Concerns Regarding The Sustainability Of Warframe.

[geninrising]

Initial post modified to include many different concerns as to ensure this is not proclaimed as simply a P42W thread.

Edited January 8, 2015 by geninrising

[420degreequicksopeswag]

The prime weapons have to overpowered to get people to buy prime access.

[YourBusDriver]

The prime weapons have to overpowered to get people to buy prime access.

 

My untimely nerf senses are tingling. 

[DrMeowmix]

Players love trivializing game content. For bragging rights, for fun, I dont know, they just do. Players around here are always looking for the fastest way to do anything, to exploit everything, for the best way to turn this game into a racing simulator.

For this reason warframe will be around for a long time. Its currently easily possible to exploit the game mechanics, and the players cry any time their precious cheating/exploiting is hampered.

Recently I played a T4 Def., there was an Excal and Ash there who wiped out the map in 1 to 2 uses of their ults. This made the game incredibly boring for me, while they merrily chatted about how great these boring tactics are.

This is the mentality that will keep Warframe alive, the repetitive fun-sucking monotonous playstyle players love.

And no, there's nothing DE can do about this, perfectly balancing everything doesnt even matter. Players are always going to look up a youtube video on how to build the maxxest dps build and use that always and forever if it even has a .0001 advantage over everything else.

You said it. You made it into words. I love you for forever.

[Nighttide77]

My 2 cents on the first post:

 

RNG - currently the way around all the mentioned problems, aside from resources, is trading with other players.  As long as trading with other players is an option, of which the current trading system helps stimulate people to buy plat instead of grind to trade for plat, I'm not sure DE would want to make the RNG wall any smaller.  Resource drops...that's a whole other story.

 

Ability Spam - massively controversial, but hopefully one good idea that sprouted from another thread might resolve the controversy in a way that works for everyone.

 

Balance - pretty much agree with everything, though that sort of information is already vaguely detailed on the wikis in the weapon comparison lists.  To an extent, it seems no regular weapon is to be on the same scale as Archwing weapons, given how the base damage of an Archwing melee is between 280-300, and the highest a regular melee gets is nowhere near that.

 

The last three topics I have nothing to add.

[geninrising]

 

Balance - pretty much agree with everything, though that sort of information is already vaguely detailed on the wikis in the weapon comparison lists.  To an extent, it seems no regular weapon is to be on the same scale as Archwing weapons, given how the base damage of an Archwing melee is between 280-300, and the highest a regular melee gets is nowhere near that.

 

The last three topics I have nothing to add.

 

AS far as balance goes we know there will not be equal statistics between AW and ground weaponry, that is on a whole other scale. What I am trying to get at is that at each portion of the game there should be an equally viable version of every type of weapon. Currently in the game we have weapons that are top tier of play capable and weapons that are not.

 

We have players having the ability to obtain top tier weapons before they SHOULD be able to for no better reason than MONEY. This causes an imbalance in the gear for more reasons that the sheer damage they can bring to the table. This causes 90% of all of teh gear in the game to be utterly worthless. 

 

That is a mark of an imbalance in every game. Imbalances lead to frustration for both the players, and the devs who want to produce new and interesting mechanics but then the players crap all over their ideas(Kohm).

 

So every time a new Prime is released the Devs must provide appropriately powerful armaments in order to drive said Prime Access. Thus creating yet another imbalance time and time again. 

 

I am unsure at this point what it would be possible for the devs to do in order to cure this balance issue that is further compounded with every prime release.

[Nighttide77]

AS far as balance goes we know there will not be equal statistics between AW and ground weaponry, that is on a whole other scale. What I am trying to get at is that at each portion of the game there should be an equally viable version of every type of weapon. Currently in the game we have weapons that are top tier of play capable and weapons that are not.

 

We have players having the ability to obtain top tier weapons before they SHOULD be able to for no better reason than MONEY. This causes an imbalance in the gear for more reasons that the sheer damage they can bring to the table. This causes 90% of all of teh gear in the game to be utterly worthless. 

 

That is a mark of an imbalance in every game. Imbalances lead to frustration for both the players, and the devs who want to produce new and interesting mechanics but then the players crap all over their ideas(Kohm).

 

So every time a new Prime is released the Devs must provide appropriately powerful armaments in order to drive said Prime Access. Thus creating yet another imbalance time and time again. 

 

I am unsure at this point what it would be possible for the devs to do in order to cure this balance issue that is further compounded with every prime release.

 

Well, that is kinda the point of a F2P model...  You can either grind to get the powerful weapons, get the plat to trade for the parts, or buy the prime weapons outright.  A good chunk of the weapons are locked behind the MR wall, while others are locked behind resource walls.

 

If MR doesn't actually gauge mastery of the game, what other gauge could the devs use to determine whether a player should be able to make prime weapons?  Perhaps how much of the solar system has been unlocked?  Or number of void missions completed?

 

Unfortunately, in so far as prime weapons, the business model and a gaming model that keeps the power weapons for end game don't seem to coincide.  Every other weapon could easily be put behind the MR wall.

 

As far as weapon 'types' that aren't viable for the current endgame, say T4 missions, which weapon types are there that can't do T4?  We've got lasers, bullets, explosives...umm...  We've also got a primed sword, heavy axe, polearm, staff...umm... Can't think of other stuff off the top of my head.  Or, am I misunderstanding what you mean by 'weapon types'?

[geninrising]

Well, that is kinda the point of a F2P model...  You can either grind to get the powerful weapons, get the plat to trade for the parts, or buy the prime weapons outright.  A good chunk of the weapons are locked behind the MR wall, while others are locked behind resource walls.

 

If MR doesn't actually gauge mastery of the game, what other gauge could the devs use to determine whether a player should be able to make prime weapons?  Perhaps how much of the solar system has been unlocked?  Or number of void missions completed?

 

Unfortunately, in so far as prime weapons, the business model and a gaming model that keeps the power weapons for end game don't seem to coincide.  Every other weapon could easily be put behind the MR wall.

 

As far as weapon 'types' that aren't viable for the current endgame, say T4 missions, which weapon types are there that can't do T4?  We've got lasers, bullets, explosives...umm...  We've also got a primed sword, heavy axe, polearm, staff...umm... Can't think of other stuff off the top of my head.  Or, am I misunderstanding what you mean by 'weapon types'?

 

Hmm I guess I miss-stated my thought. What I mean to say is that all TYPES of weapons should be equally viable for any given mission at any given difficulty and what we see in current "endgame"(ie: infinite content) is the fact that although they have changed melee through melee 2.0 Melee is still not capable of being ultimately useful once content scales up. This goes beyond melee but let me explain my thought on that first.

 

Melee currently has an insufficient risk versus reward balance due to the fact that it requires you to virtually stand there and let opponents shoot you or melee you in order to build combo multiplier which increases melee damage. Now beyond that once you have achieved a certain level of content it makes it purely suicidal to even attempt to build up combo meter except with 2 frames(possibly 3, but who plays Ash for full stealth?).

 

We need a further tweak to melee combo counters in order to bring melee's damage potential more in line with guns which right now both have the ability to outright out damage our melee and do so with much less risk.

 

Greater risk should equal greater reward. Warframe utilizes this risk versus reward mechanic or ideology in many different facets of our gameplay, however in the MOST risky endeavor you can commit to it is sincerely just lacking. Melee just feels like it has again missed it's mark. DE spoke of finally allowing melee to be a viable playstyle no matter what content you did, and yet guns still out damage it by far despite having very little risk involved.

 

As far as the rest of the weapon TYPES I was speaking of, We have a massive clear disparity between the overall amounts of damage late game weapons do. In some cases a gap of almost 10k dps/ Burst damage all within supposed end game weapons(Primes). Then again we have Clan weapons that for the most part are not very great themselves. We have low MR gear that is strong and high MR gear that is relatively weak.

 

Unfortunately there is no kind of logic to our weapon system in order to be able to balance it at all.

 

The only thing that stands out about our weapons system thus far is that you can just skip the fodder and get what you want FOR CASH.

 

Unfortunately no matter how you look at it that comes across as pay 2 win. I know the DEv's argument that it is pay for CONVENIENCE but that is not exactly the case. The fact that you do not even have to play the majority of the games content in order to immediately hop to the games final content and kick enemies behinds=pay to win. Money= no work and EXACTLY the same power(potentially more) than a player that has played for 2 years. That's an obscure way to label Warframe pay to win but it is accurate as money allows you to get all the gear to destroy all enemies in the game.

 

That's why I honestly think that Mastery should be the way to get the strongest gear in the game, however I think they could do with a little re-organization in the weapon system that would separate weapons into their core weapon types(ie: full auto rifles, burst rifles, sniper rifles, Bows,single shot pistols, machine pistols, etc) Then have true end game weapons be offered for sale on the market only to players that have mastered their particular class of weapon. For example, after maxing paris(includes mk1-paris, paris p,would not include dread as it is a special weapon) you would be able to purchase a special variant from the market that has stats that are all around better than every single other bow.

 

In this ideal system for weapons to count as mastered, it would need to be manually leveled not simply done passively. The benefit to this proposed system would be that in order to get to the gear you want you practice that style of gameplay. Thus you do not have to spend time playing in a way you don't want to(this maintains player choice in method of gameplay) while at the same time preventing players from having to mess with weapon types they do not enjoy to get to the rewards they want.

 

This idea would also be flexible enough with the way DE releases content to allow them to provide new weapons for both veterans and newer players. Say DE has this system in place and then decides to put out a new bow. Well when the new bow is released DE can decide on it's statistical value and where to place it within the normal hierarchy of weapons(Ie: not an end game weapon) they can then at some other point in time later add an upgrade for our MR bow to further increase it's capability bit by bit. 

 

The upgrade system would be key as it allows the players who have mastered their unique style of weapon to continually upgrade said weapon to keep it top tier thus saving themselves potatoes /forma and the frustration of having to start the whole potato and 5 forma routine that most of us do when we get a new weapon that we find is worthy.

 

At this point we can also re think how mastery rank works by making MR a notation of exactly how many types of gear you have physically MASTERED versus how much crap you have slogged around that you may or may not have used.

 

I believe that by making the MR system count for a large part of our experience they can make progression a real thing rather than some nebulous feature that is seen as absolutely unnecessary to the game. As a consequence of doing so we additionally ensure that pay 2 win absolutely never applies as the BEST gear is earned strictly through gameplay while the more convenient gear may not be the best but it certainly gets the job done and requires no work to obtain in game.

 

Someone that has just paid their way into the scene should never be as powerful as an individual that has dedicated 1k hrs to the game.

 

If anyone thinks they should not have to put in hard work to be the best they just have an entitled attitude and really don't add anything beneficial to the community.

Edited January 10, 2015 by geninrising

[ENIAK_Prime]

I mentioned the Ability Spam in my "What is WarFrame REALLY About?" topic a while back (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/360755-what-is-warframe-really-about/#entry4002483), got some good conversation about it, too.

Back on topic, though, my biggest problem with the mastery system right now is how you stop earning mastery the moment you're maxed out on all your equipment. Why do I stop gaining overall experience just because I continue to play with weapons I enjoy and worked hard to max out already? WarFrame is not only a grindfest, it is a grindfest that FORCES you to grind. You HAVE to keep making new stuff or you don't get mastery points.

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

 

You're forgetting two things: 1) if anyone can get the weapons for cash or grinding, then it isn't Pay2Win because no one will have more power than the other, and 2) business model.

 

Pay2Win means you buy a weapon that is more powerful than any other weapon gained in-game, and the only way to get said powerful weapon is through cash.  As well, the only way to progress in the game is by buying the powerful weapon for cash, which is absolutely not the case here.

 

If DE implemented your gaming progression idea, what solution do you have to allow them to continue to do business?  Free2Play is massively based on the idea that players can pay money to progress faster than if they mooched.  No player can completely progress in the game by only having the Boltor Prime, or Soma Prime.  They also need to get different warframes, some of which are locked behind MR.  What you're saying is that no one should be allowed to get stuff outright with cash.

 

I'm also just going to ignore your comment on full stealth Ash :-P

[geninrising]

You're forgetting two things: 1) if anyone can get the weapons for cash or grinding, then it isn't Pay2Win because no one will have more power than the other, and 2) business model.

 

Pay2Win means you buy a weapon that is more powerful than any other weapon gained in-game, and the only way to get said powerful weapon is through cash.  As well, the only way to progress in the game is by buying the powerful weapon for cash, which is absolutely not the case here.

 

If DE implemented your gaming progression idea, what solution do you have to allow them to continue to do business?  Free2Play is massively based on the idea that players can pay money to progress faster than if they mooched.  No player can completely progress in the game by only having the Boltor Prime, or Soma Prime.  They also need to get different warframes, some of which are locked behind MR.  What you're saying is that no one should be allowed to get stuff outright with cash.

 

I'm also just going to ignore your comment on full stealth Ash :-P

Pay2Win will be the model for WF IF the current trend of Dilution in drop tables is not addressed due to the fact that the drops will be nearly impossible for a user without a massive amount of time to spend farming. It will at some point become necessary to buy certain parts to be able to complete powerful gear to be able to contribute to the overall welfare of the team. Hence why I stated that some already consider it pay 2 win and I fear WF getting this kind of press due to the fact that it will drive away potential community members. I have not stated that I think WF IS pay to win but that it is getting that kind of reaction amongst gamers in various places.

 

Then at that point it becomes pay to win because you simply cannot compete DPS wise without the best gear/mods. Pay 2 win does not translate necessarily to being the best because of things you buy from the Market. It also takes into account the ability to buy the strongest items in the game without having to work for them. You are directly buying power thus P2W.

 

If the most powerful gear in the game was not available to trade(purchase) then it would not be possible even in the broadest sense to call WF any kind of pay 2 win platform.

 

As far as you claim that frames are MR locked, that extends to Rhino ONLY. There is no other frame in the game that is MR locked. Although I believe all Prime variants should be MR locked to ensure players have a goal to work towards. Another thing I thinnk that could allow WF to stay away from the above statements on pay 2 win is the ability to get more weapon slots and WF slots via MR. Currently WF slots are a strictly P2W system(trading for them is still someone paying for them, which points at a pay to win aspect).

 

DE's business model should focus in giving people goals to strive for in order to promote platinum purchasing. To this end I think that they should provide everything in game a MR restriction. It is fine to allow players to pay for convenience STRICTLY but allowing them to completely disregard the majority of the games content with their "purchase for convenience" model actually serves to remove player goals and reduces the longevity of players in game.

 

Perhaps if DE reduced our fight with an unbeatable opponent(RNG) I would not feel so much this way. However after 1000 hrs(active mission time, I do not leave the system logged in nor do I languish much in the liset be it spamming region chat or hang out much in relays) fighting RNG I feel I have ample experience with the matter.

 

In regards to the Stealth Ash comment, if you have met ANYONE that does so, how much overall contribution did said individual have to the overall benefit of any runs you made with them? I have attempted to run a stealth based Ash many times and it is underwhelming considering an all around build has much better utility and damage, while a Bladestorm build is the highest damage he can provide and still has some utility. Aside from that fact a Stealth build reduces the usefulness of all of his other abilities to a near useless state.

[geninrising]

We can also add event mods to this particular part of our discussion on pay2win.

 

Event mods are a large portion of the balance of power on any of our given weapons. These mods promote the idea that if you are new you will never be able to produce damage as high as every player that has been here before you and if you miss an event from here on out you will fall further and further behind the power curve. 

 

Thus a player must buy them from the trade chat or be sorely lacking in many different builds due to the necessity of said mods. Now you can argue that they will be put into game on a permanent basis EVENTUALLY but then players feel slighted just the same as people in general are impatient and thus feel compelled to buy said mods for the exorbitant prices found in the market(seriously 400 plat for the tethra, cryotic, gatecrash, breeding grounds mod sets).

 

That is a minimum of $25 USD for 4 mods which many players feel are absolutely necessary. If we calculated just those 4 mod sets together that is from $100 USD just to purchase the mods NECESSARY to become the strongest you can be. Yes it is necessary to pay 2 win if you happen to have the unfortunate luck of joining the game late.

 

Now if the Devs ensure that players can obtain said mods approximately 3 months after their initial introduction then yes it would be a case of pay for convenience but as it stands we wait approximately a year before they are re-released into various content.

 

On average however per my experience from clan members and friends most people have their fun killed by RNG long before a year happens thus the combination of inability to acquire items mounts up. So then it becomes pay 2 win or quit.

[HAYABU5A]

Players love trivializing game content. For bragging rights, for fun, I dont know, they just do. Players around here are always looking for the fastest way to do anything, to exploit everything, for the best way to turn this game into a racing simulator.

For this reason warframe will be around for a long time. Its currently easily possible to exploit the game mechanics, and the players cry any time their precious cheating/exploiting is hampered.

Recently I played a T4 Def., there was an Excal and Ash there who wiped out the map in 1 to 2 uses of their ults. This made the game incredibly boring for me, while they merrily chatted about how great these boring tactics are.

This is the mentality that will keep Warframe alive, the repetitive fun-sucking monotonous playstyle players love.

And no, there's nothing DE can do about this, perfectly balancing everything doesnt even matter. Players are always going to look up a youtube video on how to build the maxxest dps build and use that always and forever if it even has a .0001 advantage over everything else.

QFT ! well said

[geninrising]

QFT ! well said

Actually not so much and here's why. DE has already stated that these players are utilizing an energy loophole that was unanticipated. This is akin to an exploit and DE is formulating ideas to stop this constant spam. Sooo the whole thing about DE not being able to do anything about it is completely false as they can and will make whatever changes necessary to keep the gameplay within the scope of their vision and not allow what is outside the scope of said vision to interfere with their plans.

[Nighttide77]

-snip-

 

Oh, I didn't know Rhino was the only one with an MR wall...though, one might say with the current quest system that Mirage, Limbo, and Mesa are under a bit of a wall.  Sure a veteran can help a player climb that wall, but that does help bring players together.

 

Your definition of Pay2Win seems like it fits every other game that calls itself F2P.  At least in my experience.

 

Do you have an example of a successful F2P game that implemented your business model for player progression?

 

The prime weapons are also not required to progress through the game, nor the event mods.  The Soma P may have a 20% increase in damage over the regular Soma, but the regular Soma already deals top-tier damage and can get through T4 missions.

 

Event mods are also not required to progress through the game.  If anyone is going to compare players to players, then there is always going to be a difference between players who have been around for a while and players who just started.  However, a newer player can still keep up with veterans in a T4, provided the newer player understands the mechanics of the game and has the proper mods that are available.  If a new player is going to give up because they're comparing themselves to someone who's been around for a while, I'm not sure any MMO is for them.

 

The perspective that event mods are absolutely necessary is not supported with fact.  No player needs huge status chance or 120% extra slash damage to last 20min in a T4 Surv or other game modes.  Not even Nightmare modes.  I even have the slash damage set and never used it.

[Nighttide77]

In regards to the Stealth Ash comment, if you have met ANYONE that does so, how much overall contribution did said individual have to the overall benefit of any runs you made with them? I have attempted to run a stealth based Ash many times and it is underwhelming considering an all around build has much better utility and damage, while a Bladestorm build is the highest damage he can provide and still has some utility. Aside from that fact a Stealth build reduces the usefulness of all of his other abilities to a near useless state.

 

This is a bit off topic, but...what does your stealth build for Ash include?  Cuz...a stealth Ash player could stand in for a stealth Loki.  Loki may have a few more seconds of stealth, but that's seconds, not a couple dozen seconds.  My contribution as a stealth Ash comes in the form of reviving downed players and taking down hard targets.  With Narrow Minded, the stealth Ash just has to use Blade Storm in strategic situations where the targets are swarmed around an Eximus.  Teleport may be cut down, but it still maintains its functionality to open a heavy target up for a melee finisher.  Shuriken, being a damage ability, suffers no penalty other than range, but with stealth, a player can just get close enough to use it if that is desired.

 

Personally, using a good rifle or pistol more than makes up for the inability to just P42W with Blade Storm.

 

If you haven't run with a good Ash player, or have difficulty running a good Ash, yourself, it doesn't mean good Ash players don't exist :-P

[geninrising]

Oh, I didn't know Rhino was the only one with an MR wall...though, one might say with the current quest system that Mirage, Limbo, and Mesa are under a bit of a wall.  Sure a veteran can help a player climb that wall, but that does help bring players together.

 

Your definition of Pay2Win seems like it fits every other game that calls itself F2P.  At least in my experience.

 

Do you have an example of a successful F2P game that implemented your business model for player progression?

 

The prime weapons are also not required to progress through the game, nor the event mods.  The Soma P may have a 20% increase in damage over the regular Soma, but the regular Soma already deals top-tier damage and can get through T4 missions.

 

Event mods are also not required to progress through the game.  If anyone is going to compare players to players, then there is always going to be a difference between players who have been around for a while and players who just started.  However, a newer player can still keep up with veterans in a T4, provided the newer player understands the mechanics of the game and has the proper mods that are available.  If a new player is going to give up because they're comparing themselves to someone who's been around for a while, I'm not sure any MMO is for them.

 

The perspective that event mods are absolutely necessary is not supported with fact.  No player needs huge status chance or 120% extra slash damage to last 20min in a T4 Surv or other game modes.  Not even Nightmare modes.  I even have the slash damage set and never used it.

Oh you and I don't feel they are necessary to be strong but how does it look from a newer players perspective. The things I have provided as concerns are all reasons various players have quit the game over the holiday season and some of the reasons I have previously lost clan members again and again.

 

The point is they are CONCERNS as in things that worried my clan members into quitting, these things have no bearing on me as I am about to be MR 18 soon and I already have the things I need to level(barring AW, I cannot bring myself to play it to level the stuff). I also have all of the event weapons and mod sets barring the Latron Wraith/Brakk/and Prova Vandal. The only thing I can say thus far that I truly want is the Primed Chamber mod.

 

Please understand guys I am not here complaining or airing my own grievances any time I am here in the forums. The only thing I am here to do is point out problems that lose Warframe PLAYERS on a regular basis, at times I will attempt to provide a fix or maybe a direction DE might look for a bit of insight.

 

What I can say for sure is that any new player with these same concerns can come on the forums and not have to post his own grievances in the veins I bring up so that THEY do not have to deal with the bickering and derisive nature of many of our forum goers that automatically deny other players concerns due to bias. I don't care if you p42w, I don't care if you love Boltor Prime and think it needs to kill whole rooms with a single bullet.

 

However I do care that we are losing players for the reasons I outlined in the OP. Unfortunately we have a ton of players that do not care as long as their game stays the way it is.

 

I am an advocate for balance and for there to be a chance of balance compromise must be made. 

[geninrising]

More feedback please!

[Mazrim]

Players love trivializing game content. For bragging rights, for fun, I dont know, they just do. Players around here are always looking for the fastest way to do anything, to exploit everything, for the best way to turn this game into a racing simulator.

Recently I played a T4 Def., there was an Excal and Ash there who wiped out the map in 1 to 2 uses of their ults. This made the game incredibly boring for me, while they merrily chatted about how great these boring tactics are.

This is the mentality that will keep Warframe alive, the repetitive fun-sucking monotonous playstyle players love.

And no, there's nothing DE can do about this, perfectly balancing everything doesnt even matter. Players are always going to look up a youtube video on how to build the maxxest dps build and use that always and forever if it even has a .0001 advantage over everything else.

I'll tell you why. Because this game's content is Shoot Dude To Maybe Get Loot. The faster you Shoot Dude, the less time you waste derping about. I don't even bother with new prime weapons. I think the last prime weapon that I actually set out for was the Braton Prime before the buff. Everything else just showed up in my hands. Hell, I only do the solar map when I don't feel like carrying a group of randoms to get affinity for my gear.

[geninrising]

This is a bit off topic, but...what does your stealth build for Ash include?  Cuz...a stealth Ash player could stand in for a stealth Loki.  Loki may have a few more seconds of stealth, but that's seconds, not a couple dozen seconds.  My contribution as a stealth Ash comes in the form of reviving downed players and taking down hard targets.  With Narrow Minded, the stealth Ash just has to use Blade Storm in strategic situations where the targets are swarmed around an Eximus.  Teleport may be cut down, but it still maintains its functionality to open a heavy target up for a melee finisher.  Shuriken, being a damage ability, suffers no penalty other than range, but with stealth, a player can just get close enough to use it if that is desired.

 

Personally, using a good rifle or pistol more than makes up for the inability to just P42W with Blade Storm.

 

If you haven't run with a good Ash player, or have difficulty running a good Ash, yourself, it doesn't mean good Ash players don't exist :-P

I absolutely understand this but what I'm speaking of regarding this is that a stealth-centric Ash suffers many different negatives that an all around Ash does not, and in the case of a Bladestorm Ash comparison, Stealth Ash loses a TON of damage while the Bladestorm Ash loses half his utility.

 

Then we have to look at your thoughts on comparing Loki stealth base to Ashe Stealth base. My Loki gets 29 seconds(could be 35 if I maxed narrow minded 3 from the top, and primed continuity 1 from the top). My Ashe gets 19 seconds(could be 25 seconds approx if I maxed narrow minded currently 3 from the top, and Primed continuity 1 from the top) so either way that is a 10 second discrepancy and we also factor in the delay at the initial casting for Smokebomb. That's 2 points for Loki and 0 for Ash.

 

Now we factor in that Ash has 3 abilities that are weakened considerably by a duration build(assuming streamline and flow+redirection or Vitality by preference in both duration builds) due to needing to mod for a small amount of damage and range to even make his other skills usable and worthwhile(subjectively) for the cost. Loki on the other hand gets none of his abilities hampered and does not need to use any strength mods whatsoever, and so can use full stealth plus overextended and stretch thus giving all of his abilities higher than normal attributes with no actual negative states at all. That's 3 points for Loki.

So no Ash really cannot be as good of a stealth frame as Loki.

 

This again feeds into my concern of balance within the game, yes each frame should be unique and have a niche, however abuse of energy mechanics and abuse of min/maxing mechanics are potentially hazardous to the longevity of the game as I have stated before in our p42w conversations.

My fears regarding this matter coincide with the paradoxical behavior of DE Steve in his statements that the"Viver" playstyle which is p42w is "exploiting an energy loophole". Then down the pipe comes Primed continuity and Primed flow. Soon to be followed by prime streamline and prime stretch I'm sure.

 

This seems to condemn with one breath and then support with the next, thus bringing up my concern for DE's integrity.

 

There are many concerns we have regarding the game and it's longevity that must be addressed and I feel it is our right as consumers to have these fears addressed in more ways than the few questions answered on the livestreams cherry picked by DERebecca from the heads up post regarding Devstreams. 

 

All of the points I have broached in this topic have been hot topics over the last year and I feel we should have more insight into the workings to address these major community concerns.

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

[Nighttide77]

-Ash comparison snip-

 

Meh, we'll see what the devs do.  Words are cheap, as they say, and actions speak louder than words.

[geninrising]

Meh, we'll see what the devs do.  Words are cheap, as they say, and actions speak louder than words.

True

[Taranis49]

This.

This this this.

 

This game needs proper mini-boss type enemies that force players to stop and think about what they are doing.

 

The Grustag 3, Stalker, and Zanuka thing are good starting points, but every faction on every planet needs things like this.

 

While this reply's definitely late (and lengthy)... no, they aren't - at current, G3 potentially comes closest.

 

I've covered this in the past, but let's look at the grand-daddy of the bunch - Stalker. He used to be much closer to that back around U7/U8, because the player had options for how to deal with him.

 

For example, luring him into a pack of enemies and slipping away so they'd fight each other or evading him while sneaking around the level (god forbid, stealth as a viable alternative!) to complete the mission regardless while he was searching for you.

 

Hell, the encounter could completely change based on the environment, e.g. luring him into a room that could decompress on the Corpus ship tileset, sneaking out and blowing out the window to trap him in until he suffocated.

 

He was easily the most dynamic encounter in the game - it was entirely possible to succeed if you were on the ball. Hell, my most memorable (and fun) fights with him are the ones where I didn't actually kill him. You had the freedom to develop new plans and tactics for how to handle the battle (if you decided to engage at all). There was variety, spice of life, with that one enemy.

 

Then he eventually became a big ball of "No Fair! You can't do that!" cheese I'd expect of a five-year old that dumbed down the encounter to the old, stale standard of "carry good weapon, pump damage into him until he dies, oh and take cover at some point" to the point where he's little more than Lancer #688642 after eating a protein bar, actually worse in some respects since he's so overloaded with gimmicks that even core parts of the game such as frame choice are largely rendered irrelevant.

 

An engaging, fun challenge is one that allows the player to develop a range of novel, interesting solutions. It's one of the reasons the Shield Lancer's considered by quite a few folks to be one of the best designed enemies in the game prior to the abundance of punch-through. Immune to damage from the front? You have options - jump-kicking to knock him down, flanking, using an ability, placing accurate shots at areas the the shield doesn't cover...

 

Long and short - If they were engaging fights that weren't a three-second flash in a pan regardless of whether you win or lose I might agree, but as-is, there's basically been a concerted effort to just strip the fun and variety right out of 'em. I haven't had a memorable encounter with 'em since because they all typically go the same way the last one did.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Taranis49

[geninrising]

 

While this reply's definitely late (and lengthy)... no, they aren't - at current, G3 potentially comes closest.

 

I've covered this in the past, but let's look at the grand-daddy of the bunch - Stalker. He used to be much closer to that back around U7/U8, because the player had options for how to deal with him.

 

For example, luring him into a pack of enemies and slipping away so they'd fight each other or evading him while sneaking around the level (god forbid, stealth as a viable alternative!) to complete the mission regardless while he was searching for you.

 

Hell, the encounter could completely change based on the environment, e.g. luring him into a room that could decompress on the Corpus ship tileset, sneaking out and blowing out the window to trap him in until he suffocated.

 

He was easily the most dynamic encounter in the game - it was entirely possible to succeed if you were on the ball. Hell, my most memorable (and fun) fights with him are the ones where I didn't actually kill him. You had the freedom to develop new plans and tactics for how to handle the battle (if you decided to engage at all). There was variety, spice of life, with that one enemy.

 

Then he eventually became a big ball of "No Fair! You can't do that!" cheese I'd expect of a five-year old that dumbed down the encounter to the old, stale standard of "carry good weapon, pump damage into him until he dies, oh and take cover at some point" to the point where he's little more than Lancer #688642 after eating a protein bar, actually worse in some respects since he's so overloaded with gimmicks that even core parts of the game such as frame choice are largely rendered irrelevant.

 

An engaging, fun challenge is one that allows the player to develop a range of novel, interesting solutions. It's one of the reasons the Shield Lancer's considered by quite a few folks to be one of the best designed enemies in the game prior to the abundance of punch-through. Immune to damage from the front? You have options - jump-kicking to knock him down, flanking, using an ability, placing accurate shots at areas the the shield doesn't cover...

 

Long and short - If they were engaging fights that weren't a three-second flash in a pan regardless of whether you win or lose I might agree, but as-is, there's basically been a concerted effort to just strip the fun and variety right out of 'em. I haven't had a memorable encounter with 'em since because they all typically go the same way the last one did.

 

This is accurate. Unfortunately the limiting factors of WF are beginning to pile up. We not only have enemies that are completely ignorant no matter their level( a level 200 enemy still falls into the same behavior as a level 1 enemy), we also have the majority of our difficulty in game set as a pseudo-difficulty. IE: periods of invulnerability or outright invulnerability to powers.

 

In addition to that we have things that are immune to critical hits which is a large portion of damage type for certain weapons, as well as the ability to trivialize the majority of the games content through use of an energy system that is thus far quite imbalanced. The imbalance in the energy system that I speak of is the fact that recently(over the last year or less) there have been many implementations to combat  the press 4 to win issue. 

 

Said implementations have had a detrimental effect to beginner players that are unable to be prepared to counter these implementations in either their weapons or in respect to their energy pool. To be fair these enemies also affect players that do not specialize in efficiency rather heavily.

 

Thus my statement that said implementations are a cause for concern due to the fact that they actually impact players built to spam less than everyone else in the game, and yet they were implemented to combat power usage.

[geninrising]

Edited OP to include concerns regarding player retention due to implementation of enemies to combat various farming techniques and their impact on newer players. Also removed unfounded statements regarding intentions and behaviors of player implementing said tactics.

 

I hereby apologize publicly for my previous remarks stating that p42w players are intentionally ruining games for other players, rather than simply using the best available method to perform an otherwise onerous task.