Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[11.11.11]

 

 

 

Rollers actually impart next to no damage to you whatsoever. You will never die because of the direct damage a Roller imparts on you.

 

 

Correction. They do. 

 

I was in a intense firefight not more than 20 minutes ago, and at 0 sheilds and 60 health a grinder side-swiped me from behind and I died. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Warframe isn't balanced around the solo experience. And in my opinion, it never should be. It's meant to be a cooperative game, and Rollers are much more easily combated with group of Tenno. You can still solo, but until DE finds a way to (or even wants to) balance the single-player experience, you will be soloing content meant for more than one player, and the game should not change to reflect those experiences.

 

 

Solo mode is in the game. Ie: It is part of the game. The game is MEANT to have a solo mode. So it should be just as balanced as the Online or Private modes. Your opinion doesn't really make a lot of sense. No offence.

 

 

 

 

If a Roller staggers you, you've already lost your opportunity to use your player skill, but you will be presented with more opportunities. Rollers spend 99% of their life attempting to get to you, and with the Tenno's wide range of mobility options, you can extend that time indefinitely, or just off the sucker before he even has a chance. The time prior to the Roller buffing your bottom is your window of opportunity to use and abuse your skill as a player, not after it has already punished you for poor play.

 

What you call workarounds, I call strategy through gameplay. Is shooting a Grineer Lancer in the face instead of the foot a workaround to you? It's a problem to kill Grineer Lancers in any other fashion, as they have heavy armor in every area but the head. Rollers aren't problems, they are enemies, just like other Grineer. It's not a workaround when you deal with a challenge imparted to you by a unit that uses a different style of attack against you in a different manner than other units.

 

Removal of the Roller's stun would only serve to make its entire purpose worthless and irrelevant. No other Grineer unit type does what Rollers do. Having Rollers simply do damage is just a removal of variety. Every single Grineer unit aside from the Roller specializes in dealing damage to you; Warframe needs MORE variety, not less of it, and stagger effects in this manner accomplish that task.

 

 

 

This is all very fine and reasonable. But when a Grineer lancer leaps out from behind a closed door - I can backflip out of his range and shoot him. Or I can block and counterattack. 

When two grinders leap out from behind a door, the first one stuns me, and after I recover, the second one does, and on and on until I'm put out of my misery. I'm not complaining about the variety grinders add - or that they're imbalanced when they're rolling towards me in a straight line - because there are counters available for that. My issue is with the instances where they are within melee range, and my options are severally limited. Removed entirely if they've already stunned me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because an enemy is of low HP does not make it inherently more or less lethal or docile. The unit type is different from your average Grineer; Rollers are essentially in the same class of special unit that Heavy Gunners and Grineer Commanders stand upon, the only difference being that both Heavy Gunners and Grineer Commanders are simply dealt with in a much easier with less required work. In my opinion, DE should buff both Heavy Gunners and Commanders to the point where I actually have to worry about them in the same fashion that I worry about Rollers with. The fact that their HP is low doesn't mean they should be easy to deal with universally, only that they have a weakness that matches their strengths; in the Rollers case, their biggest weakness just happens to be bullets, with good aim and proper strategy.

 

Rollers don't force players to do anything, either. It, again, comes down to player skill. If I see Rollers coming, I immediately switch my attention to them and, depending on the environment and distance at which I've spotted them, can deal with them quite handily. I'm not forced to run away from them, I make the choice to run away from them if I feel it is the best strategy for dealing with them, or I use a skill, or I just simply sidestep them and pop them on the turn-around. It depends on my surroundings, my level of skill and my confidence in the situation. The level of the players skill will directly affect which strategies they will use when dealing with Rollers, and there isn't a single set of strategies that apply to everyone beyond "you gotta kill it". Players who are less-than-efficient with their weapons may jump on boxes. Other players may pop two Rollers at once with a single puncture Paris arrow while wallrunning.

 

Rollers also do not spawn nearly as often as Runners and Chargers. Not even close. They appear rather infrequently unless the random spawns deal you an unlucky card... but even in this case, you still have all the tools needed to deal with it.

 

 

 

If you'd read my post you'd have noticed I wasn't arguing that grinders are somehow more or less lethal due to their low HP. I was highlighting the irritation felt by some people at using a high power skill on a low priority target, because many feel their hand is essentially forced. 

And again - this keyword. "Skill".

When you immediately start targeting all incoming grinders - what do you do about the 4-8 Grakata-wielding Grineer behind them? The 2 commando's flanking them with Kraken's? The Sheild Lancer about to whack you in the back? 

Sidestepping works when you have only one grinder to worry about - rarely is this the case - and grinders can in fact stun you mid-roll. 

 

The problem isn't the tools or our skill with them. It's that someone keeps whipping the workbench out from under us. Either it's the spawns, or the nature of the grinders themselves. 

Edited May 2, 2013 by 11.11.11

[MoonicusMaximus]

Okay, first off, if anything's "job" is to be annoying, then its job is STUPID and nothing should be doing that job. Second, you cannot differentiate between challenge and annoyance. A challenge is fun. Annoyance is not. A challenge seems fair, an annoyance does not.

 

Actually, I can differentiate between challenge and annoyance that is experienced by most players with Rollers pretty easily. Rollers present variety and challenge through their use as a disruptive element to compliment the Grineer, and in this way they provide fun through challenge presented. The annoyance, in this case the stagger, is what happens when the player has already failed to properly deal with the Rollers. Rollers are only annoying to people when they have already failed to defeat them without being hit by their attacks, otherwise they provide a sometimes-surprise situation that must be quickly adapted to or the player is dealt a punishment for their inability to do so.

 

By claiming that someone who wants an annoyance removed wants enemies to "facilitate your enjoyment through directly tickling you and dropping money" is, well, it's not even stupid, you are lying and you know you are lying.

 

The example was an exaggeration, but I matched an exaggeration to meet your own. If a bunch of players say something is annoying and needs to be removed, that doesn't automatically make them right. It's only their singular perspective that is obviously not shared unanimously.

 

What I am claiming is that, instead of trying to get better at the game, which has proven to be entirely possible by plenty of people who have next to no issues with Roller's functionality and gameplay elements, some would rather the challenge presented to them be removed entirely, which is factually harmful to any game. I don't want to call it laziness on the part of the player, but that is sure what it sounds like, to me. Everyone is capable of getting better at Warframe to the point where Roller's become less of a problem, but apparently not everyone is willing to put in the effort... in which case, they shouldn't be rewarded.

 

 

Dark Souls is challenging. Bayonetta is challenging. XCOM is challenging. Each of those games are hard, but when something bad happens to you, it is something that you could have prevented with better play and (this is important) it doesn't deform how you play the game and the penalty isn't drastically out of proportion to what you did wrong.

 

That is exactly what the situation with Rollers is, though. The exact situation. You CAN prevent being hit by Rollers through better play. It DOESN'T deform how you play the game, because the tools you use to prevent Rollers hitting you are the same tools you are using for the entire game. The penalty ISN'T drastically out of proportion to what you did wrong, because they are extremely low-HP enemies and they do not do something ridiculous like kill you in one hit, they merely stagger you for a very short time and do next to no damage.

 

 Avoiding something terrible doesn't require you to suddenly switch around behavior that, until now, had been how you play the game well. If you want an enemy that breaks up the pattern of Grineer and requires better tactics to fight, then you should ask for an enemy that isn't so annoying and unfair and doesn't work by taking your ability to play the game away. 

 

Avoiding something terrible doesn't require you to suddenly switch around behavior that, until now, had been how you play the game well? I'm not sure I understand your wording here; are you saying that Rollers, as a special unit, should not provide variety in gameplay against the Grineer and that I should deal with them in the same fashion as I deal with hordes of other Grineer, which optimally is to safely wait behind cover and dispatch them with headshots? Because that not only sounds incredibly boring, but it provides next to no expanded substance to the gameplay and would only serve to harm the game rather than help it. Grineer are notoriously easy to deal with as it is on a fundamental level. They definitely don't need any less variety in their gameplay mechanics.

 

And I do want more enemies that present wider challenge, in addition to Rollers. As they currently are, because I like and enjoy the challenge imparted by their presence. I personally think Heavy Gunners shouldn't be affected by Freeze mods and should have their firing rate and spin-up speed increase 100% while their enemy tracking is improved dramatically. As they are now, Heavy Gunners cannot kill players in outright DPS because they take so long to acquire you as a target and begin attacking you, which is compounded by the fact that freeze mods affect them. I think Bombardiers and Flamers need the same treatment. These are all special units that are SUPPOSED to affect and change your gameplay, but as they are now, they are dealt with in the same manner as other Grineer. I want to have to worry about poking my head out when a Heavy Gunner is in the center of a room. I want to have to worry about a Bombardier on the opposite end of a chasm. I want to have to worry about being in cover in front of a Heavy Gunner and then I hear a Roller's grinding sound coming at me. Right now, Rollers are the only decent challenge imparted that isn't artificially overblown from just increased health and damage numbers. The fact that some people want them removed so that NO Grineer enemy provides challenge baffles me.

 

 

Correction. They do. 

 

I was in a intense firefight not more than 20 minutes ago, and at 0 sheilds and 60 health a grinder side-swiped me from behind and I died.

 

I knew somebody would take that out of context. Yes, yes, Rollers do have the ability to down you, but it will never be because they alone chopped you down. Unless you are really just that bad at the game, in which case I would say you need more practice.

 

In your situation, however, I see that 20 minutes ago, you were in a firefight and were not situationally aware enough to react to a Roller. Given that it was from behind, it's understandable and lamentable, but is not broken and not overpowered because you put yourself into that position on your own. The Roller just sealed the deal.

 

Solo mode is in the game. Ie: It is part of the game. The game is MEANT to have a solo mode. So it should be just as balanced as the Online or Private modes. Your opinion doesn't really make a lot of sense. No offence.

 

Solo mode is in the game. It was meant to have a solo mode. It should be balanced in relation to online or private modes.

 

However, right now, in this beta, it is not. All maps and levels are balanced for cooperative play. Changing or removing Rollers will not change that. Reduced rates of special unit spawns in relation to players present potentially would. If you want balance for your solo experience, I suggest you ask in a new thread, because that is not the point of this one.

 

This is all very fine and reasonable. But when a Grineer lancer leaps out from behind a closed door - I can backflip out of his range and shoot him. Or I can block and counterattack. 

When two grinders leap out from behind a door, the first one stuns me, and after I recover, the second one does, and on and on until I'm put out of my misery. I'm not complaining about the variety grinders add - or that they're imbalanced when they're rolling towards me in a straight line - because there are counters available for that. My issue is with the instances where they are within melee range, and my options are severally limited. Removed entirely if they've already stunned me.

 

2 rollers will not chain-stagger you continuously until you are dead. They might stagger you for a couple seconds, but they are not programmed to assist other Rollers in keeping players pinned indefinitely. You will be released in time, but that time is largely random.

 

Why were you near a door with two Rollers near it anyway? Did you not have enemy radar? That's understandable, but if you're playing solo (which I assume is the case), Enemy Radar functions are extremely important and you should consider using this available method of countering surprise attacks to your advantage. That would be the wiser choice than, for example, 1 energy every 2 seconds, in solo play at least. You also could have easily heard them behind the doors; they make very distinguishable sounds.

 

Situational awareness is something everyone can work on, including myself.

 

 

If you'd read my post you'd have noticed I wasn't arguing that grinders are somehow more or less lethal due to their low HP. I was highlighting the irritation felt by some people at using a high power skill on a low priority target, because many feel their hand is essentially forced. 

I read your post. You make the assumption that Rollers are low priority targets, yet you go out of your way to display that you find them troublesome. Why would you not give priority to troublesome targets (Rollers) over those of lower priority (Lancers)? THAT is the point I am trying to get across. Just because Rollers have low HP doesn't mean you can or should ignore them. Their HP is not relational to their ability to threaten you, it is a weakness that you, as the player, are meant to exploit.

 

Nobody is forcing you or other players to use abilities, but they ARE available to you, and it IS an option that you can consider.

 

And again - this keyword. "Skill".

When you immediately start targeting all incoming grinders - what do you do about the 4-8 Grakata-wielding Grineer behind them? The 2 commando's flanking them with Kraken's? The Sheild Lancer about to whack you in the back? 

Sidestepping works when you have only one grinder to worry about - rarely is this the case - and grinders can in fact stun you mid-roll. 

 

Ah, a multi-tiered situation like that is indeed hairy. But with sufficient player skill and awareness of enemies and the players own abilities, it's manageable. You are meant to adapt to situations like this; in this situation, it's most likely best to deal with the Grinders and the Shield Lancer first, obviously because of their ability to stagger you to the point where the Lancers and Commanders can deal damage to you with impunity. That can be done in a number of ways, the safest of which is relocating to an area out of line of fire from the Lancers and Commanders to combat the Rollers and Shield Lancers. Alternatively, you CAN (but are not forced to) use an ability to dramatically change the situation, as they are meant to be used.

 

Skill determines whether or not you are capable of doing any of this, from quickly and efficiently analyzing the situation to actually performing the movement and gunplay necessary. More skill naturally makes challenges more simple to defeat, and challenges are meant to train our skills as they are presented to us.

 

The problem isn't the tools or our skill with them. It's that someone keeps whipping the workbench out from under us. Either it's the spawns, or the nature of the grinders themselves. 

 

In your case in a solo experience, that someone whipping the workbench out from under you is yourself, for choosing the mode when you know the risks. It can be the spawns, as they are not balanced around solo play. It is not Rollers themselves.

Edited May 2, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[AndryB94]

Woah, woah.... Okay..... I didn't know I'd accidentally start a WWIII by creating a thread....

Now, I read through all of this. Sadly for you guys I won't be able to quote everybody - I don't like huge walltexts.

First of all, I wouldn't want removal without some sort of replacement - straight-out removing Grinders is stupid. There should be something that would replace them.

Second of all, I don't want a nerf. All things considered they aren't that strong. IF you seee them coming, they're actually relatively easy to take care of. I've noticed jump attacking (not onto them, though) works just fine, but you still have a chance of being stunned just before you land. Which sucks.

I made this thread hoping I could gather different opinions and also see what people thought of rollers/grinders, really. At the beginning I actually got a few interesting ideas (I suggest all "newcomers" to read the first page, mostly), but then it became a fight between "Grinders are just annoying and just break the game" and "Grinders are actually a challenge, if you fell into their attacks then you're a noob".

Now, from the OP's point of view: I personally don't find Grinders challenging. They are a nuisance, that's all. Sometimes they make you rethink your strategy (run back or go on a box), but sometimes they're just an utter pain in the back, especially if a case of back spawning happens and you litterally have no choice (either jump into grineer or jump into grineer AND grinders).

One of the ideas involved a change in how they move and work, while keeping the base concept intact. I really liked it . It's one of the first 10 posts, sadly I forgot which one, so I suggest you check it out. :P

Also, another thing [EDIT]

Maximus... Please please please try and make your posts a little bit shorter. I've got nothing to say against you, but I got a headache after the second walltext.

People, stop downvoting Maximus only for saying his opinion. I don't 100% agree with him, but that's no reason for a downvote - not without saying why or actually telling him.

Edited May 2, 2013 by AndryB94

[MoonicusMaximus]

Maximus... Please please please try and make your posts a little bit shorter. I've got nothing to say against you, but I got a headache after the second walltext.

 

Sorry. But I'm making an argument, and to do that, I need to properly state my position. Sometimes that takes a lot of words and example. I also hate quoting in single blocks and replying to multiple sections from that solid quote-block; it's needlessly confusing.

 

People, stop downvoting Maximus only for saying his opinion. I don't 100% agree with him, but that's no reason for a downvote - not without saying why or actually telling him.

 

Downvotes are meant for actual inherently bad posts. People of differing opinions seem to mistake disagreement for inherently bad.

 

And my opinions are not popular in the vicinity of this thread, meant for people who specifically hate Rollers.

 

So I really don't pay much mind to a tiny number in the corner of my posts. It doesn't make my points any less valid.

[AndryB94]

Sorry. But I'm making an argument, and to do that, I need to properly state my position. Sometimes that takes a lot of words and example. I also hate quoting in single blocks and replying to multiple sections from that solid quote-block; it's needlessly confusing.

 

Downvotes are meant for actual inherently bad posts. People of differing opinions seem to mistake disagreement for inherently bad.

 

And my opinions are not popular in the vicinity of this thread, meant for people who specifically hate Rollers.

 

So I really don't pay much mind to a tiny number in the corner of my posts. It doesn't make my points any less valid.

Fair enough. I hope you do know that, sadly, you won't achieve much? At least not by talking to people who already have a fixed idea on the concept.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Fair enough. I hope you do know that, sadly, you won't achieve much? At least not by talking to people who already have a fixed idea on the concept.

 

Yeah, I know. I like to debate, that might be a part of it. I also hope that people who are reading this thread and are unaware of the issue at hand (or maybe even DE, who knows) see both sides of the coin, rather than a single one. It is a topic for discussion, after all.

[Heartsatyr]

Maybe give them a slowing effect? So they get close to you and Just chill or latch onto you, imparing your movement. So you'd have to aim strait down to hit them.

[Huitzil]

 

Avoiding something terrible doesn't require you to suddenly switch around behavior that, until now, had been how you play the game well? I'm not sure I understand your wording here; are you saying that Rollers, as a special unit, should not provide variety in gameplay against the Grineer and that I should deal with them in the same fashion as I deal with hordes of other Grineer, which optimally is to safely wait behind cover and dispatch them with headshots? Because that not only sounds incredibly boring, but it provides next to no expanded substance to the gameplay and would only serve to harm the game rather than help it. Grineer are notoriously easy to deal with as it is on a fundamental level. They definitely don't need any less variety in their gameplay mechanics.

 

And I do want more enemies that present wider challenge, in addition to Rollers. As they currently are, because I like and enjoy the challenge imparted by their presence. I personally think Heavy Gunners shouldn't be affected by Freeze mods and should have their firing rate and spin-up speed increase 100% while their enemy tracking is improved dramatically. As they are now, Heavy Gunners cannot kill players in outright DPS because they take so long to acquire you as a target and begin attacking you, which is compounded by the fact that freeze mods affect them. I think Bombardiers and Flamers need the same treatment. These are all special units that are SUPPOSED to affect and change your gameplay, but as they are now, they are dealt with in the same manner as other Grineer. I want to have to worry about poking my head out when a Heavy Gunner is in the center of a room. I want to have to worry about a Bombardier on the opposite end of a chasm. I want to have to worry about being in cover in front of a Heavy Gunner and then I hear a Roller's grinding sound coming at me. Right now, Rollers are the only decent challenge imparted that isn't artificially overblown from just increased health and damage numbers. The fact that some people want them removed so that NO Grineer enemy provides challenge baffles me.

 

Because nobody wants them removed "so that NO Grineer enemy provides challenge". That's a lie, and you know it is a lie, and WE know that it's a lie, so why bother telling it? To momentarily appear smarter and more in control than those awful noobs who complain about a thing?

 

They should be removed because being stunlocked is not fun. The penalty for missing an enemy with a small hitbox, perfect turning, and no windup animation should not be "stunlocked for some random amount of time". Stunlock is death, because it's the same result: you don't get to play the game. Stunlock is worse than death, because you don't get to play the game, but you also feel like you should, and you're still getting shot while helpless.

 

Once again, there can be an enemy that makes Grineer more challenging that isn't a terrible and terribly-designed enemy like the current Rollers. You want things forcing players out of cover? Okay, make it so some Grineer roller mines roll up to you, pop out spikes, and project a bubble that deals constant electrical damage. Now a roller gets you, you have to move away out of your advantageous position, but it doesn't stunlock you and you can still get away from it. Make it so the mini sticky mines thrown by Seekers don't blow up, they paint you as a target and make enemies lock on to you and start firing faster. Give Grineer back-rank medic units or shield projectors that force you to flank a group to get at the vulnerable one, because a head-on shootout just lets them heal. Do something that doesn't involve stunlocking, because stunlocking is awful.

[11.11.11]

 

2 rollers will not chain-stagger you continuously until you are dead. They might stagger you for a couple seconds, but they are not programmed to assist other Rollers in keeping players pinned indefinitely. You will be released in time, but that time is largely random.

 

Why were you near a door with two Rollers near it anyway? Did you not have enemy radar? That's understandable, but if you're playing solo (which I assume is the case), Enemy Radar functions are extremely important and you should consider using this available method of countering surprise attacks to your advantage. That would be the wiser choice than, for example, 1 energy every 2 seconds, in solo play at least. You also could have easily heard them behind the doors; they make very distinguishable sounds.

 

Yes they will. They have had two grinders chain-stagger me, until either they, or the grineer around them - kill me. They don't need the programming to assist, they both independantly lock onto me and just keep stunlocking. 

 

Why was I near a door with two grinders? Because I had to go through to get to the objective? No I don't have enemy radar, and when the game provides that as a random drop none of the missions can be based off the assumption that players will have it. 

 

 

 

 

I suggest you ask in a new thread, because that is not the point of this one.

 

 

Says the person who brought up spawn rates in the first place -_-

 

 

 

I read your post. You make the assumption that Rollers are low priority targets, yet you go out of your way to display that you find them troublesome. Why would you not give priority to troublesome targets (Rollers) over those of lower priority (Lancers)? THAT is the point I am trying to get across. Just because Rollers have low HP doesn't mean you can or should ignore them. Their HP is not relational to their ability to threaten you, it is a weakness that you, as the player, are meant to exploit.

 

 

Because if I want to stay alive RIGHT NOW - I have to give priority to the snipers, lancers and commando's currently shooting at me. I'm not ignoring them because of their HP - I'm ignoring them because they're not killing me at this instant. Sure I can multi-task, I can take note of where they are, and where they're heading, while taking down my attackers, but my gun dosn't shoot in two directions at once. 

 

 

Ah, a multi-tiered situation like that is indeed hairy. But with sufficient player skill and awareness of enemies and the players own abilities, it's manageable. You are meant to adapt to situations like this; in this situation, it's most likely best to deal with the Grinders and the Shield Lancer first, obviously because of their ability to stagger you to the point where the Lancers and Commanders can deal damage to you with impunity. That can be done in a number of ways, the safest of which is relocating to an area out of line of fire from the Lancers and Commanders to combat the Rollers and Shield Lancers. Alternatively, you CAN (but are not forced to) use an ability to dramatically change the situation, as they are meant to be used.

 

 

No really? I as a player have to adapt to hairy situations? You don't say...

 

Really Moonicus - I respect you perspective, and for your courtesy in remaining as impartial about your points as possible. I can see, how, in many cases, my negative experiences with grinders, can largely be attributed as my own fault. The problem is, everything about the game can be simplified in that manner. Technically one could say that ANY bad experience in Warframe, is the players own fault for logging into the game in the first place. 

 

But that dosn't get DE the feedback it needs to improve the game - and at this stage in it's development, the game needs to be considering ways to make itself accessible to players of many different denominations. I don't really see that it's the time to be adding or removing content on the basis that "players just need to get better". Instead we and DE should be thinking, "how can this be made more accessible." How can we make this enemy challenging, but rewarding -  and the best way to do that is to provide multiple ways to combat them. I don't see we yet have that with grinders.  

[11.11.11]

Yeah, I know. I like to debate, that might be a part of it. I also hope that people who are reading this thread and are unaware of the issue at hand (or maybe even DE, who knows) see both sides of the coin, rather than a single one. It is a topic for discussion, after all.

 

If I didn't like to debate - I would have called you a "hater" and stopped replying ages ago.

 

 

I'm glad we can have a resonable adult discussion - which will at least generate some thoughts in our readers. 

[Tango_alone]

а на русском языке кто нибудь говорит?

[Heartsatyr]

а на русском языке кто нибудь говорит?

Exactly.

[AftieI]

Because nobody wants them removed "so that NO Grineer enemy provides challenge". That's a lie, and you know it is a lie, and WE know that it's a lie, so why bother telling it? To momentarily appear smarter and more in control than those awful noobs who complain about a thing?

 

They should be removed because being stunlocked is not fun. The penalty for missing an enemy with a small hitbox, perfect turning, and no windup animation should not be "stunlocked for some random amount of time". Stunlock is death, because it's the same result: you don't get to play the game. Stunlock is worse than death, because you don't get to play the game, but you also feel like you should, and you're still getting shot while helpless.

 

Once again, there can be an enemy that makes Grineer more challenging that isn't a terrible and terribly-designed enemy like the current Rollers. You want things forcing players out of cover? Okay, make it so some Grineer roller mines roll up to you, pop out spikes, and project a bubble that deals constant electrical damage. Now a roller gets you, you have to move away out of your advantageous position, but it doesn't stunlock you and you can still get away from it. Make it so the mini sticky mines thrown by Seekers don't blow up, they paint you as a target and make enemies lock on to you and start firing faster. Give Grineer back-rank medic units or shield projectors that force you to flank a group to get at the vulnerable one, because a head-on shootout just lets them heal. Do something that doesn't involve stunlocking, because stunlocking is awful.

I've -never- been stunlocked by rollers, EVER, ive had 6 in one room little trying to kill me... all i had to do was hit my 3 as Ember and bam, they all die trying to get to me or as they pass, you always have time to do something -always- if you stand there and try to draw a bead yes you're gonna get stunned before you get a shot off, so don't do that, do something else, use slash dash if you're excalibur, do -something- to save yourself put distance between yourself and the rollers its not difficult they are not broken/imbalanced/overpowered/annoying/anything else they are just there to change the make up of an otherwise dull fight with more grineer.

[Madotsuki]

I've -never- been stunlocked by rollers, EVER, ive had 6 in one room little trying to kill me... all i had to do was hit my 3 as Ember and bam, they all die trying to get to me or as they pass,

In that case you may as well say since you can just use your AoE ult every time a Roller pops up they are perfectly balanced and everyone should STFU. What happens when i'm a Trinity, hmm? No AoEs there! Should I just die then?

 

Why can't you people accept that the Roller is not challenging? It doesn't provide anything interesting to the table. All it does is take away from the gameplay. It has no distinct attack pattern. It doesn't interact with the environment. All it does is constantly roll at and stagger you repeatedly every time it so much as gently bumps against your ankle. And when there are more than 3, the only way out is to either mash the AoE button or hope they let you jump on a box, at which point the other dozen grineers immediately turn you into mince meat.

 

I used to despise Shield Lancers and their knockdown shield bashes. I still do. But they are FUN to fight. I can run around them to make them stop charging. I can charge them in turn with melee in a duel to see who gets the hit. A Mag can even use an ability to yank his shield off. When you are bashed by a Shield Lancer, you are punished for it fairly, but in turn it is FUN to fight a Shield Lancer, because there are multiple ways of counter-attacking.

 

The Rollers however do not provide that kind of fun. They are punishing without being an actual challenge. When your best hopes of killing a Roller is to hide on a box like an old woman hiding from a mouse (given that there are no Grineers around, which there are 90% of the time) or spray bullets at their general direction hoping their AI bugs out and they randomly get stuck on something, you know something is wrong with this enemy.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Furyion]

only rushers have issues. Weapons utilized against teno..deal with it suck it up.

[Madotsuki]

only rushers have issues. Weapons utilized against teno..deal with it suck it up.

Oh it's about rushers again all of a sudden? If anything rushers AREN'T affected by Rollers, because they run past EVERYTHING. Why don't you get off your high horse of "Everyone should just learn to be as 1337 as me" and actually give some constructive feedback? I don't like Moonicus, but at least he TRIES to explain his point. Telling people to "STFU and lrn2play, nooblets" is not constructive feedback.

[Furyion]

Oh it's about rushers again all of a sudden? If anything rushers AREN'T affected by Rollers, because they run past EVERYTHING. Why don't you get off your high horse of "Everyone should just learn to be as 1337 as me" and actually give some constructive feedback? I don't like Moonicus, but at least he TRIES to explain his point. Telling people to "STFU and lrn2play, nooblets" is not constructive feedback.

learn better  skills run with better players ,and yes suck it up,deal with it , and get better as a player make smarter choices in your future  . A slight challenge ..rollers .lol..plz you should quit if they are so tough to over come..And stop making false  exuberant statements, abuseing neg rep system with such a sad temportanrum of a poor rebutle , truely a pathetic nature of your character ,your criticism is more harm than good. They are hear to stay have a nice time:) enjoy the rollers.

[RogueDarkJedi]

I hate how if there's more than one of them, you're going to be stunlocked for awhile.

[AftieI]

In that case you may as well say since you can just use your AoE ult every time a Roller pops up they are perfectly balanced and everyone should STFU. What happens when i'm a Trinity, hmm? No AoEs there! Should I just die then?

 

Why can't you people accept that the Roller is not challenging? It doesn't provide anything interesting to the table. All it does is take away from the gameplay. It has no distinct attack pattern. It doesn't interact with the environment. All it does is constantly roll at and stagger you repeatedly every time it so much as gently bumps against your ankle. And when there are more than 3, the only way out is to either mash the AoE button or hope they let you jump on a box, at which point the other dozen grineers immediately turn you into mince meat.

 

I used to despise Shield Lancers and their knockdown shield bashes. I still do. But they are FUN to fight. I can run around them to make them stop charging. I can charge them in turn with melee in a duel to see who gets the hit. A Mag can even use an ability to yank his shield off. When you are bashed by a Shield Lancer, you are punished for it fairly, but in turn it is FUN to fight a Shield Lancer, because there are multiple ways of counter-attacking.

 

The Rollers however do not provide that kind of fun. They are punishing without being an actual challenge. When your best hopes of killing a Roller is to hide on a box like an old woman hiding from a mouse (given that there are no Grineers around, which there are 90% of the time) or spray bullets at their general direction hoping their AI bugs out and they randomly get stuck on something, you know something is wrong with this enemy.

 

I suppose i may have been a little agressive with that post, allow me to tell you how I think of rollers and people who have issues with them exactly;

 

They add an intresting change in dynamic to the standard Grineer makeup, they force you to react diffrently to an incoming squad against you. You can hear them coming a mile away (unless you muted the sound or have far too loud music playing) How you choose to deal with the threat is up to you, but if you have trouble with it, try a diffrent tactic.

 

Every frame has a method of dealing with them with skills alone, not even bringing weapons into the mix, to use your own example: Trinity, use link, the rollers don't stagger you they stagger whoever you're linked to, even another roller, allowing you to easily pick them off one at a time (if you so desire) or let them stay because now their stagger is your stagger, link also is activated with a brief MOI (moment of Invulerability) meaning you can get it off even if a roller is about to hit you.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Because nobody wants them removed "so that NO Grineer enemy provides challenge". That's a lie, and you know it is a lie, and WE know that it's a lie, so why bother telling it? To momentarily appear smarter and more in control than those awful noobs who complain about a thing?

 

My point is that removing them does just that, remove enemy challenge, whether it is intentional or not. It's absolutely silly to think otherwise.

 

 

They should be removed because being stunlocked is not fun. The penalty for missing an enemy with a small hitbox, perfect turning, and no windup animation should not be "stunlocked for some random amount of time". Stunlock is death, because it's the same result: you don't get to play the game. Stunlock is worse than death, because you don't get to play the game, but you also feel like you should, and you're still getting shot while helpless.

 

You see small hitbox, perfect turning, no windup animation.

 

I see low HP, predictable attack pattern of rolling at you in a straight line, easily identifiable sound and visual sparks to illuminate the enemy profile for easier singling out amongst backgrounds, inability to attack you from certain vantage points. Several of their flaws that you can exploit.

 

As it was said before, Stunlocking to the point of death will happen very rarely. You have ways of dealing with Rollers before they reach you, they will never keep you permanently stunned for any longer than 4-5 seconds. Never in my entire experience of playing the game, even when I was terrible at fighting Rollers, did a group of them every stun me for longer than this amount of time, because they attack very erratically and with not discernible timeframe or pattern beyond "turn around and try again".

 

 

Once again, there can be an enemy that makes Grineer more challenging that isn't a terrible and terribly-designed enemy like the current Rollers. You want things forcing players out of cover? Okay, make it so some Grineer roller mines roll up to you, pop out spikes, and project a bubble that deals constant electrical damage. Now a roller gets you, you have to move away out of your advantageous position, but it doesn't stunlock you and you can still get away from it. Make it so the mini sticky mines thrown by Seekers don't blow up, they paint you as a target and make enemies lock on to you and start firing faster. Give Grineer back-rank medic units or shield projectors that force you to flank a group to get at the vulnerable one, because a head-on shootout just lets them heal. Do something that doesn't involve stunlocking, because stunlocking is awful.

 

The point of this thread is the discussion of Rollers. I agree that more enemy types for Grineer would be nice, and if your ideas are implemented, then maybe Rollers won't have a place and can be removed without affecting the challenge (unlikely). But if you want to suggest new enemy types, I suggest you make your own thread about it, as it isn't the point of this one.

 

Also, stuns are not inherently awful. A large part of the Tenno playstyle is mobility, and stuns and staggers are supposed to be a direct opposing punishment that is meant to be harsh and meaningful. If they did not stagger or stun, it would be impossible for any unit that can stun you to be a significant threat without resorting to ridiculous mechanics, such as instant death or heavy detriments. 1 second of stagger is not by itself a huge detriment, and if it happens in a group of enemies, it has essentially done its job of making itself more dangerous in the utility it provides for its other more damage-focused enemies.

 

Yes they will. They have had two grinders chain-stagger me, until either they, or the grineer around them - kill me. They don't need the programming to assist, they both independantly lock onto me and just keep stunlocking. 

 

Why was I near a door with two grinders? Because I had to go through to get to the objective? No I don't have enemy radar, and when the game provides that as a random drop none of the missions can be based off the assumption that players will have it. 

 

No, two Rollers will not stunlock you indefinitely. 7 might. 6 might. 2 will not unless you just happen to be stuck behind two crates and a wall with two rollers at your feet or some other obscure, ridiculously one-sided scenario.

 

Enemy Radar is an alert reward as well as a frame mod capable of being upgraded far beyond the artifacts potency. You should consider acquiring and using it to better improve your situational awareness.

 

 

"However, right now, in this beta, it is not. All maps and levels are balanced for cooperative play. Changing or removing Rollers will not change that. Reduced rates of special unit spawns in relation to players present potentially would. If you want balance for your solo experience, I suggest you ask in a new thread, because that is not the point of this one."

---

Says the person who brought up spawn rates in the first place -_-

 

Reduction of spawn rates was just an example. If you want proper balance for solo play, which may include spawn rates, I suggest you make another thread as it is not the purpose of this thread, and would be off-topic.

 

 

Because if I want to stay alive RIGHT NOW - I have to give priority to the snipers, lancers and commando's currently shooting at me. I'm not ignoring them because of their HP - I'm ignoring them because they're not killing me at this instant. Sure I can multi-task, I can take note of where they are, and where they're heading, while taking down my attackers, but my gun dosn't shoot in two directions at once.

 

Your target prioritizing needs some work. If Snipers, Lancers and Commandos are really the threats you need to worry about, I would be much more concerned with moving out of their field of view and firing lines in order to deal with the Rollers that can potentially stagger me, providing its allies MORE time to attack me. Many map tiles in the game have an abundance of cover for you to utilize, and ideally it should only take seconds to deal with Rollers, with their low HP and tendency to travel in the straightest of lines when approaching you.

 

If you, as you describe, continue to focus on those Lancers, you are still in their line of fire and field of view, while the Rollers are knocking you about because of your neglect to deal with them first, giving those enemies plenty of opportunity to fire upon you with impunity.

 

The bigger of the two threats is fairly obvious; the Rollers will indirectly support the other Grineer with its utility, while Grineer take time to advance upon you while you are out of their field of view as you deal with the Rollers first. You should always attempt to deal with the Rollers first and foremost unless the situation demands other action, in which case, you were in a bad situation long before Rollers showed up.

 

 

No really? I as a player have to adapt to hairy situations? You don't say... 

 

Yes. And failure to adapt will be punished. That's fundamental gameplay. Rather than complain about it and demand its removal, people should learn and become more skilled at the game. It's already a fact that it's possible, through the scores of people who deal with Rollers regularly with efficiency.

 

 

Really Moonicus - I respect you perspective, and for your courtesy in remaining as impartial about your points as possible. I can see, how, in many cases, my negative experiences with grinders, can largely be attributed as my own fault. The problem is, everything about the game can be simplified in that manner. Technically one could say that ANY bad experience in Warframe, is the players own fault for logging into the game in the first place. 

 

But that dosn't get DE the feedback it needs to improve the game - and at this stage in it's development, the game needs to be considering ways to make itself accessible to players of many different denominations. I don't really see that it's the time to be adding or removing content on the basis that "players just need to get better". Instead we and DE should be thinking, "how can this be made more accessible."

 

They problem with many games today is catering to several denominations. Warframe doesn't have to please everybody, it is not required to, and generally people will like it more if it doesn't.

 

My feedback about the status of Rollers in a positive manner has the same validity as complaints do. You may hope DE sees the negative feedback about Rollers and changes then, but I hope DE sees my positive feedback and reinforcement of their game mechanics so that it doesn't take away the fun that I enjoy.

 

How can we make this enemy challenging, but rewarding -  and the best way to do that is to provide multiple ways to combat them. I don't see we yet have that with grinders.  

 

I don't understand this line of thought at all. There are several, multiple ways of combating Rollers. Many of them differ from the usual strategy of other Grineer units, requiring more movement, more precise aim, different means of attack, and so on. This is directly adding variety to the otherwise stale gameplay utilized against Grineer.

[11.11.11]

 

 

Enemy Radar is an alert reward as well as a frame mod capable of being upgraded far beyond the artifacts potency. You should consider acquiring and using it to better improve your situational awareness.

 

 

I have it - I don't have any slots left on any of my reactor'd lvl 30 frames. I have perfectly good situational awareness thanks. 

[DanPaul7]

They see me rollin'
They hatin'...

[11.11.11]

They see me rollin'

They hatin'...

 

Genius. xD

[DanPaul7]

Genius. xD

I do try

[Depar]