating of ultimates made by DE Steve and it is clear that a change is coming whether you like it or not. The only real choice is whether the feedback you provide actually has any impact on said nerfs that are sure to be inbound.

 

P42W is not intended by the devs and it will be patched in some way to effectively end it, the least you can do for the benefit of players that like it is to try and find a happy medium to allow other players to enjoy the game too.

 

What I am asking the community for is OPTIONS FOR A CHANGE that WILL be coming. I am no longer even open for discussion on whether it is a problem or not as I have had enough feedback to realize my position is completely valid.

[Nighttide77]

As far as the numbers quoted in Nighttides calculations what he does not figure in is the acquisition of targets with the Boltor Prime and the speed of obliterating a room full of people with the nuke. Additionally what he does not take into account is that the boltor prime has the limiter of attacking a single target at a time(without use of shred which would still be a line of targets as a limiter and the fact that punch through is not limitless).

 

Umm...yes, yes I did.  You didn't read my post :-P  And the Boltor P, without punch through, still throws enemies backward when they are defeated, which deals damage to the enemy in the path of the flying body.  That's the with all weapons that throw the bodies, including Kunai or Bolto.

 

I also said that the difference between using P42W and a rifle is skill set.  If a person with a rifle has quick reflexes and good aiming, acquisition of targets shouldn't be an issue in situations where P42W can't work.  I was just in another vault mission, today, and using the Hobbled key and Blade Storm Ash, but this time with pugs.  Guess who was getting the majority of the kills and damage?  Two others in the team, which included one Zephyr.  I was evening zipping around with my Tipedo and primarily keeping up using a sorta Tipedo coptering.

 

If DE truly did not intend for players to be able to use P42W, they wouldn't have made Ash's Blade Storm much more spammable, nor buff Excalibro's Radial Javelin to stop being LoS.  Warframe is largely playable Solo, and since Warframe is a lot like some other solo games I've mentioned in a previous post that incorporate P42W mechanics, I'm sure P42W won't go anywhere unless DE changes their whole methodology on what powers are supposed to do (such as taking away any damage any powers do at all).  As well, with the latest Devstream, it seems the current direction the game is going is not to nerf warframe powers, but to introduce new game modes, including a raid, where P42W doesn't work.  This includes a stealth rework of the Spy missions.  As it is, P42W doesn't even guarantee 100% success in Rescue missions.

 

At this point, Genin, I think you're just stating your opinions regardless of the evidence presented.  If you aren't at least going to make counterarguments using facts, then I don't have anything further to present.  Facts trump opinions.

[Nighttide77]

I didnt realize you could use one button to kill enemies for 30 minutes before actually having to do something in a fast paced space ninja shooter

 

There are more than a few things wrong with that sentence

 

Meh, I think that depends on perspective.  For some, timing and placing those nukes takes more skill than aiming and clicking.  I don't have any real evidence to support that, though *shrug*

[AlphaHorseman]

Actually Alpha, the fact that the DEvs have said that this "playstyle" is against their wishes and in many other posts I have illustrated exactly how it removes others fun, you simply refuse to pay attention and only preach freedom while at the same time ignore balance which is necessary to allow players that freedom to not play the p42w minigame.

 

In addition you insist on forcing players into solo mode or invite only groups that want said freedom of choice to play in a way that is not p42w.

 

You espouse freedom and yet deny it to the other side by mere existence of the p42w thing.

 

The simple fact that a large portion of the community is bothered by this and wants a balance to be struck between the two is reason enough for a change. Follow that with the direct statement that players are exploiting a loophole in the energy gating of ultimates made by DE Steve and it is clear that a change is coming whether you like it or not. The only real choice is whether the feedback you provide actually has any impact on said nerfs that are sure to be inbound.

 

P42W is not intended by the devs and it will be patched in some way to effectively end it, the least you can do for the benefit of players that like it is to try and find a happy medium to allow other players to enjoy the game too.

 

What I am asking the community for is OPTIONS FOR A CHANGE that WILL be coming. I am no longer even open for discussion on whether it is a problem or not as I have had enough feedback to realize my position is completely valid.

Yeah, that's exactly why they made a Primed Continuity and a Primed Flow, with Primed Streamline on the way, to nerf power usage.

 

I don't force players to do anything. You can go and choose what you want to play. PUGs can give you players you like, or players you don't. I never said anyone couldn't join a PUG, don't try and put words in my mouth. That's the nature of PUGs, people play in a Public Group, you will get people you're cool with, and others you're not. Doesn't mean you can't play them. It also doesn't mean you'll like how others play, but at the same time you may.

 

I said you have the option of making preset groups, going in with friends, making it invite only, or going in Solo. 

 

The existence of a play style means other people can't play how they want to play? That's an idiotic approach to it. That's like saying I can't go on my lap top simply because my roommate is watching the television. No one is stopping you from doing what you want to do, all you have to do is do it.

 

"Large portion of the community" what evidence have you to support this? If you were paying attention, that's what the new Infested and Nullifiers are. THAT'S what is happening! Enemies are coming in that provide debuffs to player effectiveness in certain aspects, while also buffing up their allies or protecting them. THAT'S the solution! Of course we don't know where this is going, but Nullifiers and other enemy types offer DE a way to combat the spam while not negating anyone's play style. Of course Nullifiers are under tweaking, but so is much everything else in this game.

 

The rest of your little rant, that's your own personal problems. And if you want to continue, please address this:

 

 

 

 

Umm...yes, yes I did.  You didn't read my post :-P  And the Boltor P, without punch through, still throws enemies backward when they are defeated, which deals damage to the enemy in the path of the flying body.  That's the with all weapons that throw the bodies, including Kunai or Bolto.

 

I also said that the difference between using P42W and a rifle is skill set.  If a person with a rifle has quick reflexes and good aiming, acquisition of targets shouldn't be an issue in situations where P42W can't work.  I was just in another vault mission, today, and using the Hobbled key and Blade Storm Ash, but this time with pugs.  Guess who was getting the majority of the kills and damage?  Two others in the team, which included one Zephyr.  I was evening zipping around with my Tipedo and primarily keeping up using a sorta Tipedo coptering.

 

If DE truly did not intend for players to be able to use P42W, they wouldn't have made Ash's Blade Storm much more spammable, nor buff Excalibro's Radial Javelin to stop being LoS.  Warframe is largely playable Solo, and since Warframe is a lot like some other solo games I've mentioned in a previous post that incorporate P42W mechanics, I'm sure P42W won't go anywhere unless DE changes their whole methodology on what powers are supposed to do (such as taking away any damage any powers do at all).  As well, with the latest Devstream, it seems the current direction the game is going is not to nerf warframe powers, but to introduce new game modes, including a raid, where P42W doesn't work.  This includes a stealth rework of the Spy missions.  As it is, P42W doesn't even guarantee 100% success in Rescue missions.

 

At this point, Genin, I think you're just stating your opinions regardless of the evidence presented.  If you aren't at least going to make counterarguments using facts, then I don't have anything further to present.  Facts trump opinions.

 

[Azawarau]

Lol I actually pay attention your posts quite closely friend ^^ I am well aware of your stance on this topic and have seen great sense from you in many posts.

 

I have watched you being verbally attacked on many subjects for asking for balance and real choices. Artificial difficulty and any pseudo-choices that players have among Warframes many systems are your primary bone to pick with the state of the game. Quite frankly I always welcome your posts as they have a habit of being a good indicator of what is factual rather than an opinion biased one way or the other(although you do make said opinion known).

 

I apologize for not making it clear that all those comments in that post were not directed at you. Only the first comment was for you, directly in agreement to your note that there was more than a few things wrong with your initial sentence(meaning the idea that you could perform that action in that way).

Oh

 

Then we must discuss further

 

My biggest issue with the game more than anything else is the state of balance and DE letting players influence it in a negative way

 

Such as 4 to win

 

Meh, I think that depends on perspective.  For some, timing and placing those nukes takes more skill than aiming and clicking.  I don't have any real evidence to support that, though *shrug*

I dont have an issue with nuking a room, i really dont

 

Its just that when you only stand in a spot and do nothing but nuke because of infinite energy supplies youre abusing the game heavily

 

Whats worse is its so terribly defended by bias

[geninrising]

My biggest issue with the game more than anything else is the state of balance and DE letting players influence it in a negative way

 

Such as 4 to win

 

I dont have an issue with nuking a room, i really dont

 

Its just that when you only stand in a spot and do nothing but nuke because of infinite energy supplies youre abusing the game heavily

 

Whats worse is its so terribly defended by bias

This is true, however the thing that bothers me most is that we are losing players because of this "playstyle".

 

I realize that the bias comes from the fact that players do this seemingly with DE's approval coming out of their design and their disapproval showing clearly in their words. DESteve going so far as to call it exploitation and then players continue to vehemently deny that such a  claim is true.

 

The hardest part of all has to be the fact that we are not hoping to deny the players ability to spam, simply it's scope of influence.

 

Lets bring Ember into this for a second as a good baseline for an example. Embers kit allows her to damage enemies in a large area OVER TIME rather than simply exploding 50m infinitely for extended periods of time. While I will not state that WoF is perfect(lol that targeting system still needs more simultaneous targets if she is to be our anti infested frame) it is one of the most properly balanced AOE killers. Again it still needs some tweaks to make it worthy of the title Ultimate or Uber.

 

Additionally another ult I can quote as being near to perfect is Bladestorm. Bladestorm has a built in limit of influence in the number of targets he can mark for attack and even has the ability to scale lategame for more damage on a single target if less targets are present, thus allowing him to clear trash mobs and maim larger enemies more easily once isolated. The only downside as I can see to his Ult is that he can mark targets he cannot see. I believe that perhaps LoS would bring a bit more necessary balance into the game that we really need, but I suggest this universally as a concept for all frame designs not the pick and choose way they did with Mag/Trinity/Excal.

 

Now there could be exceptions to this LoS due to mechanics. Banshee for example causes an earthquake in a gigantic area. IT would not be mechanically sound for some enemies to ignore the earth rocking them about just because they hide behind a crate.

 

Well, maybe hard LoS is not the way to go entirely because by definition AOE hits a large area, perhaps we could set in place a system that provides bonus IF you have proper LoS? Although I cannot for the life of me see the actual problem with requiring players be able to at least see the enemy they want to affect with their powers. As I said there are some powers that it does not seem reasonable to apply this to and that may have been the reason for DE's specific changes to those three frames skills previously.

 

Rhino for example was later used in place of Mag and Excal for a bit as was Saryn. Rhino's stomp causes a massive shockwave to rise from the ground raising all enemies in the vicinity. This skill it does not make sense to hold to a hard LoS. Whereas Saryn miissed getting nerfed while I felt that the poison should radiate out from a central location in which case the power SHOULD have been blocked by LoS and yet they mysteriously let it slide.

 

Honestly perhaps the trouble we face is bandaid fixes. Rather than review the entire mechanic system that allows for this type of energy loophole exploitation, they attempted instead to handicap specific frames. That is flawed thinking to resolve a symptom but ignore it's impetus.

[AlphaHorseman]

This is true, however the thing that bothers me most is that we are losing players because of this "playstyle".

 

I realize that the bias comes from the fact that players do this seemingly with DE's approval coming out of their design and their disapproval showing clearly in their words. DESteve going so far as to call it exploitation and then players continue to vehemently deny that such a  claim is true.

 

The hardest part of all has to be the fact that we are not hoping to deny the players ability to spam, simply it's scope of influence.

 

Lets bring Ember into this for a second as a good baseline for an example. Embers kit allows her to damage enemies in a large area OVER TIME rather than simply exploding 50m infinitely for extended periods of time. While I will not state that WoF is perfect(lol that targeting system still needs more simultaneous targets if she is to be our anti infested frame) it is one of the most properly balanced AOE killers. Again it still needs some tweaks to make it worthy of the title Ultimate or Uber.

 

Additionally another ult I can quote as being near to perfect is Bladestorm. Bladestorm has a built in limit of influence in the number of targets he can mark for attack and even has the ability to scale lategame for more damage on a single target if less targets are present, thus allowing him to clear trash mobs and maim larger enemies more easily once isolated. The only downside as I can see to his Ult is that he can mark targets he cannot see. I believe that perhaps LoS would bring a bit more necessary balance into the game that we really need, but I suggest this universally as a concept for all frame designs not the pick and choose way they did with Mag/Trinity/Excal.

 

Now there could be exceptions to this LoS due to mechanics. Banshee for example causes an earthquake in a gigantic area. IT would not be mechanically sound for some enemies to ignore the earth rocking them about just because they hide behind a crate.

 

Well, maybe hard LoS is not the way to go entirely because by definition AOE hits a large area, perhaps we could set in place a system that provides bonus IF you have proper LoS? Although I cannot for the life of me see the actual problem with requiring players be able to at least see the enemy they want to affect with their powers. As I said there are some powers that it does not seem reasonable to apply this to and that may have been the reason for DE's specific changes to those three frames skills previously.

 

Rhino for example was later used in place of Mag and Excal for a bit as was Saryn. Rhino's stomp causes a massive shockwave to rise from the ground raising all enemies in the vicinity. This skill it does not make sense to hold to a hard LoS. Whereas Saryn miissed getting nerfed while I felt that the poison should radiate out from a central location in which case the power SHOULD have been blocked by LoS and yet they mysteriously let it slide.

 

Honestly perhaps the trouble we face is bandaid fixes. Rather than review the entire mechanic system that allows for this type of energy loophole exploitation, they attempted instead to handicap specific frames. That is flawed thinking to resolve a symptom but ignore it's impetus.

You still haven't shown any evidence of how playing the game how people want to play it makes them leave.

 

Actions speak louder than words. Not to mention they said that a while back. And now, even after Vivergate, we have primed mods and Corrupteds coming out that actually strengthen powers, not weaken them.

 

You want to use Ember? HAHAHAHAHA! Oh my GOD! You realize she's one of THE MOST complained about Frames for being so weak!? Literally NOTHING in her kit has scale ability outside of Accelerant. And even that is only 4 seconds of blind with a buff to her powers that don't even work well when you're dealing with high armor and high shields/HP. "Properly Balanced" haha, oh please, give me a brake. You go tell that to all the Ember players. I DARE YOU to make a thread saying Embers ult is Balanced. See what the community thinks of that.

 

The only downside to his ult is that he can mark targets he cannot see? That isn't even a downside! It's a good thing! What is a downside is that it has a target limit. "quote as near perfect" haha, oh please, that was false outright. Perfect is a perspective, for you anyways. Go tell Ash players how his ult is "perfect" because it has a target limit, and he shouldn't be able to mark targets outside of his LoS, see what they say. They'll tell you otherwise, you can bet on that.

 

LoS doesn't work, for obvious reasons. It greatly hinders powers usefulness, is clunky outright, and not to mention negates the point of AoE powers. You're hitting an area, it shouldn't be unaffected if it's within the area I am hitting. They hit those frames with LoS because of Vivergate, we all know that, you can ask around the Forums as to why. Those three, used in tandem with one another, allowed players to grind rep very quickly. This isn't because they weren't playing the game "right", it's because they got fed up with how long it takes to gain rep with Syndicates. Now, we have the Syndicate system reworked to give more points, and we also got those changes reverted because of how horrible they were.

 

For the sake of humor, let's use your logic with how powers work to Saryns Ult. You think, that because she is emitting a cloud of poison around her, that hiding behind a crate stops the cloud from coming to you? Apparently I've been looking at the behavior of poisonous clouds all wrong, since air can't flow around objects and make contact with things behind cover. Yes, of course LoS makes sense for a skill that deals poisonous cloud damage that doesn't require sight to affect an area.

 

LoS doesn't work. It's even clunky on single target enemies because they have to be much farther out in the open to use. Look at Nekros' Soul Punch and all the threads about it to see why. LoS is horrible, it presents a plethora of problems.

[vaugahn]

LoS doesn't work. It's even clunky on single target enemies because they have to be much farther out in the open to use. Look at Nekros' Soul Punch and all the threads about it to see why. LoS is horrible, it presents a plethora of problems.

 

The problem with this argument is that you're basing your assessment off a flawed product. And you're confusing LoS with targeted. 

 

Obviously not every skill would get LoS, but that could actually provide more diversity among nuke skills. And diversity is good.

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem with this argument is that you're basing your assessment off a flawed product. And you're confusing LoS with targeted. 

 

Obviously not every skill would get LoS, but that could actually provide more diversity among nuke skills. And diversity is good.

You need LoS to activate Soul Punch. That's both targeting needed and LoS in nature.

 

How does this provide diversity? How does this provide good diversity?

[Azawarau]

You still haven't shown any evidence of how playing the game how people want to play it makes them leave.

 

Actions speak louder than words. Not to mention they said that a while back. And now, even after Vivergate, we have primed mods and Corrupteds coming out that actually strengthen powers, not weaken them.

 

You want to use Ember? HAHAHAHAHA! Oh my GOD! You realize she's one of THE MOST complained about Frames for being so weak!? Literally NOTHING in her kit has scale ability outside of Accelerant. And even that is only 4 seconds of blind with a buff to her powers that don't even work well when you're dealing with high armor and high shields/HP. "Properly Balanced" haha, oh please, give me a brake. You go tell that to all the Ember players. I DARE YOU to make a thread saying Embers ult is Balanced. See what the community thinks of that.

 

The only downside to his ult is that he can mark targets he cannot see? That isn't even a downside! It's a good thing! What is a downside is that it has a target limit. "quote as near perfect" haha, oh please, that was false outright. Perfect is a perspective, for you anyways. Go tell Ash players how his ult is "perfect" because it has a target limit, and he shouldn't be able to mark targets outside of his LoS, see what they say. They'll tell you otherwise, you can bet on that.

 

LoS doesn't work, for obvious reasons. It greatly hinders powers usefulness, is clunky outright, and not to mention negates the point of AoE powers. You're hitting an area, it shouldn't be unaffected if it's within the area I am hitting. They hit those frames with LoS because of Vivergate, we all know that, you can ask around the Forums as to why. Those three, used in tandem with one another, allowed players to grind rep very quickly. This isn't because they weren't playing the game "right", it's because they got fed up with how long it takes to gain rep with Syndicates. Now, we have the Syndicate system reworked to give more points, and we also got those changes reverted because of how horrible they were.

 

For the sake of humor, let's use your logic with how powers work to Saryns Ult. You think, that because she is emitting a cloud of poison around her, that hiding behind a crate stops the cloud from coming to you? Apparently I've been looking at the behavior of poisonous clouds all wrong, since air can't flow around objects and make contact with things behind cover. Yes, of course LoS makes sense for a skill that deals poisonous cloud damage that doesn't require sight to affect an area.

 

LoS doesn't work. It's even clunky on single target enemies because they have to be much farther out in the open to use. Look at Nekros' Soul Punch and all the threads about it to see why. LoS is horrible, it presents a plethora of problems.

Many players will leave when they hear their favorite OP thing is gone

 

Many will claim theyll leave and wont

 

Many will leave but shortly return

 

It happens every update more or less

 

>Nothing in her kit scales except accelerant

 

>Accelerant scales with all of her powers and weapons

 

>She gets saryn tier damage with her powers alone and more with guns

 

You have quite a bit to explain there

 

>LoS doesnt work for arguable opinions

 

Its supposed to hinder powers usefulness, Thats literally the idea. You have no point there. Clunkiness comes with the beta tag, itll be worked to be more functional. Can you not hit an area with LoS? Any reason why it shouldnt be affected or is your best argument "Because i said so"?

 

No, no and no and no it wasnt just because of Viver and you know that. It was an ongoing issue that was pointed out and argued long ago but became popularized by Viver and immediately brough to DEs attention as it was an exploit.

 

Laziness is not an excuse for bypassing the game system. Youre near admitting that youre doing it and giving a poor excuse to do so.

 

 

You need LoS to activate Soul Punch. That's both targeting needed and LoS in nature.

 

How does this provide diversity? How does this provide good diversity?

You dont need a targeted enemy for LoS is what he means

 

Youre literally using a bad example and expanding it to everything for your argument

[AlphaHorseman]

Many players will leave when they hear their favorite OP thing is gone

 

Many will claim theyll leave and wont

 

Many will leave but shortly return

 

It happens every update more or less

 

>Nothing in her kit scales except accelerant

 

>Accelerant scales with all of her powers and weapons

 

>She gets saryn tier damage with her powers alone and more with guns

 

You have quite a bit to explain there

 

>LoS doesnt work for arguable opinions

 

Its supposed to hinder powers usefulness, Thats literally the idea. You have no point there. Clunkiness comes with the beta tag, itll be worked to be more functional. Can you not hit an area with LoS? Any reason why it shouldnt be affected or is your best argument "Because i said so"?

 

No, no and no and no it wasnt just because of Viver and you know that. It was an ongoing issue that was pointed out and argued long ago but became popularized by Viver and immediately brough to DEs attention as it was an exploit.

 

Laziness is not an excuse for bypassing the game system. Youre near admitting that youre doing it and giving a poor excuse to do so.

 

 

You dont need a targeted enemy for LoS is what he means

 

Youre literally using a bad example and expanding it to everything for your argument

Accelerant allows her powers to increase damage output by 250%, you didn't factor in that her weapons don't help out when they're not fire damage weapons. It only affects fire weapons and powers. Now, factor in how enemies scale with increased armor, health, and shields, and it falls flat.

 

Exactly my point, LoS is directed at hurting powers. My point was given with the Saryn example, and also because the literal nature of Area of Effect is that you affect the entire area.

 

No one is bypassing the game system. What are you talking about?

 

Ok, I can see that with Nekros' 1. But remember that even with the LoS changes there was so much bad happening with it that powers that were good before became useless with it. Excaliburs Radial Javelin (oh god I hated with LoS applied to it) would miss enemies right in front of me, not 5 meters, but hit people farther away. I can see them, but they didn't get hit, it was a broken LoS system.

 

Apply that To Saryn, and how does that make any sense?

 

Apply that to Frosts Avalanche, and how does a Snow Storm not damage things simply because they are behind a pillar? I'm creating an elemental storm around myself, a box shouldn't provide you safety from a snow storm when you're not even inside the box, you're standing on one side of it.

 

This still provides no sense of good diversity. Nor is it something that I can actually say is a good change because it is, yet again, whacking on people who like to use their powers.

[Azawarau]

Accelerant allows her powers to increase damage output by 250%, you didn't factor in that her weapons don't help out when they're not fire damage weapons. It only affects fire weapons and powers. Now, factor in how enemies scale with increased armor, health, and shields, and it falls flat.

 

Exactly my point, LoS is directed at hurting powers. My point was given with the Saryn example, and also because the literal nature of Area of Effect is that you affect the entire area.

 

No one is bypassing the game system. What are you talking about?

 

Ok, I can see that with Nekros' 1. But remember that even with the LoS changes there was so much bad happening with it that powers that were good before became useless with it. Excaliburs Radial Javelin (oh god I hated with LoS applied to it) would miss enemies right in front of me, not 5 meters, but hit people farther away. I can see them, but they didn't get hit, it was a broken LoS system.

 

Apply that To Saryn, and how does that make any sense?

 

Apply that to Frosts Avalanche, and how does a Snow Storm not damage things simply because they are behind a pillar? I'm creating an elemental storm around myself, a box shouldn't provide you safety from a snow storm when you're not even inside the box, you're standing on one side of it.

 

This still provides no sense of good diversity. Nor is it something that I can actually say is a good change because it is, yet again, whacking on people who like to use their powers.

STOP

 

Have you used accelerant in high waves?

 

Have you used saryn? That with fire pretty much sums it up.

 

Have you used a decently modded weapon in high waves? Imagine that x7 for fire damage.

 

Are you going to use 250% <Unmodded boost> As your only example? Are we going to pretend weapons dont dominate enemies through 50 and accelerant pushes that further easily?

 

If youre an ember that didnt mod for fire its kinda your fault

 

Saryns power is limited to 15/23/35 meters. Excaliburs is something like 58 at max

 

Are you purposely going to ignore that? How about Mesas 50 meter play the game for me button or Mesas 70 meter kill everything on cerberus farm.

 

You seem to be going far off topic with this saryn LoS thing